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What Diamond Would Be Equal To Kay's Tolkowsky?


johndeere
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I am looking to purchase a ring down the road and my wife loves the tolkowsky round solitaire.  They are priced at 8500, HI in color and SI1 or SI2 depending on the one you find I guess.

 

 http://www.kay.com/en/kaystore/engagement---wedding/diamond-solitaire-ring-1-ct-round-cut-14k-white-gold-150902500--1/100006/100006.100008.100017

 

I started looking at whiteflash and similar sites, but I don't know what ecactly would compare there.  They have "ideal" and "signature ideal" diamonds.  I'm jut not very eduacted yet.

 

Can anyone point me to a ring that would be comparable to the tolkowsky?  Would it appear wider or is that something unique to kay's tolkowsky?

 

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Uhm. What exactly does your wife like of the Tolkowsky round solitaire?

 

If what she likes is the design of the ring, something very similar (cathedral solitaire with cross-wire) can be found very easily, since it's a pretty common design.

 

If she likes a nicely cut round diamond (be it H&A  as Kay's claim or not), that's also easy to find. And probably at a significantly cheaper price than at Kay's.

 

If she likes the name and mystique around the Tolkowsky name, then there aren't too many options, though I believe Tolkowsky also sell through retailers other than Kay's.

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Thanks for the reply.  She likes the look of the diamond primarily.  We compared it next to a leo and it is wider.  At first we thought it just appeared larger, but it is actually wider.  She likes how the smooth top of the diamond is wider than other diamonds of 1 ct.  Sorry I don't know the terms of diamonds!  Is this just because the tolkowsky brand is an ideal cut?  Would that mean that any diamond which is ideal cut would appear wider on top than one that isnt an ideal cut?  SOrry if my terms don't make sense, please let me know if I can't be understood haha.

 

It was a year or two ago that she and I were looking around for fun.  I was thinking of surprising her with one for our anniversary.  I still like the tolkowsky and I looked at one this week, but after looking online I have read that I could possibly get the same thing with saving a good amount of money.  

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I think what you mean by "wider" is that it has a larger table (which in turn makes me think it's not H&A, but never mind that for the moment). The table is the large, octagonal facet on the top of the diamond; are we talking of the same thing? Or do you mean that it has a larger diameter?

 

Both are possible, given the way in which Leo are usually cut... and both would tend to make the diamond look larger.

 

BTW - "ideal" means different things to different people, but generally a large table is not one of the attributes that people would look for in an "ideal cut".

 

One of the things I really dislike of Kay's site is that it is very difficult to understand what they are selling: "1 ct" means 0.95 - 1.05? 1.00 - 1.20? 0.70 - 1.30? G to H and SI1 to SI2 can make a difference of 50% on fair price, all else being equal, so what are they quoting "$8499.99" for?

 

In any case, I have to say that their prices are rarely if ever the most competitive. Here's 500 diamonds that are 1.00-1.05, G-SI1 (so at the top of the spec range provided), GIA-excellent cut with a large table, and every single one of them is $7500 or less; in fact the vast majority of them are below $7000 and the average price is below $6000. I rest my case. http://www.diamondreview.com/diamonds/?sortOrder=price&sortDesc=1&fShape=Rnd&fCaratLo=1.00&fCaratHi=1.05&fColorLo=G&fColorHi=G&fClarityLo=SI1&fClarityHi=SI1&fCutLo=exc&fCutHi=exc&fDepthLo=59.0&fDepthHi=62.0&fTableLo=59.0&fTableHi=61.0&fSymLo=&fSymHi=poor&fPolLo=&fPolHi=poor&fCulLo=&fCulHi=vlarge&fFlrLo=&fFlrHi=vstrong&fPriceLo=0&fPriceHi=7500&fLabGIA=1&adv=1

Edited by davidelevi
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thanks for the link, that's impressive!

 

 I guess my main question is, is there a common way to find a diamond of the same ct. that looks wider or is wider?

 

You were correct, I was talking about table above.  When compared side by side, the tolkowsky did have a wider table comparitive to it's size.  Also though, the tolkowsky was definitely wider in diamater than the leo as we compared side by side.  The tolkowsky was a wider diamond and looked quite a bit bigger.  So either the tolkowsky is just cut different than other diamonds in the store, or it's cut different than diamonds found anywhere, online too.  I'm just trying to figure that out.

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Without having any information (e.g. a grading report or a 3D scan of the Tolkowsky stone you saw), I'm purely speculating, but it's likely that the diamonds in the link above have a table and a diameter that's perfectly comparable with the Tolkowsky.

 

There are certain inescapable laws of physics that determine diameter of a diamond... and other laws that determine table width for a pleasant cut; of course there are variations, but I'd be really surprised if the diameter of the famous Tolkowsky were much more than 6.5 mm (if it was one round carat) and the table were more than 62% of that diameter. Leos can be (and look) quite a bit smaller because of the way they are faceted.

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I found some tolkowsky stones at jared which is the same as kay's.  I think that will give you some answers as far as the table and dimensions. Here is a link to a few:

 

http://design.jared-diamonds.com/loose-diamonds-search/?cut_grade=1&shape=princess,round&Nic=null

 

Going by the above link, maybe you can tell me if the tolkowsky are actually wider in diameter etc than a diamond I would find elsewhere.  Maybe the leos are narrower so I was thinkint tolkowsky are wider but in actuality it was just the leos being smaller in diameter.  Confusing!

 

After that, I tried to compare 2 stones that were almost identical.  The one found through this site is vastly cheaper!  I'm pretty sure I'm comparing apples to apples with these 2 and if I were to buy one like the link at diamondreview it would look a lot like the tolkowsky.  If I am wrong please let me know.  Thanks again for taking time to show me things.

 

http://design.jared-diamonds.com/diamonds/diamond/diam2348424/

 

 

http://www.diamondreview.com/diamonds/?sortOrder=price&sortDesc=1&fShape=Rnd&fCaratLo=1.00&fCaratHi=1.05&fColorLo=I&fColorHi=I&fClarityLo=SI2&fClarityHi=SI2&fCutLo=exc&fCutHi=exc&fDepthLo=61.5&fDepthHi=62.0&fTableLo=54.9&fTableHi=55.8&fSymLo=ideal&fSymHi=exc&fPolLo=exc&fPolHi=exc&fCulLo=&fCulHi=vlarge&fFlrLo=none&fFlrHi=faint&fPriceLo=0&fPriceHi=5654&fLabGIA=1&adv=1

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I found some tolkowsky stones at jared which is the same as kay's.  I think that will give you some answers as far as the table and dimensions. Here is a link to a few:

 

http://design.jared-diamonds.com/loose-diamonds-search/?cut_grade=1&shape=princess,round&Nic=null

 

Going by the above link, maybe you can tell me if the tolkowsky are actually wider in diameter etc than a diamond I would find elsewhere.  Maybe the leos are narrower so I was thinkint tolkowsky are wider but in actuality it was just the leos being smaller in diameter.  Confusing!

 

After that, I tried to compare 2 stones that were almost identical.  The one found through this site is vastly cheaper!  I'm pretty sure I'm comparing apples to apples with these 2 and if I were to buy one like the link at diamondreview it would look a lot like the tolkowsky.  If I am wrong please let me know.  Thanks again for taking time to show me things.

 

http://design.jared-diamonds.com/diamonds/diamond/diam2348424/

 

 

http://www.diamondreview.com/diamonds/?sortOrder=price&sortDesc=1&fShape=Rnd&fCaratLo=1.00&fCaratHi=1.05&fColorLo=I&fColorHi=I&fClarityLo=SI2&fClarityHi=SI2&fCutLo=exc&fCutHi=exc&fDepthLo=61.5&fDepthHi=62.0&fTableLo=54.9&fTableHi=55.8&fSymLo=ideal&fSymHi=exc&fPolLo=exc&fPolHi=exc&fCulLo=&fCulHi=vlarge&fFlrLo=none&fFlrHi=faint&fPriceLo=0&fPriceHi=5654&fLabGIA=1&adv=1

The first link points to a list of stones of all shapes and sizes, including rounds, pears and emerald cuts... which will all have different sizes and table %. So... not much use.

 

The second link points to a single diamond, which however has a number of interesting characteristics for the discussion:

 

1. It has a table of 55%, which is - for a modern cut - at the small end, not at the large end.

 

2. It has a diameter of 6.47 mm (average), which is "normal" for a well cut round of 1.01 ct

 

3. It is graded by GSI, not GIA or AGS. This means that I would not consider the colour, clarity or cut grading as reliable. Search the forum for "EGL" for a few threads where the importance of the grading lab is discussed, and for the reasons why diamonds end up with different grading reports. Here is one: http://www.diamondreview.com/forum/topic/9708-help-selecting-2ct-oval-diamond/?hl=egl+report#entry49733

 

4. It is graded (by GSI) as "I-SI2", and priced at $7600. On the Diamond Finder there are over 1000 stones that are GIA/AGS graded I/SI2 (so much more reliably), EX or ID cut, and each and every one of them is below $7000.

 

The third link also generates a list of stones, which are all significantly cheaper than the one at Jared. Not sure they are actually a fair comparison because with SI (and especially SI2) the visibility of the inclusion plays a major part in setting price, and we don't know much about this aspect without seeing the stones. (On the other hand, even though you have selected for similar table and depth percentages, these will typically NOT have a big effect on price, while the overall cut grade will).

Edited by davidelevi
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Sorry, didn't realize it was different shapes in the first link.  

 

Well, I've done a lot of research today and learned more than ever on diamonds in one day.  I'm still pretty clueless though haha.

 

I'm thinking that the tolkowsky wasn't actually bigger than an average ct. stone, perhaps the leo was a little smaller or smaller in actual ct. rating as well.   I've been looking at dimensions for different stones on other sites against tolkowsky and they are all similar.

 

I have been finding that the diamonds online seem to be of much higher quality.  The ones I saw in person at kay's were graded gsi however.  Like mentioned above I believe the difference is gsi vs gia since the numbers can all be the same.  For instance, the tolkowsky I looked at under magnification had a rather large whatever you call it right on the top.  The diamonds I've looked at at whiteflash don't have them on the same grade levels.

 

I'm wondering now, how much on average does the gsi grade differ from gia?  Do they seem to go one step higher etc. on average?  I'm sure it varies from diamond to diamond, but I was wondering if you could point me to what diamonds there are that would be on the same level as the tolkowsky here, http://design.jared-diamonds.com/diamonds/diamond/diam2348424/ 

 

I am pretty sure this stone is very similar to the one I saw in store.  Since this is for our anniversary and we have kids and all now, I would rather find a diamond on this level that I liked in person than pay the same amount for a diamond that is much much better.  (if that makes sense)  In other words, can you point me to a diamond that would be similar in real life to the one above?

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http://beyond4cs.com/reviews/leo-diamond/ according to this, leos are cut a way that they have a smaller diameter than other stones like tolkowsky.  I've nixed both as possible candidates but thought someone else searching the same thing might find that interesting.  So, in my first post I thought the tolkowsky was cut bigger, in actuality it was the leo was smaller.

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I'm wondering now, how much on average does the gsi grade differ from gia?  Do they seem to go one step higher etc. on average?

If you are buying one stone, averages are irrelevant... what matters is the stone at hand. The big problem in moving from one lab to the other is not "one grade above or one below", is the fact that most labs are highly inconsistent in their grading. One stone may be 6 or even 8 grades out in all (colour + clarity), and another may be spot on. The average deviation may be relevant to someone buying hundreds of stones; you are not.

 

FWIW, based on the video, I'd say that particular diamond is not an I, but a K or an L. And the SI2 clarity grade is probably correct, but what a nasty place to have an inclusion.

 

I'm sure it varies from diamond to diamond, but I was wondering if you could point me to what diamonds there are that would be on the same level as the tolkowsky here, http://design.jared-diamonds.com/diamonds/diamond/diam2348424/

 

I am pretty sure this stone is very similar to the one I saw in store.  Since this is for our anniversary and we have kids and all now, I would rather find a diamond on this level that I liked in person than pay the same amount for a diamond that is much much better.  (if that makes sense)  In other words, can you point me to a diamond that would be similar in real life to the one above?

There's several ways of interpreting this question:

 

1. "Similar" to the extent that it would probably be an L and borderline I1 clarity? This will maximise physical similarity, but it has at the very least a risk of not looking very nice (and a virtual certainty of looking quite yellow)? These will be much cheaper than $7600.

 

2. "Similar" as in (properly graded) I/SI2 diamonds of about 1 carat that are well cut (it seems we have established that the "big table" issue was not a real driver)? These will still be considerably cheaper, will look white in most circumstances, but you may still have some surprises from clarity.

 

3. Similar - yet still lower - in price, but overall better? Diamonds of about 1 carat that cost less than $7600, but are graded a little bit better or for which there are at least images available, so that the surprise factor on clarity is much lower. You could for example aim for an H/VS2 for $6500 or so.

 

Not sure what your preference is at this point...

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I'll probably end up going with option 2 or 3 to hopefully get a nice stone.  I know it's all preference, but I have been looking at whiteflash a lot as they have nice photos.  They have some diamonds that are "a cut above".  It seems like whatever my budget ends up I will be looking at choices such as this,

 

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3273922.htm

 

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3138165.htm

 

what would you recommend?  A diamond of better color slightly smaller size, or a full ct. but something like I color?  Would non diamond experts like myself and my wife be able to see much difference?

 

thanks again for all your help, I appreciate you taking so much time.  I checked out your link but didn't see any diamonds in my price range etc.

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It is important at this point for you to actually look at diamonds and decide for yourself if you can see color in an I colored stone.  Please make sure you are looking at GIA graded diamonds.  A trip to a local retailer, even if you don't plan on purchasing anything, would be a good start.  I have many customers would cannot see color in an I, especially if the stone is extremely well cut, and about the same number who see the color right away, regardless of cut.  This is now a question only you can answer for yourself.

 

good luck

Edited by GeorgeDI
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I'll probably end up going with option 2 or 3 to hopefully get a nice stone.  I know it's all preference, but I have been looking at whiteflash a lot as they have nice photos.  They have some diamonds that are "a cut above".  It seems like whatever my budget ends up I will be looking at choices such as this,

 

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3273922.htm

 

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3138165.htm

 

what would you recommend?  A diamond of better color slightly smaller size, or a full ct. but something like I color?  Would non diamond experts like myself and my wife be able to see much difference?

 

thanks again for all your help, I appreciate you taking so much time.  I checked out your link but didn't see any diamonds in my price range etc.

I agree with George: sensitivity to colour is an individual factor. Make sure you test it with properly graded diamonds (GIA or AGS), and once you decide whether you can live with "I" or you need an "H" or lower the rest becomes a little easier...

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Thanks again.  I plan on doing some shopping and checking out a few diamonds in person.  That will help me see some differences like color, size etc.  I think only having kay's and zales around can make it tricky since their grading is apparantely different than gia etc.  ANyways, I look forward to seeing some different stones in person.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Kevin,

 

Welcome to DiamondReview.

 

Alist status comes from engaging in discourse and saying true and useful, or at least interesting things.  So let's discourse.  I'll start.

 

I looked at your site and found it sort of interesting.  www.peerdiamonds.com.  It's a virtual consignment place (meaning you don't take physical possession of the stone) with an escrow service attached.   That's all good so far, consignment is a valuable service, but in all of the explanation about what you think your competitors might charge and transparency in general, you never mention what YOU cost. 

 

Maybe I'm being unclear.  You've got a nifty little graphic showing how jewelers get a cut on their sales, and a parallel graphic showing that you're doing exactly the same thing, which is fine by the way, but you imply that your margins are lower without actually saying what these margins are.  I'm skeptical.  Filling out the seller form generates an explicitly non-negotiable net price to the seller, but never says what the selling price will be and the buying side gives selling prices but no further clues.  Again, I don't have a great problem with this specifically except that your whole pitch is that you will do it cheaper and a giant portion of your pitch is that you're more transparent on these things than some theoretical competitor.  Really?  From looking at the numbers, it doesn't seem that way and a casual check actually raises more questions than answers.  I'm definitely not seeing transparency.  Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place on your site.

 

For example, a 1.11/H/SI1 diamond is listed on your site right now for sale at $5070.00.

 

When I enter the data for that exact stone in your system for calculating selling prices, it says that it'll bring $5,790.00 net to the seller.  :blink:

 

Comparable offers from competitors in the database here start at $5140.

 

No doubt this one is merely an error and I'm not going to take the time to do a lot of this but I'm sure you can see why I'm confused.  It's the first one I tried.

 

Here's the stone I'm talking about.

 

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?reportno=1179605012&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&pagename=GIA%2FDispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547

All of this said, by the way, If you actually want to participate in this conversation we should probably move it to a new thread since it has nothing whatever to do with Kays, Tolkowski, or anything else that the original poster was asking about.

Edited by denverappraiser
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