Jump to content

Advice On 1.0 Round F Vs1 Diamond


stevenj1224
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi,  I would appreciate your advice on a diamond that I just bought (engagement ring) from my local jeweler...have dealt with him for many years.  The diamond looks nice, but after looking at the GIA diamond grading report I have several questions and would appreciate your help.I have attached a photo of the ring set for general info (not very good, but the best I could do):

 

GIA Diamond Grading Report:  1/27/95    #8535477

Round brilliant

6.50 - 6.57 x 3.88 mm

1.00 carats

Depth:  59.4%

Table:  64%

Girdle:  Medium to very thick, faceted

Culet: Very small

Polish:  Very Good

Symmetry:  Good

Color Grade:  F

Fluorescence: Strong blue

Crown Angles less than 30 degrees

(in diagram, 6 tiny crystals marked in top view)

I paid $11,000 for the diamond itself.

 

The diamond looks colorless to me and seems brilliant in sunlight, but I don't know have anything to compare it to.  I would like your help on the following:

1)  Should I be concerned that the diamond was graded in 1995?  Why so long ago?  Should it have been regraded under the newer GIA criteria I've read about?

2)  Because of the older grading, it doesn't have a cut grading.  From what I've been able to read on the internet, the table % is high and the crown angles are lower than ideal?

3)  I've read a lot of pros/cons about strong blue fluorescence.  In this F color grade diamond I don't think there is noticeable milkiness, but again, I don't know what to compare it to.

4) Finally, I know that diamond retail prices vary widely, and this is a local jeweler, not a chain, but I just want to confirm that his is a reasonable price (I don't mind paying a premium to my local jeweler, assuming he is being fair with me).

Thank you very much for your help.

S.post-134541-0-16831100-1411675354_thumb.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One additional point...  I am still waiting for the official appraisal from the jeweler to be sent to me in a week or so... the one to use for insurance purposes.  I did inquire with him about the blue fluorescence and he said that if would not be noticeable in regular light.  He offered to order a new stone with no fluorescence if that was a problem for me.

Edited by stevenj1224
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The reason he kept the 1995 paperwork is probably because it's a GIA-good cut.  That makes it harder to sell, not easier.   Yes, it's because of the crown angle and the table.  The only other issue is with condition.  Given you're buying from a jeweler who you trust and who has presumably done a microscopic examination, I wouldn't be too worried but ask.

 

The 'noticeable' milkiness in sunlight is rare but it's also better described as 'screamingly obvious'.  If you've had it in the sun, you would know if this was an issue.  Otherwise, don't worry about it. 

 

You can look up comparable stones using the 'diamond finder' utility at the top of the page.  It's free, fast and anonymous.  

 

What does the insurance appraisal have to do with it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for responding.  The comparable good cut F VS1 diamonds in the diamond finder above have an average value around $7,000.  Is this a wholesale price?  Otherwise it appears that I paid an excessive amount for the diamond ($11,000).  When ordering the diamond I asked for an F (I thought colorless would be the most important), VS1 (no defects visible to the naked eye) but I didn't understand enough at that time to ask about cut or the fluorescence. 

Do I understand that the presumed "good" cut of this diamond, with a larger table and shallower crown angle is not nearly as brilliant as a better cut rating?  Is this visibly noticeable?  The diamond looks colorless and bright to me, but again, I don't know much about diamonds and don't have anything to compare it to.

My jeweler said he could order another diamond if I am not satisfied with the current one.  Based upon what I have learned here, would the following request be appropriate?  A 1.0 ct, F, VS1 with GIA grading since 2005 which includes a very good cut with better table and crown angle proportions, and no flourescence?  I'm not quite sure how to address the price of the diamond based upon what I have found here...

I wish I had researched this more before ordering the diamond, but I was trusting my local jeweler who I known for many years and trusted to make sure the diamond was good.  Thanks in advance for your advice.

P.S.  Regarding the insurance appraisal paperwork, I thought that would be an independent review of the diamond which hopefully would show that the diamond was worth the amount that I paid... but evidently this is not an expert appraisal?

Edited by stevenj1224
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for responding.  The comparable good cut F VS1 diamonds in the diamond finder above have an average value around $7,000.  Is this a wholesale price?

No, these are retail prices. As you mentioned above, you would be paying a premium for shopping locally, but $4000 (your number, but see below) sounds excessive to me. I assume that the $11000 price you mentioned above does not include the setting.

 

Do I understand that the presumed "good" cut of this diamond, with a larger table and shallower crown angle is not nearly as brilliant as a better cut rating?  Is this visibly noticeable?

Is not just a question of brilliance (brightness) - though without having more information on your diamond it is difficult to be very specific. People tend to like brightness, but they also value fire (coloured light) and scintillation (sparkle and contrast), which is where I suspect your diamond would fall short compared to a truly well cut one. Would you notice? I don't know, but there is an easy test you can make: go to another jeweller with decently cut stones and ask them to show you what they have that is GIA Excellent or AGS-0. Most people see easily the difference between "Good" and "Excellent" cut grades.

 

Based upon what I have learned here, would the following request be appropriate?  A 1.0 ct, F, VS1 with GIA grading since 2005 which includes a very good cut with better table and crown angle proportions, and no flourescence?  I'm not quite sure how to address the price of the diamond based upon what I have found here...

I don't see any point in asking for VG cut when for $11k you can get Excellent or AGS Ideal (sticking with F/VS1). As to whether you should stick with F/VS1, again, the only test you should make is to see for yourself. Most people cannot tell F from H without having the diamond loose, in appropriate lighting and with a comparison. Same for (most) SI1 vs. VS1 without a loupe.

 

Price is a different question again. There's 30 or so diamonds here that are comparable to yours: http://www.diamondreview.com/diamonds/?sortOrder=price&sortDesc=1&fShape=Rnd&fCaratLo=1.00&fCaratHi=1.05&fColorLo=F&fColorHi=F&fClarityLo=VS1&fClarityHi=VS1&fCutLo=good&fCutHi=poor&fDepthLo=50.0&fDepthHi=80.0&fTableLo=40.0&fTableHi=80.0&fSymLo=&fSymHi=poor&fPolLo=&fPolHi=poor&fCulLo=&fCulHi=vlarge&fFlrLo=strong&fFlrHi=vstrong&fPriceLo=0&fPriceHi=1000000&adv=1

 

Prices go from below $5000 to over $9000, with the median around $6500. Some will have the problem with fluorescence that you discussed above, and will be priced lower because of that; none gets within reasonable distance of $11000. It is worth noting that your diamond is cut in a way that is today relatively uncommon, and is visually larger - thus more commercially valuable - than most "good cut" stones cut more recently; it still remains a poorly cut stone, and it may well (subjectively) look worse than one of those.

 

The real issue, as I noted above, is that for less than $10k you can get a diamond that will visually blow this one away in every respect. Putting myself in your shoes, if I could I'd get my money back and restart from scratch, including deciding whether I want to continue working with this jeweller or not.

 

P.S.  Regarding the insurance appraisal paperwork, I thought that would be an independent review of the diamond which hopefully would show that the diamond was worth the amount that I paid... but evidently this is not an expert appraisal?

The issue is not "expertise" (though it may also come to that), but "independence", and what question did you ask of the appraiser. If the appraiser has been paid for, selected or suggested by the retailer, independence is out of the window - it is no longer your expert speaking. Does it matter? In a case like this, a lot. In addition, "for insurance purposes" means that the valuation is usually referring to replacing the item new, locally, at full retail prices. Not "this is the best deal you could get for a similar object" - which is normally what shopping around is aimed at. Whether you paid a fair price for the item is a different question still; it is not a given that it is answered in an appraisal for insurance purposes, and very unlikely to be answered in an unbiased way by the jeweller himself.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

P.S.  Regarding the insurance appraisal paperwork, I thought that would be an independent review of the diamond which hopefully would show that the diamond was worth the amount that I paid... but evidently this is not an expert appraisal?

It's not a second opinion if it comes from the same source as the first. 

 

I'm not calling your appraiser wrong mind you.  It may very well be entirely correct and entirely suitable for your insurance needs (or not), but it would still be the correct answer to the wrong question, or at least a different question than the one you're asking. 

Edited by denverappraiser
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for volunteering your expertise and time on this forum.  It is a great help to people like myself who seldom enter the world of diamond buying.  I thought I would provide some detail on my discussion with my jeweler in the hope that it will also be of interest to others searching for an engagement ring diamond.

First, I should say that my local jeweler is well established and respected, has all 5-star ratings online (often for many things other than diamonds) , and often provides services free of charge for his customers, such as polishing watch crystals and rings, repairing jewelry, rosaries, etc.

I called this morning and told the jeweler that I was not satisfied with the diamond and wanted to exchange it for one of better cut with no fluorescence.  When I arrived later in the day he told me no problem of all, but it bothered me some that he had already ordered a replacement diamond for me. 

The basic GIA specs of the new diamond are:  1.00 ct, F, VS1, Cut: Ex, Polish: Ex, Symm: Ex, Depth: 64.2%, Table: 54%, Fluor: None.  This seemed to be the basic parameters that I was going to ask for.  I asked for the GIA report number so I could look it up, but he said he would not have the number until the stone arrived. 

I told him that I expected to pay a premium for his local service and expertise, but that based upon my research that "we" had overpaid for the original diamond, due to the poor cut (table, crown angle, etc).  I also told him that I expected that the new diamond should be well within the $11K price that I originally paid for the diamond (excluding the settings/rings).

He justified his price by showing me the most recent Rappaport price listing which I couldn't read specifically, but it gave a much higher price for a 1.0 ct, F, VS1 diamond.  I responded that I didn't understand the chart because diamond prices for a 1.0/F/VS1 diamond can vary thousands of dollars due to cut and other parameters.  In fact the previous diamond average a retail price of approx. $6500 due to poor cut and fluorescence.

He confided that he had the previous diamond in stock, and I remember that he had priced it using the same Rappaport chart, which he said at the time was the most current weekly pricing.

So based upon the information that you have provided me, this is what I think happened.  My local jeweler decided that since he had a 1.0 ct, F, VS1 diamond in his current stock, even though of poor cut, decided to sell it to me at a premium price listed on his Rappaport price list.  When I returned after doing research on the diamond and he determined that I understood more of the basics of diamond appraisal, he ordered (hopefully) the diamond he should have obtained in the first place.

I decided to stay with the jeweler and continue the purchase because I like very much the rings and setting and didn't want to start over...thinking that the jeweler would insure that the purchase is done correctly this time (he is reordering the new diamond within the price that I have already paid, and I still think he is making a good profit).

I am hoping that based upon the information that you have provided to me on this forum and website that I will end up with a much nicer diamond than would have been the case originally.  Thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, I just found this diamond proportion chart on another site which seems to indicate that the new diamond that was ordered has a depth which is much to high of a percentage. 

 

ROUND BRILLIANT   Excellent Very Good Good Fair / Poor Depth % 59.0% – 61.0% 58.5% – 58.9% or 61.1% – 62.5% 58.0% – 58.4% or 62.6% – 63.0% Outside the ranges Table % 52.4% – 57.5 % 57.6% – 59.5% 59.6% – 62.5% Outside the ranges Ratio 1.00 : 1.00 1.001 – 1.005 : 1.00 1.006 – 1.01 : 1.00 Outside the ranges Girdle Medium, Facted Thin to Thick, Facted Very Thin to Very Thick, Facted Outside the ranges

 

I am really frustrated at this point.  Am I being too picky about all of these parameters?  I thought that if I added a GIA "excellent cut" into the specifications that it would take care of these proportions and would be a nice diamond, but evidently I still don't understand how all of this works.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1) Rapaport "prices" are average wholesale asking prices. The sheet might be relevant to a trader - and when it is, it is usually to determine whether prices have gone up or down compared to a previous period, not to determine price on a specific deal. It is TOTALLY irrelevant in any retail transaction, and you have explained why yourself. Stick to your guns, and remember (and if necessary remind the jeweller), that no matter what Rap may print, these diamonds are for sale to consumers right now, and you may buy one as well as one of his.

 

Incidentally, he knows this, and to me that's two strikes against him (the first one is selling a diamond with a 1995 report - he knows full well why he didn't "update" it, just like he knows that Rap does not mark real prices for anyone, and particularly for consumers).

 

2) Ignore ANY proportion charts that list only depth and table. They are not only useless, but outright misleading.

 

3) I don't think you are being too picky, but from the info you posted neither diamond seems to be a top flight cut. GIA Excellent is a pretty good start, but if you want really a super cut (and for your budget you should), then other information is required (or at least a careful reading of the report prior to ordering, and then verifying what you got by seeing).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1) Rapaport "prices" are average wholesale asking prices. 

Not even that.  Rap is a starting point for wholesale negotiations.  Where it goes from there has to do with grading reliability, cut, payment terms, dealer relationships and other minutia.  'Discounts' can range from zero or even a premium to easily 50%.  As mentioned above, in a one-off type of transaction it can be very deceptive.  A far better way to compare prices is to compare against real offers of real stones from competitive sellers.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for your responses.  I have an additional question while I am waiting to see the diamond the jeweler ordered for me (1.00 ct, F, VS1, Cut: Ex, Polish: Ex, Symm: Ex, Depth: 64.2%, Table: 54%, Fluor: None... I won't have additional measurements until I see the GIA report.)

 

My question is about the depth of this diamond and the GIA rating of excellent.  Since my last meeting with my jeweler I've read quite a bit about the GIA cut rating process and watched GIA videos on their grading process.  It seems to me the GIA cut rating of excellent takes into account many factors that go into a diamond's appearance, and in the end I've seen many comments regarding cut such as this one "If you purchase a certified diamond graded as “Excellentâ€, you can rest assured you’ll receive an exquisite stone with high levels of brilliance, fire, and scintillation."

 

At the same time I've also read several articles that say never buy a diamond with a depth of 64% or greater (and also  combined with a small table size) for a variety of reasons, and the following GIA chart seems to indicate that a diamond with greater than 63% depth cannot be given an excellent cut rating (lower right table on chart below): 

 

http://www.diamondcut.gia.edu/pdfs/estimating_cut_grade_chart_lowres.pdf

 

The jeweler wrote down for me the basic GIA ratings for this diamond and the cut, polish and symmetry were all rated as excellent, and I assumed that this would mean a diamond with brilliance, fire and scintillation.

 

So I am very confused on this entire cut rating process.  I am anxious to see what this diamond looks like, and how it compares to the previous diamond, which had almost the reserve depth and table dimensions and was considered a "good" cut in our discussion above.

 

Thanks in advance for any further information.

S.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The way in which GIA grades cut involves depth as a derived parameter (from angles and girdle thickness), not a direct input into the grading algorithm. As such it's possible (though unlikely) that a 64% depth may fall into "Excellent". If it doesn't, it's equally very possible that a 64% "Very Good" would only be smaller than the best cut stones, but otherwise look, well, excellent. However this is all speculation until we (you!) get more info from the jeweller: ideally the GIA report number, but lacking that at least crown and pavilion angles.

 

You can find the free GIA cut estimation algorithm here: http://www.gia.edu/facetware?login. FWIW, no matter how I try, I cannot get a depth above 63% to come out as EX on the estimator, never mind 64%.

 

The main reason for discarding "high depth" diamonds is that they look smaller; not necessarily less bright or lively than others, but definitely smaller.

 

GIA Excellent covers a lot of different looks - which one can regard both as a strength and a weakness of GIA cut grading - but I have never seen a GIA EX cut looking "bad" for reasons that have to do with the cut. I have however seen GIA EX that I like significantly more than others...

 

The reason why Neil said the first stone would likely be a "good" cut, BTW, is the indication that it had a crown angle below 30 degrees, together with the very large table; the depth of 59% is not per se a bad sign.

 

On the cut grading system, you may find this article useful, since it explains what factors GIA took into account when developing their cut system in the early 2000s: http://diamondcut.gia.edu/pdf/cut_fall2004.pdf

Edited by davidelevi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi.  Thanks again for all of your expert advice. I am going to pick up my diamond engagement ring tomorrow, assuming that it passes my final inspection.  As a result of my questions regarding cut, overall depth, the final diamond that was procured by the jeweler is GIA Report 2176798701.  The jeweler says it is a beautiful diamond (we'll see) and I found two almost identical diamonds in the diamond finder above (1157417315 and 1179702363).  I also put it through the "cut grade" calculator I found elsewhere on this site and it came out with a score of 93.75, which was an "ideal" rating.  From everything I have learned from your information and other sites I have visited this appears to me to be a very good diamond.  Would appreciate any other comments prior to my examining the diamond tomorrow.  Thanks again for all of your help. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think there is a "cut grade calculator" linked to THIS site. But never mind. On paper, it looks like a nice diamond (though I personally would prefer a smaller table). Real proof of the pudding is in the seeing - so, good luck tomorrow, and let us know what you find out!

 

Link to the GIA report, for those that don't want to cut-and-paste numbers but may want to add their comment/opinion: http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?reportno=2176798701&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&pagename=GIA%2FDispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547

Edited by davidelevi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks everyone, who contributed to this thread.  The diamond referenced immediately above is very, very nice, and I appreciate all of your assistance in helping educate me to make a better diamond purchase.  If doing it again I procure the diamond directly from sources on the internet to eliminate the middleman/local jeweler markup, but overall, I am very satisfied with my purchase. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks everyone, who contributed to this thread.  The diamond referenced immediately above is very, very nice, and I appreciate all of your assistance in helping educate me to make a better diamond purchase.  If doing it again I procure the diamond directly from sources on the internet to eliminate the middleman/local jeweler markup, but overall, I am very satisfied with my purchase. 

 

Hi Steven,

 

Are you sure you purchased the diamond with GIA Cert 2176798701?

 

I ran the three you provided through our cut score calculator and that one came up for sale along with another one.

 

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R101-PELKP3 - this is the stone on our site.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, that is the number of the GIA certificate that I have, dated 7/29/14.  I saw the diamond on your site and assumed that you were offering the same stone from a separate supplier (I think I remember seeing you state that you did not keep any stones in inventory).  I also have an independent insurance appraisal by a GG(GIA), N.A.J.A. member appraiser that states that GIA 2176798701 is laser inscribed on the girdle edge.  Please let me know if there is some problem with my diamond.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think there is any problem - it's quite common for stones to show up in multiple (virtual) inventory lists for days or even weeks after a sale has been closed.

 

If you have any doubts, go back to the appraiser and ask him/her to show you how the diamond matches the report under a microscope (the inscription can be duplicated, though it's very unlikely, but the characteristics such as dimensions, inclusions, etc. cannot).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
  • Create New...