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kay1

Opinion On This Diamond

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Hi!

 

So currently, i've picked this diamond, because frankly it's a lot of carat for the price, and has GIA triple Ex rating.

 


($15k)

 

That said it has a very low HCA tool score (5.0). Being from bluenile they don't provide idealscope images so I have no idea what it will actually look like till it arrives. I could of course check it out and send it back to have the diamond changed, but that's a lot of hassle i'd rather avoid if possible.

 

I've now seen diamonds such as this:

 


(about $20k)

 

They provide the GCAL certificate which does show the light return. What's your opinions, should i:

 

A) Wait for the HCA 5.0 diamond to arrive and see if i'm happy with it, return it if not.

B) Switch to the signature ideal diamond above (or similar)

C) Some other option.

 

Oh, and I know I could get bigger for cheaper but i want an IF or FL for sentimental reasons. I'm flexible on the colour, but H is a good solid medium I think, going higher drastically increases the price, and I think H is 'eye - white' from what i read?

 

The original ring is due to ship on wednesday, so I have a day or so to decide, after which they will probably have set it already. I'm looking for the 1.5+ mark in diamond, and I just noticed that 1.5 to 1.7 seem similar prices - price seems to depend on the particular diamond you find rather than the carat size in that range (on BN anyway).

 

Oh and i'm UK based, and want their Monique Lhullier Pave Petal setting, so ideally don't want to switch to another supplier unless there's a drastic difference and I can find another nice setting (Micropave is another option).

 

I keep looking at these sites every day stressing over if i've made the right decision (on the ring not to get engaged  )

 

HELP!

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I wouldn't put much stake in the HCA score here but if it was me, I would sure like to see it before it's set.  My understanding is that they don't take returns afterwards.  Check the rules.  Any idea if this is shipping from the US or UK?  Will the GCAL/Signature one be 'better'?  Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it.  There's a giant taste component here and although they do have pretty good taste, it may not be the same as yours. 

 

The reason HCA didn't like it is because it's what they call a steep/deep.  That's the high crown angle paired with the high pavilion angle.  The GCAL one is not.  Personally, I don't care for that look either.  That said, the vast majority of people can't tell the difference (which is why GIA included it in the 'excellent' range).

Edited by denverappraiser

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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Hi!

 

Thanks for your reply :)

 

They do actually have a 30 day returns policy, so the debate for me is weather to wait for this to arrive, and send it back for a different diamond if it's not very good, or to just go for the better diamond right off.

 

Having read what you said, the first option sounds better, as going for the second doesn't actually guarantee anything.  I did ask the same question on pricescope, but as you can imagine the low HCAtool score set them into bad bias right off.

 

I've also just read that the images on the (bluenile version of the) GCAL report aren't actually that useful to determine anything, and a real ideal-scope image is what's really needed.  I'm not sure if they are referring to an old style BN GCAL report or the same type as can be seen with that diamond here:

 

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-cert-viewer?cert_pid=LD04034214&cert_num=2

 

Considering the 30 day returns policy, and the info (or lack of) on the GCAL report and certificate, am i right in concluding I may as well wait for this diamond to arrive and see what happens.  I think my only loss would be return shipping.

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I'm not sure an idealscope image would tell you much that you don't already know.  There will be significant 'leakage' off of the central axis where light is reflected back in a direction OTHER than straight up the middle.  GIA doesn't count this as a defect, Garry Holloway does.  I'm mostly with Garry here (he's the manufacturer of the idealscope as well as the 'H' in HCA) but GIA does have something of a point. 

 

You're risk here is pretty low.  Chances are good that either one will be lovely.  The issue is whether or not it's the most excellent within the range of GIA excellent cuts.  Exactly the same issue applies to the IF clarity.  The GIA rule is that there be no visible inclusions to a trained observer and in the face up position at 10x.  Obviously there's some arbitrary things to that and it would be possible for you to apply a higher standard if you wish.  Say 20x.  Or nothing visible from other directions as well.  We could call that 'super flawless'.  That's no more flawless either, there's going to be someone who wants to use 100x and call theirs 'better'.  Trust me, I'm not picking on you for choosing IF for symbolic reasons, I'm just pointing out that the definition of IF is important, it doesn't actually mean what it sounds like, and the same rule applies to EXCELLENT.  You're trying to parse it using a methodology that's not widely accepted and specifically not part of the GIA grading standards.

 

One of the biggest criticisms of GIA is that the 'excellent' cut grade is fairly broad and includes something like 40% of the new stones being cut.  People WANT to narrow it down.   That was never the intended purpose of the HCA, but that's what it's become.  That's not the original point of the GCAL or ASET images either, but they too get used for that purpose.  There are other approaches as well.  It's a very problematic path.  The critics say that GIA sold out to the industry by making the range so big.  The supporters point out that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Both are right.   The chances that you'll be happy with the first stone are really quite high.  The tricky question is whether you would be MORE happy with the second, or at least $5000 happier.  This is a much more difficult question.  I've not seen either stone.  Neither have you.  For that matter, neither has Blue Nile or even GCAL.  Even after it arrives and whichever one you buy, you'll only be seeing one of them, so you'll still have no basis for to go from.  That's part of the downside of shopping at long distance. 

 

If you were in the US and you had the credit limit on your card, I would suggest you buy both, get them appraised together in a standardized environment where you could look at them along with an expert of your choosing, and pick one.  Send them both back together and tell them which to set.  Then have the appraiser 'update' the report on the one you choose to describe the finished ring.  You may still want to do this but there's a tricky piece with Her Majesty's tax collectors and passing through customs 3 times (2 stones in and out plus the reimport of the ring) as well as the price of all of this shipping.  That's why I asked if these were in stock in their UK distribution office or if they'll be shipping from the US.  For a US shopper this 'wastes' a few hundred dollars and a week or so.  For you this may well be upwards of a thousand when you add everything up. 


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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Actually, since Blue Nile UK is a UK VAT-registered business, the biggest problem is taken care of: if you return a stone, they'll refund the VAT and manage any implications of this with HMRC themselves. EU duty on unmounted stones is 0% (2.5% on finished pieces), so if BN can they will have the stone set in the UK, but check with them exactly what they will refund.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Best would be if you can manage both on your CC and compare them side-by-side and keep the one you like. Being  that they are a UK presence you will not be out the VAT and ancillary taxes.


Barry
www.exceldiamonds.com
@Exceldiamonds on Twitter

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It's arrived with the original diamond. What do you think? If I'm reading it right there's some leakage on the bottom right of the table?

 

It does sparkle a lot under light, but under dim light I do notice the table is a little dead. I do many have anything to compare it to really tho, so I'm not sure if this is just how diamonds are!

 

Opinions?

post-134052-0-32796600-1393683269_thumb.jpg

post-134052-0-27731300-1393683320_thumb.jpg

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You cannot assess leakage with a set stone... (and all you need is a couple of degrees off-axis with the camera even with the diamond loose and under a reflector lens, and all the results are off!)

 

What do you mean "the table is dead"? If there is no light to reflect, the diamond isn't going to produce it... and what seems a flash of light reflected back in bright light turns into a mirror surface when there is still enough light for you to see, but not enough to overwhelm your retina into seeing only the light but not the "mirror" underneath.

 

The really key question here is: do you like it?

 

Can you make a trip to a decent jeweller nearby and check what other diamonds looks like in similar light environments to what you can get at home (i.e. not directly under a spotlight!!!)


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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I think you kind of hit the nail on the head.  I don't know what i'm supposed to be seeing!

 

Do i like it? - yes, very much!  I guess that's the main thing :)

 

The only other diamonds i saw close up (when i cared to look properly) were in debeers earlier this week, but without them next to this one I haven't a clue.  I'll take your advice and visit a local jeweller.  There's a bunch of them on a road not too far from me, so I could even take the ring with me and compare.

 

Looking at it from across the room with a friend wearing it, it blings like crazy, so overall i'm satisfied with how it looks - i  guess i'm just looking for some other confirmation for the sake of my peace of mind

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If you take the ring to compare, tell the jeweller in advance (or at least before you pull it out of your pocket and start squinting at it next to one of their rings). It may result in some polite (?) requests to leave, but much better to have that than being requested NOT to leave while the police makes their way to the shop to arrest a suspected fraudster...

 

If you are in or near London (which I imagine you are, given your reference to a De Beers store), taking a look in that general area of Burlington Arcade/Old Bond Street/Piccadilly should provide you with quite a few samples of well cut diamonds. Just leave the wallet at home (don't know about you, but I can resist everything except temptation).

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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I don't think it would be any use... without having the stone and a 3D scanner, the information on the stone is what is on the report - that is, a rounded average of all 8 crown and pavilion angles, and very little info about all other facets. Yes, you can build a theoretical reflector image out of that, but it's not adding anything to your knowledge of the stone.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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I totally understand, I wanted it more to help me know (potentially) which areas I should be looking at and what for.

 

I'm now second guessing the setting too, so I may end up returning this after all. It would be a good opportunity to have a good look at this stone though before I do send it back.

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I totally understand, I wanted it more to help me know (potentially) which areas I should be looking at and what for.

But that's exactly what you wouldn't be getting with a "theoretical" ASET or other computer-simulated reflector image. A pavilion angle over 41.0-41.2° is potentially a cause of limited brightness in the centre of the stone, particularly when coupled with a relatively steep crown angle (say over 33.0°). You knew that already. Can you see that? Perhaps - but perhaps not (see your comments above about it "blinging like crazy"). Once you look at diamonds with a "brighter" make (say PA of 40.4 - 40.8°) you'll be able to decide if you prefer that look to what you have in hand.

 

There is no point (in my opinion) in getting more "analysis" based on assumptions when you actually have the real thing in your hand! What matters at the end of the day is what you (she/her friends/her mother) can see with your eyes, not what shows up on a computer screen.

 

Couple of "practical" things to check:

 

1) Are other diamonds brighter? Overall, and particularly around the centre (under the table) or the periphery (under the crown)?

 

2) What about fire? Are you trading off overall brightness against liveliness and "coloured interest"? At the end of the day, a flat mirror is very bright, but not very interesting.

 

3) Pattern symmetry and contrast - how symmetrical do the various diamonds appear? How does the pattern (if any) change as you move the stone around? Anything that appeals more than others?

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Hmm ok I see - i haven't had a chance to go to the jewelery store yet but will check those things when I do :)

 

Here's a couple of videos I made just to get some opinions on the settings if anyone has any comments.  I keep second guessing myself on the setting now...

 

Video 1 - Ring from top

http://youtu.be/6kxdhD3ZlSg

 

Video 2 - Ring from side

http://youtu.be/KbBYJjVH5zg

 

Video 3 - one i took from a preview on the site

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My likes and dislikes on the setting. Take with a bucket of salt - a lot of these things are personal taste, and I am well known for having the diplomatic skills of an enraged hippopotamus:

 

+ Seems well finished

+ Decent size melée used for the shank; it looks good in proportion to the centre

+ Sturdy shank construction - this ring is going to be worn 24/7 at least for a few months...

+ Good amount of metal on the side of the pavé - no risk of losing the diamonds

+ Robust prongs - no risk of the stone falling out.

 

- Large, almost goofy prongs result in diamond feeling "closed in" from the side despite the added pavé to lighten up the metal

- Amount of metal around the diamond may make the stone seem darker than in other settings (though it depends on how the metal has been finished too)

- The design is neither a classic (very little beats Cartier 1895 or a MWM torchére design, IMHO) nor a truly different/original design. It sits uncomfortably in the middle.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Thanks for the feedback - I like honest and straightforward!

 

I'm with you on all those points.  I really like everything about the ring from the top, my only reservation is the whole petal section.  The diamonds on it are so small that it easily looks like just an engraving if there's not a lot of motion to make the tiny diamonds sparkle.

 

I'm very torn, I LOVE It then I waiver on it.  I think that's part of the reason i keep going in every direction with the diamond (except the right one) so that having to swap it may make the decision for me on the setting too!

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It looks good on paper and a "safer bet" cut-wise than the first one; however, you are taking a couple of high value/very low probability bets:

 

1) VS2 clarity with crystals under the table. Very very occasionally they may be visible in certain situations.

 

2) Strong blue fluorescence. Again very very occasionally the diamond may look milky or oily given enough UV in the lighting.

 

If you are getting this at a significant discount compared to other 2.0x H/VS2 SB fluoro, the "very very occasionally" above should be replaced by "almost certainly".

 

On the .gem file - same as before: it adds no information unless it's generated by a 3D scan of the stone.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Hi!

 

Thanks for the response :)

 

1) Yes I'm a bit worried about that, but there's enough time for me to have it shipped, and if it's no good send it back.

 

2) I did look at one with strong fluorescence before and had them confirm it didn't have milyness.  I guess with their returns policy there's no point in them sending me something I won't be happy with.

 

These are the three i'm considering:

 

£8381,   H / IF / 1.63 ct  (HCA 1.8)

http://www.gia.edu/otmm_wcs_int/proxy-pdf/?ReportNumber=1169695447&url=https://myapps.gia.edu/RptChkClient/reportClient.do?ReportNumber=00A29668B19C10D59AC7DC510A08B75B

 

£10025,  H / VVS1 / 1.73 ct (HCA 1.4)

http://www.gia.edu/otmm_wcs_int/proxy-pdf/?ReportNumber=5146790461&url=https://myapps.gia.edu/RptChkClient/reportClient.do?ReportNumber=1404AB39E7B11309764148159ABAE441

 

£11901, H / VS2 / 2.00 ct (HCA 0.8)

http://www.gia.edu/otmm_wcs_int/proxy-pdf/?ReportNumber=2151669265&url=https://myapps.gia.edu/RptChkClient/reportClient.do?ReportNumber=83F82959BC95AF9D33471C063E5B3DDF

 

The price does roughly reflect the size and the cuts so i don't imagine there's anything drastically wrong with them.

 

What do you think?  I'm also considering changing the setting to this one, in which case a 1.63 may look too huge already!:

 

http://www.bluenile.com/uk/french-pave-diamond-engagement-ring-platinum_43585

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Oh yes and I finally got your point about the gem file - I was being a bit obtuse! So the report is just a rounded average of one facet/part of the diamond so a gem file created with that won't really show much at all, and every quadrant of the diamond will just be a mirror of the others right?

 

So only with a 3d scan would you get every facet and every individual angle 360 degrees round the crown. Makes sense.

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Oh yes and I finally got your point about the gem file - I was being a bit obtuse! So the report is just a rounded average of one facet/part of the diamond so a gem file created with that won't really show much at all, and every quadrant of the diamond will just be a mirror of the others right?

 

So only with a 3d scan would you get every facet and every individual angle 360 degrees round the crown. Makes sense.

Correct - the "Pavilion Angle" on the report is the average of the 8 pavilion angles, rounded to nearest 0.2°. Crown is rounded to 0.5°, table to 1%, star and lower girdle to 5%. If you (the vendor) can get Sarin/OGI/whatever 3D scans of all 8 angles, then it makes sense to use DiamCalc to visualise the effect.

 

Will post my further comments on the 3 new "candidates" in a couple of hours!

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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On prices: all are right at the bottom of similarly graded diamonds - most likely because of the fluorescence for #1 and #3; more difficult to figure out for #2. This is not necessarily a good sign - you may have a relative bargain, but bottom dollar prices may be a sign of something being slightly amiss with the diamond (e.g. transparency/fluorescence/clarity/optical symmetry)

 

1.60-1.65 IF: http://www.diamondreview.com/diamonds/?sortOrder=price&sortDesc=1&fShape=Rnd&fCaratLo=1.60&fCaratHi=1.65&fColorLo=H&fColorHi=H&fClarityLo=FL&fClarityHi=IF&fCutLo=&fCutHi=poor&fDepthLo=50.0&fDepthHi=80.0&fTableLo=40.0&fTableHi=80.0&fSymLo=&fSymHi=poor&fPolLo=&fPolHi=poor&fCulLo=&fCulHi=vlarge&fFlrLo=&fFlrHi=vstrong&fPriceLo=0&fPriceHi=1000000&fLabGIA=1&fLabAGS=1

 

1.70-1.75 VVS1: http://www.diamondreview.com/diamonds/?sortOrder=price&sortDesc=1&fShape=Rnd&fCaratLo=1.70&fCaratHi=1.75&fColorLo=H&fColorHi=H&fClarityLo=VVS1&fClarityHi=VVS1&fCutLo=&fCutHi=poor&fDepthLo=50.0&fDepthHi=80.0&fTableLo=40.0&fTableHi=80.0&fSymLo=&fSymHi=poor&fPolLo=&fPolHi=poor&fCulLo=&fCulHi=vlarge&fFlrLo=&fFlrHi=vstrong&fPriceLo=0&fPriceHi=1000000&fLabGIA=1&fLabAGS=1

 

2.00-2.05 VS2: http://www.diamondreview.com/diamonds/?sortOrder=price&sortDesc=0&fShape=Rnd&fCaratLo=2.00&fCaratHi=2.05&fColorLo=H&fColorHi=H&fClarityLo=VS2&fClarityHi=VS2&fCutLo=exc&fCutHi=exc&fDepthLo=50.0&fDepthHi=80.0&fTableLo=40.0&fTableHi=80.0&fSymLo=&fSymHi=poor&fPolLo=&fPolHi=poor&fCulLo=&fCulHi=vlarge&fFlrLo=&fFlrHi=vstrong&fPriceLo=0&fPriceHi=1000000&fLabGIA=1&fLabAGS=1

 

You are right that it's not in BN's interest to send you something that will be sent back, but it's also true that BN never see the diamonds... and are relying entirely on their suppliers to tell them if there is an issue (which the supplier normally does not do).

 

FWIW, of the 3, #3 is the safest bet in terms of cut.

 

On the setting, I think you could do better, at that price and style, but perhaps not from Blue Nile. (Sorry - I'm allergic to peg heads)

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Ok so i've now decided to go for the original double halo setting style setting she liked in debeers:

 

http://www.debeers.co.uk/bridal/engagement-rings/j1dd17b10p/de-beers-aura-double-halo-solitaire-ring

 

But debeers is insanely priced for what you get.  0.7ct is $18k  1ct is $26k.  Do you know of any settings similar to this from other vendors where I can pick the diamond?

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Plenty of places. Pretty much any jeweller should be able to find (or manufacture) something similar.

 

Here's one: http://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/halo/14k-white-gold-diamond-split-shank-double-halo-pave-engagement-ring-item-17845

 

Here's another one (ours!):http://www.diamondsbylauren.com/index.php/jewelry/semi-mount-hand-forged-split-shank-double-halo

SO3788-composite.jpg

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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