Got Diamond Questions?
Our community of diamond experts are here to provide answers
Sign in to follow this  
primetime

Matching Sets

Recommended Posts

Does a wedding band like this: http://http://www.kay.com/en/kaystore/engagement---wedding/diamond-anniversary-band-1-ct-tw-round-cut-14k-white-gold-530095405--1[/url]

 

Pair well with an engagement ring like this:

 

http://http://cleveland.craigslist.org/jwl/3471266449.html

 

Since they are both round diamonds, will they go together well or do I find another setting?

 

Also I wanted to get the opinion on 3 different stones:

 

http://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/784816/

 

http://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/448118/

 

http://www.uniondiamond.com/AE0480561&ptc=DR

 

What is the best buy for the money of the 3? Does one assume that the ratio of the crown angle and pavilion angle for say a 57% table are excellent based on the information provided by the GIA reports saying symetry excellent and cut grade excellent even though the angles themselves are not listed? I understand that these 2 angles relative to the table determine the quality.

 

http://www.gia.edu/diamondcut/pdf/booklet_cut_estimation_tables_lowres.pdf

Edited by primetime

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In order:

 

1. No idea if it "pairs well". There is no photo or information to suggest one way or the other. It is possible that the setting on the ring accommodates the thickness and width of the Kay band well, or it may be such that the two rings sit apart at an awkward distance/anglee. Even if it fits phisically, I'd say a channel fit band is not particularly attractive next to a solitaire setting, but this is my personal aesthetic preference; others may find it perfect.

 

We (and you) have next to no information to go on, even just about the diamonds colour. Kay specifies "minimum H-J" which is a hell of a broad range in diamond terms, and I have no reason to trust them about that BTW. The ring on Craigslist is graded F by EGL-USA, which means it will probably look white, but it could be an F or it could be an H. Do they match? Do they contrast? Who knows.

 

Final point to consider is the metal: a 14 k white gold is almost certainly rhodium plated. This will be whiter and much shinier than the platinum in the ring. It will also be harder, and in the long run you will end up with wear on the shank of the ring (if you wear two rings next to each other regularly, you will end up with wear on the shanks regardless, but two different metals will cause the wear to happen faster on the softer metal).

 

2. You can find the angles on the GIA or AGSL report. Two out of three are available online (for diamond #2 and #3).

 

If I had to pick one, I'd go with #2. #1 has the significant problem of being "final sale" (no return), isn't super cheap and there isn't even the GIA report published to give you a steer beyond "excellent cut" (which covers a lot of ground in GIA terms) and SI1 (is it eye-clean?)

 

#3 is priced very competitively, but I like the combination of a relatively shallow pavilion and steep crown (40.6°/36°) less than the combo on #2 (40.8°/34°). Would you see the difference? Maybe not. And it may be worth going for the extra security on eye-cleanness that comes with a VS2 clarity, as well as saving you $700.

 

3. The Symmetry grade has nothing to do with the angles - only with their consistency. You could get a diamond with fair symmetry but overall pleasing angles (say somewhere around 35° +/- 2° on the crown and 41° +/-0.5° on the pavilion), or a diamond with superb symmetry but crap angles (say a 39° crown and a 43° pavilion +/- 0.1°). The first may look slightly irregular; the other will look dead.

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the reply. Choosing a diamond sight unseen off the diamondreview website to match the channel band is going to prove difficult without knowing the color as you pointed out. In terms of an "ideal" round diamond, you mentioned 35° +/- 2° on the crown and 41° +/-0.5°, but If I may ask what are your range preferences on total depth %, table %, Crown%, and Pavilion % for the ideal round diamond?

 

Thoughts on this one?

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-search?track=NavDiaSea#diamonds_pid=LD02551061

Edited by primetime

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be honest, I'd work the other way around: choose your engagement diamond first, then find a band with matching stones. Kay may well be able to help, or finding a good quality channel set band at that price should not be all that difficult.

 

I think I didn't explain clearly what I meant - the angles of 35° and 41° were examples of angles that work well together and are generally close to what the industry considers "good" (I don't like the term "ideal" for a number of reasons). I wanted to place the emphasis on the fact that consistency in those angles (and a host of other things) is what the symmetry grade measures, not whether the angles by themselves are good or not. And I definitely did not mean that 41 +/- 0.5° is the range of what I would regard as "good"... though it's probably not a bad approximation, but I'd like a much tighter tolerance than +/- 0.5°on any one stone!

 

As to the combination of proportions that I prefer, I'd refer you to something that was discovered (or first explored systematically) over 100 year ago: there are a lot of combinations that work well. See for example the table on page 4 of http://www.gia.edu/research-resources/cut-microsite-pdfs/marcel-tolkowsky.pdf and note the variation of crown angles, table widths and depths. The table (in a different format) appeared in 1919, and was based on direct observation of many thousands of diamonds.

 

On the other hand, picking ranges is something that does NOT work - pace David Atlas - and personal preferences have a lot of impact once you go beyond eliminating the obvious duds. Start from GIA Excellent/Very Good cut (or AGS 0-2) and go from there - the key is seeing a lot of diamonds, or getting someone who has seen a lot of diamonds to help you select.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I recommend going withing a matching set. Meaning an engagement ring and band that was designed together to compliment each other.

enchantment_premier_28.jpg

Just as an example.


John Ramras - Graduate Gemologist and Jewelry Designer

www.diamondadvisor.net - professional diamond advice | www.brillianteers.com - Brillianteers Diamond Studio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why does the diamondfinder say $3581 for this stone, but when you click on the link the bank wire price over at union diamond, it is $3740? Will they honor the $3581? GIA report is #2145794814

 

Funny how it's also selling at b2cjewels under the same exact GIA number.for $3578 and over at enchanted diamonds for $3678. Do all these companies just try and sell the same exact diamond, lol?

 

http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-3109367-diamond.aspx?sku=3109367&utm_source=diamondreview.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=diamondreview.com

 

http://http://www.diamondreview.com/clk.cgi?http://www.uniondiamond.com/AE0460405&ptc=DR

 

Appears to be an excellent cut, VS2, with sacrificing for I color. Is it worth the price or keep looking?

 

Measurements: 6.17 - 6.21 x 3.83 mm

Carat Weight: 0.90 carat

Color Grade: I

Clarity Grade: VS2

Cut Grade: Excellent

Depth: 61.9%

Table: 56%

Crown Angle: 35.5°

Crown Height: 15.5%

Pavilion Angle: 40.8°

Pavilion Depth: 43.0%

Star Length: 50%

Lower Half: 80%

Girdle: Medium, Faceted (3.0%)

Culet: None

Polish: Excellent

Symmetry: Excellent

Fluorescence: Faint

Edited by primetime

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A significant majority of the stones in the diamond finder are owned by someone else and are on virtual consignment at the websites you're looking at. There are hundreds of suppliers that compete for these guys but the sites mostly don't own anything at all. The goods are held at the seller and whoever can make the deal then buys it and quickly ships it out to you. They're hotly competitive with one another. I suspect that the Union guys (and all of the others too) will be willing to price match to the cheapest price you find offered on a particular stone.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can take a look at Blue Nile's 10Q/10K forms: their gross margin (and particularly in the earlier years they were an almost pure diamond broker) is somewhere in the 20/30% range.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks again Neal and Davide! I'm strongly considering purchasing GIA #2145794814. (0.9 ct) For $3579. HCA is a 2.5. Is this a good price based on the GIA specs? What is the cost range for a reputable local jewler provide an ASET and Ideal-scope images so I can get a better idea of the hearts and arrows? I figure I can buy it, have it appraised and inspected, and if I don't like it, send it back to B2C.

Edited by primetime

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For pricing at your local jeweler, ask 'em. In terms of images, be aware that most local stores aren't able or at least willing to do this. It's takes some time and talent to take pictures and where the Internet guys can use the same image with a hundred potential buyers, the storefront businesses relate to customers one at a time. A few will have an ASET and/or and Idealscope around where you can look at stones 'live' but I don't know of many that are prepared to give you images you can take with you.

 

Neither one of those is a tool for evaluating hearts and arrows by the way. That's a completely different sort of reflector and, actually, these are quite a bit more common in stores than either of the above.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good to know! Which reflector is used for evaluation of the hearts and arrows? FireScope, SymmetricScope, DiamXray? None of these? I think that in my case, it's best to get the loose stone, take it to a few local dealers and have them inspect it, see if what they have in store is better than what I purchased on-line for the same or lesser price and if not, simply choose a setting from them and pay to have them mount it. Is this a good approach? I'm guessing that a $1000 setting on-line, labor included would be around $1200-$1300 locally, but I'll have the peace of mind that it's a good match to the channeled band that I got her and be able to get the ring cleaned and inspected from time to time locally.

Edited by primetime

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

None of those. It's a Hearts and Arrows scope. Here's an example of one.

http://www.jewellerysupplysource.com/product.php?productid=156703&gclid=CMuu5qD-q7QCFetDMgodckgAUQ

 

Although I agree that it's good to look at stones side by side and in the same lighting, I'm not sure I would put much stake in the opinion of a competitive dealer over which is 'better'. Some jewelers are more picky than others about setting an outside diamond but most will do it happily. By all means ask. Most will NOT set a diamond they didn't sell into a mounting they didn't sell. How much 'extra' the locals cost for mountings depends on what you're buying and the details of the store. As with the diamond, ask 'em.

 

Cleaning and inspecting are free at any sensible jewelry store whether you bought from them or not.

Edited by denverappraiser

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

b2c said that their gemologist took notes on GIA #2145794814 and that the clouds are affecting the brilliance, and that he doesn't recommend the stone. Oh well. The search continues. I just wish there was a way to gauge exactly how much the brilliance was being affected. At this point, it's probably not worth purchasing to check it out only to have the local jeweler say that other stones can be had with similar specs at the same price range with greater fire/brilliance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like you've got a decent gauge. You found a source you trust, asked them to take a look at it in person, and they gave it the thumbs down. That may not have been the answer you wanted to hear but the approach is entirely valid. Kudos to b2c for not just trying to push one through.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, still hammering away. I told B2C to check with their gemologist on these 3 and to comment on overall best: light return, fire, scintillation, and spread:

 

 

#1. http://www.b2cjewels.com/Certificate.aspx?StockNo=2622175 - for

$3,977.97

 

#2. http://www.b2cjewels.com/Certificate.aspx?StockNo=2857556 - for

$3,324.52

 

#3. http://www.b2cjewels.com/Images//Certificate//3318996.pdf - for $4353.31

 

What I'm looking for is the best diamond that I can get essentially with these GIA specs while staying in the $3000-$4500 range. I find one that I like, it didn't work out, so now I'm finding that if I jump up to VS1 keeping all else the same to decrease the chance that there may be issues, that the price obviously goes up.

 

 

0.90-0.99 ct

I or better color

Clarity - VS1 - SI1, so long as the gemologist confirms that it's good

Cut - excellent

Fluorescence - none to medium

Polish - excellent

Symmetry - excellent

Table: 56-58%

Depth: 58-62%

Crown and Pavilion angles: Need to be such that the GIA cut grade is excellent with an HCA score < 1.0. Acceptable angles are dependent upon table and depth%.

Girdle 2.5%-3.5%

Cutlet - none

Crown % 12.0 - 16.5

 

I realize that there could be cheaper diamonds out there that don't need to be rated as excellent in the cut, symmetry, and polish categories and could even be rated as an SI1/Very good in all 3 categories and still have better fire and brilliance that the 3 diamonds I've listed, but I can't realistically have each online company comment on 100's of stones so I'm just trying to work with the info that I have and pick some that based on GIA specs, will look the best in that price range. I'd tighten up the price range if I could, but that range seems to be what I need to work with.

Edited by primetime

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forget about depth, table and the HCA - unless you happen to share Garry Holloway's personal preferences. The GIA cut grade contains more information than the HCA, and while there is nothing wrong with your depth and table ranges they will not result in "better" stones, just "fewer" ones.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For B2C, I was told the following

 

2857556:

Diamond is available.

Very small widespread black inclusion in the pavilion which reflects in the crown which is not visible.

As a I VS1 stn is OK.

 

2622175:

Diamond is available.

Very small black inclusion in the table as well as in the crown which are not visible to the naked eyes.

As a I VS2 diamond is OK.

 

3318996:

Diamond is available.

Small black inclusion in the table which is not easily visible with the naked eyes.

Medium fluorescence slight affects the diamond, it appears faint blue with naked eyes.

 

Thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm waiting on the gemologist to comment on which is the best one. I also am waiting on the gemologist at James Allen to send ideal scopes and comments on these three that I have on hold:

 

http://http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1547303.asp[/url]

http://

http://1546067.asp

Edited by primetime

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HI Guys,

About how some db companies "view" stones:

In many cases they do not have the stones in hand, rather they're only asking the cutter what they think and relaying it to you.

I would always ask for photos- which at least can let you know if they actually are looking at a diamond, or relaying second hand info

 

I also advise consumers to consider both stone and ring together, as it allows a single purchase that may prove advantageous. For example, if you buy stone and ring together, and it does not come out as planned, you have only one company to hold responsible.

Edited by diamondsbylauren

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Second hand info isn't necessarily wrong. It's better than no info, which is what a lot of dealers provide, including some of the biggest players in the business. There's a definite conflict of interest present, but there's a conflict of interest when the dealer or one of their staff is doing the inspection too so I'm not sure it's all that different that the observer isn't actually working for the store. The problem here is that you have no idea who you're relying on. Presumably you have vetted the dealer, and presumably they have vetted their supplier, but there's a gigantic hole in the net here with this presumption.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Platinum- my comment was only that I agree that there's a "hole" somewhere in the net.

You're looking at reputable companies with good money back guarantees - excellent cut grade stones - so you're really going to be on pretty solid footing - you're not going to buy a bad diamond- or at least if you don't like it you can return or exchange it.

 

About the rings- there are companies that sell both together- and should be able to provide a pair of rings that fit together

 

Agreed that the right eyes looking and advising are perfectly acceptable- and can provide accurate info.

Not that a second hand assessment is not honest- but it might be more difficult to interpret as well.

But there are aspects of clarity, and cut that are a bit more difficult to get right in a game of "telephone" than in a discussion with someone who is actually holding the diamond and looking at it.Maybe that's the "hole" in the net Neil refers to.

About conflict of of interest: I agree a "gemologist opinion" could be seen to be conflict if the gemologist is working for the seller- but I think that there's a lot of cases where a dealer- or a gemologist looking at a diamond on the dealers behalf will give an honest assessment- I'd like think it's a majority.

But again, if someone is speaking to someone else actually holding the diamond and assessing it, it might be easier for a potential buyer to ask the right questions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ideal scope images along with gemologist feedback can be viewed here: http://www.pricescope.com/forum/rockytalky/need-opinion-on-these-0-9-ct-options-t183457.html

 

To me, it looks like the G SI1 is not as symmetrical as the last I VS2. Should I go for the G color and spend the extra $500 per the james allen recomendation or go with the I VS2 that is less yellower of the two VS2's and save $500? Thoughts on the ideal scope images?

 

Also if I choose a setting at James Allen, am I forfitting having a local jeweler perform future services on the ring which they would do if I purchased the setting locally and had it set locally, and if so, are those services valuable enough such that saving a couple hundred on the setting isn't worth giving up said services?

Edited by primetime

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't speak for YOUR local jeweler but around here that's not the case. Any jeweler with sense will be happy to work on things they didn't sell, it's just not 'free'. Cleanings are usually free anyway, checking is usually free, repairs done alacarte are usually not very expensive. It's hard to estimate what your ongoing maintenance is going to cost but it would be unusual to spend more than $100 every couple of year on things like tightening and rhodium. Sizing normally only happens at the front end and the selling jeweler will generally take care of it. Prepaid service contracts are sort of convenient but I wouldn't let it be a major deciding factor.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this