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happysparkles

Pricescope Biased?

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I have several of diamonds included in diamonds. Some better than others. I got one from GIA of a Pterodactyl too. I really need to decide how I want to show these online and start posting them. Maybe I'll put them up on Pinterest :)


Steve

Gear Head - Designer - Bench Jeweler - Artist - Web Developer

AnimalCharms.Net

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I wonder if they will let me come back now that I've been away for several years.

PS is under new ownership and my guess you wouldn't have a problem coming back if you wanted to. I didn't actually know you were banned. I noticed you were missing, of course, I just thought you got tired of the time and the dynamics and got on with your life.

Edited by denverappraiser

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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Banned? That's not nice. I'm curious to hear more of those stories of banning and for what reasons.

 

I haven't been banned surprisingly...yet lol, though I do not have a desire to post there anymore. I am a real life example of a consumer who joined a forum and very quickly got tired of the dynamics. As a non member of the trade or without having invested multiple years, 20k, 30k posts??!! I don't need to walk on egg shells and be forced to think like the rest of the mob -especially if they don't make sense.

Edited by happysparkles

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There is a rather large number of us that were banned from PS in the before times. A few jewelers, more than a few ladies.

 

Old news. Old drama. I may go back. It's been years since I even looked at the place. But they tend to be too much of diamond snobs for my happiness. I prefer color :)


Steve

Gear Head - Designer - Bench Jeweler - Artist - Web Developer

AnimalCharms.Net

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Lol, the banning thing got me curious. I hadn't been back to PS because of the group think, weird vibe. But how funny is this, someone else got banned responding to my thread! I totally missed it...so whether they were banned for being nasty, bashing a vendor or whatever, I have no idea. So funny. Hopefully some of my logic is slowly seeping into the lurkers, the thread has 2000 hits now, and finally a shorter term poster supported my point. I just hope some consumer somewhere, learns something. Personally for me, I do not have the energy to post there - but kudos, I can still post if I want and surprisingly someone else was banned, not me.

 

The craziest part, the old timers accused me of being some other person who was banned a few years ago.

 

1. If I was banned, how could I be back???

2. More than one person in this world can disagree with them, even though they may have 20 000 posts

3. The diatribe they piled on me was bad enough, why on earth would I make multiple aliases and take that more than once?

4. It takes enough time writing one post, especially on my touch screen phone and iPad...no keyboard slows me down.

5. Andrey and Gary can see my drivers license and passport, and see I am one person and one person only.

6. I am exceedingly honest, and find it offensive and a low reflection of values and ethics to accuse someone of that, not to mention weird. In fact it makes me suspect some of them for having multiple aliases.

7. I have a job, a husband, friends and family and holidays to enjoy. This site has been a blessing to let me vent (gratefully) but as far as Price Scope goes I certainly am not spending my life or any significant part of it, arguing with some strangers online on a diamond site as a long term hobby!!!!

Edited by happysparkles

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I wonder if they will let me come back now that I've been away for several years.

PS is under new ownership and my guess you wouldn't have a problem coming back if you wanted to. I didn't actually know you were banned. I noticed you were missing, of course, I just thought you got tired of the time and the dynamics and got on with your life.

 

We recently joined over there. I was promptly told, I can' comment on any competitors stones, or items. which means any question that someone puts a competitors link to a stone is off limits. If you are wondering why there are no comments on lots of threads where someone asks advice on a stone and puts up a link, that is why. Not allowed to post pictures of anything but my dogs, no jewelry that we make or any kind of jewelry even that we don't make. Not really allowed to say we carry anything either. It's hard to give an expert opinion on an item if you are in the trade. So you will mostly see only consumers answering expert questions.


Jan

For those that want to know the truth about diamonds, just ask.

 

dbof.com

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That was the problem I had Jan. Conflicting views were not allowed. Sponsor vendors seemed to have a different set of rules. There's a reason we used to call the place PriceFlash ;)

Edited by Feydakin

Steve

Gear Head - Designer - Bench Jeweler - Artist - Web Developer

AnimalCharms.Net

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I should create a group here on DiamondReview for all those banned PS people!

 

Any interest in that?


Hermann

Moderator

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Actually, there used to be a whole forum of people banned from various other jewelry forums. I think a lot of them were from Diamond Chit Chat, or something like that, too.

 

But yeah, we should probably move on, nothing to see here ;)


Steve

Gear Head - Designer - Bench Jeweler - Artist - Web Developer

AnimalCharms.Net

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I agree, there are rather few trade posters and the number is shrinking. I'm something of an exception for sticking around. Actually I can’t think of any of the big time advertisers who regularly post either, no doubt for similar reasons unless they’re doing damage control over some problem being discussed about them in the thread.

 

I rarely participate in the discussions of the merits or demerits of a stone found in a particular advertisement and normally I don’t even read those threads. Those seem to be mostly what Happy is unhappy about. Once upon a time there were spirited discussions over the technical details of this or that and things like what really makes a stone ‘hearts and arrows’, what's the best table size, what is brillianteering and why you should care and similar techy minutia. This has been completely halted although I think it’s more because of the experts not wishing to take the time or expend the emotional energy for what they see as no return than an effort to stay within the rules. Those discussions did tend to lead to some acrimony and there were some pretty heated debates but they also made for interesting reading and actually resulted in a pretty good education for the folks who followed them. The new management seems to like it to be a bit less volatile. The tradeoff is that the experts have mostly moved on and the advice is coming from anonymous posters (like here, trade people must identify themselves but ‘consumers’ can remain anonymous). That’s his business decision to make but it does lead to some of the things being discussed here.

 

Why do I stay? Partially out of habit, partly for entertainment, but mostly because I think it brings me business. It’s the same reason I stay here. People read things I’ve written that hopefully they think have merit and that puts me on the radar if and when they’re looking for an appraiser. I think my posts benefit the appraisal community in that, unfortunately, the business of appraisals is full of seriously unqualified and even unethical providers and posting on these places raises the expectations of consumers for what appraisal services both are and aren’t good for. I think they benefit the consuming public for the same reason and, actually, I think they even benefit the jewelers because the discussions highlight the ones with good practices and they get more business as a result. Light into dark corners is the worlds' best disinfectant.

 

I ask every single client how they found me. At least 1 or 2 a day give either PS or DI and I suspect there are more who don’t mention it or don’t remember.

Edited by denverappraiser

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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I should create a group here on DiamondReview for all those banned PS people!

 

Any interest in that?

My understanding is that the beginning of PS was as a place for a bunch of people who were banned from yet another discussion forum. I think there's a facebook group that exists largely for this purpose. I'm not elligible since I haven't been banned from ANY of them but, frankly, I wouldn't participate in that sort of thing even if I could.

Edited by denverappraiser

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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I always participated simply because I love to teach and share what I know. Like you. Any business I may have gotten was pure bonus. What I have done though is turn down a lot of work from the forums based on how I had seen people behave in other threads. I got caught that way a couple times and I would up eating a considerable amount of money rather than shred a princess in public ;)


Steve

Gear Head - Designer - Bench Jeweler - Artist - Web Developer

AnimalCharms.Net

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I agree, there are rather few trade posters and the number is shrinking. I'm something of an exception for sticking around. Actually I can’t think of any of the big time advertisers who regularly post either, no doubt for similar reasons unless they’re doing damage control over some problem being discussed about them in the thread.

 

I rarely participate in the discussions of the merits or demerits of a stone found in a particular advertisement and normally I don’t even read those threads. Those seem to be mostly what Happy is unhappy about. Once upon a time there were spirited discussions over the technical details of this or that and things like really makes a stone ‘hearts and arrows’, what's the best table size, what is brillianteering and why you should care and similar techy minutia. This has been completely halted although I think it’s more because of the experts not wishing to take the time or expend the emotional energy for what they see as no return than an effort to stay within the rules. Those discussions did tend to lead to some acrimony and there were some pretty heated debates but they also made for interesting reading and actually resulted in a pretty good education for the folks who followed them. The new management seems to like it to be a bit less volatile. The tradeoff is that the experts have mostly moved on and the advice is coming from anonymous posters (like here, trade people must identify themselves but ‘consumers’ can remain anonymous). That’s his business decision to make but it does lead to some of the things being discussed here.

 

Why do I stay? Partially out of habit, partly for entertainment, but mostly because I think it brings me business. It’s the same reason I stay here. People read things I’ve written that hopefully they think have merit and that puts me on the radar if and when they’re looking for an appraiser. I think my posts benefit the appraisal community in that, unfortunately, the business of appraisals is full of seriously unqualified and even unethical providers and posting on these places raises the expectations of consumers for what appraisal services both are and aren’t good for. I think they benefit the consuming public for the same reason and, actually, I think they even benefit the jewelers because the discussions highlight the ones with good practices and they get more business as a result. Light into dark corners is the worlds' best disinfectant.

 

I ask every single client how they found me. At least 1 or 2 a day give either PS or DI and I suspect there are more who don’t mention it or don’t remember.

 

This times a million and one!!! Hits the nail right on the head!!! So so insightful Neil! When I raise a technical question as to why a Hearts and Fire stone scores a 2.4 on the HCA or why a pav angle of 41.1 paired with a 34 crown can still be a GIAex or AGS0 candidate yet the HCA gives it a 2.5 or whatever, I want an experienced intelligent professional debating it. I do not like the dynamics of some wannabe parrot, who is spouting: HCA under 2, scintillation VG but Fire and Brill ex, buy from James Allen K SI2 (here is link conveniently for you) ideal scope etc etc.

 

Me personally I'd take a higher colour and clarity, HnA with an HCA of 2.4, or a GIA ex and AGS0 candidate at 2.5 or whatever over a K SI2 HCA 1 anyday!!!

 

Also when JA responded to my posts when I said BN was coming up 15-20% cheaper than JA, and tried to prove me otherwise that actually made me feel awkward as it was not impartial advice.

 

They should also not be letting the posts degenerate into personal and UNFOUNDED attacks on new forum posters. Its just plain awful. If I let them persuade me into buying a 'candle light' coloured I1, VG diamond that scored under two on the HCA from JA, and not question anything, I would not have been attacked...that is my guess. No offence to others, but that for me personally is not my preference for diamond.

 

PS: I have positive feelings towards BGD, WF and GOG. Never got a strange vibe from those vendors.

Edited by happysparkles

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I should create a group here on DiamondReview for all those banned PS people!

 

Any interest in that?

 

This could stir up unwanted anymosity. Its funny but it may be perceived as negative.

 

I do wish the other posters would find us here. Particularly the one they accused me of being. Also there was another one who really got freaked by deleted threads and wanted to know who owned Pricescope, they got bullied off too. They both sounded like independent thinkers.

 

They probably have children now or some new business and moved on.

 

It would be hilarious if they found the thread/s though. How funny that someone so many years ago on PS was remembered. If in five years time they accuse someone else of being my posters alias - I would feel very sad for them 1) for having not moved on 2) for not spending enough time away from the internet. lol. Maybe they need a religion to release all that OCD and dogmatic attitude .

Edited by happysparkles

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Most companies, including this one, mine, and probably your own employer, don't pubicly advertise their ownership, nor are they expected to. To the extent that Garry and any other owner chooses to participate in the forum I agree that it's appropriate that they should have some sort of statement to this effect in his signature the way Andrey and Hermann do and although I disagree with this decision I wouldn't call it scandalous that they’ve chosen not to do it. I think the reason they haven’t is that they don’t want Garry’s words to be labeled as somehow ‘official’ positions of the site. Andrey (and Hermann) are pretty careful about what they say and take a decidedly administrative role when they post. What they say *IS* an official position. Garry is much more of a participant.

 

Thanks Neil,

That pretty well sums up the position. The original founders were very careful about that, but since Andrey bought the major share from them, we have not made a secret of it. I was gifted a small share based on my contribution of HCA and tutorial work. It is not a secret.

Feydakin we have relaxed many of the rules, but we have had such a lot of spammish abuse that we apply stricter rules to vendors.

Jan, you were a little naughty in saying you 'Joined' Pricescope - given the conversation it would have been more appropriate if you had have said you 'rejoined' after you and Brad were banned some years ago. Given the relentless campaign you and Brad ran for several years, and still run as top billing in your Learning Center - http://www.dbof.com/2009/07/11/why-the-hca-doesnt-work/ - you might have added that Pricescope has a very open and democratic approach to taking critics back. However we are pleased to have you there because you have been working within the rules and offering helpful advice to consumers. We are big enough to tolerate critics.

 

Happy Sparkles, love the name, there have been many abuses of HCA, but I do not think you can get a 4.2 HCA for 41.1 / 34 unless you have a rather thick girdle which would also preclude AGS0 and GIA EX cut based on the spread deficit. Also there have been countless times that consumers have advised each other to find a store selling HoF so they can see what a really well cut diamond looks like. Would you call all HoF 'supa doopa ideal cut' ? Most cut nuts would not, but they are way better than most of what consumers in Malls get mauled by.

 

Herman, I will not be posting again or responding to any replies. Up to you if you leave this or pull it down.

 

Kind regards

Garry Holloway

Retail jeweller, designer, Ideal-scope and HCA inventor / developer, and tiny part owner of PS,

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In response to the example I gave, I said it would return a score if 2.4 or "whatever"...which is does. I never said 4.2.

A depth if 61.7, table 57, crown 34 and pav 41.1 = HCA 2.3 which could be a GIA ex and AGS0 candidate.

 

My wary as a potential consumer/new forum poster etc was the posts of regular posters and learner posters being so didactic.

 

A few of the 'wannabe pricescopers' instilling fear in consumers off potential purchases (talk of leakage etc) and swaying people to JA stones made me uncomfortable. I could easily list the usernames I saw do this. Also the ganging up on me made it ultra unpleasant.

 

I'm new to the internet world PS was the first forum I joined and that was what I experienced, what I expresed here.

 

I believe GH is an extraordinarily accomplished person in his industry (from what I have read), and I never meant any disrespect. Though I felt I had to post my discomfort of the personal experience I had on Price Scope and my discomfort at the authoritarian approach posters had to their thinking.

 

As for HoF, well many of the PS vendors sell Hearts and Arrows cuts at a premium, GoG, BGD, JA, to name some, so they must see an inherent value in diamonds cut like this, or, are they just leveraging off what HoF have marketed successfully...or is it again, possibly subjective.

Edited by happysparkles

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I agree, there are rather few trade posters and the number is shrinking. I'm something of an exception for sticking around. Actually I can’t think of any of the big time advertisers who regularly post either, no doubt for similar reasons unless they’re doing damage control over some problem being discussed about them in the thread.

 

I rarely participate in the discussions of the merits or demerits of a stone found in a particular advertisement and normally I don’t even read those threads. Those seem to be mostly what Happy is unhappy about. Once upon a time there were spirited discussions over the technical details of this or that and things like what really makes a stone ‘hearts and arrows’, what's the best table size, what is brillianteering and why you should care and similar techy minutia. This has been completely halted although I think it’s more because of the experts not wishing to take the time or expend the emotional energy for what they see as no return than an effort to stay within the rules. Those discussions did tend to lead to some acrimony and there were some pretty heated debates but they also made for interesting reading and actually resulted in a pretty good education for the folks who followed them. The new management seems to like it to be a bit less volatile. The tradeoff is that the experts have mostly moved on and the advice is coming from anonymous posters (like here, trade people must identify themselves but ‘consumers’ can remain anonymous). That’s his business decision to make but it does lead to some of the things being discussed here.

 

Why do I stay? Partially out of habit, partly for entertainment, but mostly because I think it brings me business. It’s the same reason I stay here. People read things I’ve written that hopefully they think have merit and that puts me on the radar if and when they’re looking for an appraiser. I think my posts benefit the appraisal community in that, unfortunately, the business of appraisals is full of seriously unqualified and even unethical providers and posting on these places raises the expectations of consumers for what appraisal services both are and aren’t good for. I think they benefit the consuming public for the same reason and, actually, I think they even benefit the jewelers because the discussions highlight the ones with good practices and they get more business as a result. Light into dark corners is the worlds' best disinfectant.

 

I ask every single client how they found me. At least 1 or 2 a day give either PS or DI and I suspect there are more who don’t mention it or don’t remember.

 

Hi Neil,

From my perspective, I consider us a "big" advertiser on PS. I don;t know what others spend, but we do sponsor the forum in a robust manner with our banner ads.

 

I find that the ownership of PS is extremely tolerant of different opinions. Members? Not nearly as much..

If a consumer wants to "promote" a company, they can do it very effectively.

Tradespeople's motivations are clear, Some of these consumers seem driven by hidden motivations.

One guy really dislikes me ( for reasons that are unclear to me to this day) so he constantly plugs the competition.

 

With regards to HCA- I've been one of the most vocal critics. In defense of Garry- although he has debated the issue, I was never told to stop pursuing it.

Speaking objectively, I don;t prefer t use it, but there is some consistency in results.

We carry Crafted by Infinity diamonds- which will all score wonderfully on the HCA- and there's something to be said for that.

BUT- a GIA EX cut grade stone which is not cut technically as well as a stone scoring under 2 on HCA may be more attractive to some observers.

Given that the "super ideal" cuts cost more, it's not a zero sum game.

By having a numeric grade, it makes it seem like a stone scoring 5 is "worse" than a stone scoring 1. But it's not the case for all buyers or lovers of diamonds. the different type of brilliance of certain types of stones scoring lower on HCA has less contrast and patterning, and looks better to some observers..

A stone like this triple EX which scores close to 5 on HCA- so if someone likes this look better it seems somehow "wrong" to tell them they love a defective stone based on HCA

r3500a.jpg

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David,

 

I didn't mean to sound like I was picking on your advertising and I agree, you are a regular and valuable contributor there as is your coworker Davide here. I was thinking of dealers who list thousands or tens of thousands of stones in the database like Blue Nile, Abazias, Solomon Brothers, and James Allen. This is what I meant by 'big' advertiser.

 

Neil


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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I agree that the advertising budget of some of those companies is larger than ours, in some cases exponentially larger.

But if you add up the actual photographed inventory listed on a website - inventory that is owned by the company that runs the site- we may be larger than any of those....... :P

 

And no offense taken old friend!!

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I know this post is old, however I am a recent banned from Pricescope but I don't feel the need to say anything nasty about the board as I said what I felt whilst online.  I felt sorry for a poster who spends all their time online and I felt was promoting diamonds for vendors.  I now realise and did before I was banned but never wrote back to say so, my own fault, that cusstomers promoting businesses and giving them money, which in my mind was thousands as diamonds are not cheap, is okay. 

I just find it weird how in my country people buy a carrier bag for 5p because they need it and turn it inside out as they are not going to freely advertise the company when they had to pay for the bag.  I find that such a minor thing to somone sitting online everyday and promoting a company which may be make 20 x $9000 sales from her, per day/night, and such a contrast, not to mention this person has spent years of her own life doing so for nothing but satisfaction or hobby. 

I noticed many of the posters agreed that this was what consumer forums were for, including a long term, very educated from her posts Aljdewey whose opinion I have very much respected in the past as she seems to be able to weigh up things and give all inclusive excellent answers.  I had therefore sort of in my head corrected my misgiving in that I still believe it to be wrong from a personal point of someone spending so much time but that it is something people do and as long as they know they are doing it and not being cohearsed into it, then it is okay.  However I was banned when I went back to the forum a couple of days later, so, so be it.  I will not say anything more on Pricescope whilst I am here.  I don't see the point I do not think they are biased I just think the public need to educate themselves and if they realise money is being made but they believe helping other public comes before that then that is good.  

As far as the piling on effect on boards, this happens in real life anyway in a room of friends or even just two friends they will support the main view of friends present.  No need worry we all have a choice and there are other consumer forums on the internet too if you do get banned.

So I hope to spend some time on this board and gain more education which I have already done as I notice posts here about I1 diamonds not being so bad depending that they are really I1 from a reputable seller or reputable lab.

Edited by Pyramid

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Hi Pyramid, welcome to DiamondReview!

Just one comment around I1: it's not so much the reputable vendor or the reputable lab that makes them "not so bad" (or even very good). What the reputable vendor/lab can do is ensure that the diamond is as far as possible fairly described; what the diamond is does not depend on the lab or the vendor; a good lab and vendor just cut down on your work as a consumer to vet and verify, but not all "good I1" are retailed by good vendors or with GIA reports... it just takes a lot more work to assess them and to understand if they are fairly priced. :)

  • Like 2

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Welcome Pyramid.  It's been years since I was banned at PS, and years since I've been welcomed back, but you're not alone in finding yourself outside the fold.  There are rules here too but they're hard to run against if you even remotely mind your manners. I think you'll have no troubles.  


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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