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mani1892

Kissing Diamonds (Tm)

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Hey, I'm new here and also new to buying diamond rings so would appreciate any answers you care to offer to my question below!

 

Q. Has anyone heard of the Kissing Diamonds brand? If so are they reputable? (I note that their diamonds are not independently certified by any lab which concerns me).

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I have never head of them (which means next to nothing), but they seem to be a jewellery manufacturer rather than a retailer or diamond dealer. The site I found does not list any specific items for sale or even general characteristics of their inventory, and only has a dozen designs all based around the idea of the culet-to-culet setting - which although is a neat idea, would worry me no end in an engagement ring to be worn every day.

 

It is not clear whether any diamonds would be lab-graded - if you are keen on the design, contact your nearest dealer and ask them for more information.

 

BTW - why are you posting this in the "community" forum? This is a topic for "The Rock" forum...


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Moved to The Rock and deleted duplicate posting


Hermann

Moderator

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Kissing Diamonds is a brand originated in New York 2004. Culet-to-culet is the iconic concept. Have you checked the facebook yet? It has more information and you may ask the administrators for more details. I think it has pretty good designs in bridal. :)

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Hi Denver, yes I am. Actually, I was doing some researches this afternoon and found Mani's question so I registered and tried providing some information here. :)

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Welcome to the forum Amy.

 

As Davide mentioned, it's not obvious from your site how to buy one if someone is interested. Don't know where Mani is but I don't see any US dealers on your list (the one that's listed isn't a valid website). Do you sell directly and/or are there other dealers that aren't listed?

 

Mani's original question remains unanswered. Who graded the stones? As a related topic, can a customer bring in their own stone and have a ring made?

Edited by denverappraiser

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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Hi Denver,

My company is the distributor for Kissing Diamonds. We do have retailers in USA. Since it may related to some sensitive issues, I think the best way is Mani sends a email or leaves a MSG to us on Facebook so we can recommend the nearest retailer to her or even ask our coworkers in USA to give her the information. ( my current location is in HK)

 

And if I remember correctly, the Kissing Diamonds products all come with a certificate indicating the colour and the grades. I will check when i back to office tmr.

 

For the customers brining in diamonds for setting, I don't think we have this service at the moment as the diamonds applied in Kissing Diamonds were strictly selected for best matching in proportion.

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Thanks to everybody for their observations. Amy, I would be particularly interested in obtaining some further information in relation to the stones from you (although as a distributor of the KD brand I understand that any info you may provide may not be entirely independent!). My main concern, and referring back to my original question, is are the stones certified and of so by whom? Alternatively, if not certified, why not?

 

By way of background, I am strongly considering purchasing one of the engagement rings in the KD range (the 3-stone ring; model no. 52.0069 as shown in following link: www.kissingdiamonds.com/collection.html). I am living in Ireland and the ring is sold in 2 of the top-end diamond retailers). I have asked the retailer, whose understanding it is that the diamond is uncertified but will of course provide a valuation (again, not independent).

I am happy to contact you offline if more appropriate.

Any other opinions anyone else wishes to share in relation to the ring design/setting/etc would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for your time.

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Hi Mani,

I have asked my supervisor to give me more details to help you. Do you mind sending us enquiry through the e-mail provided on website or on our facebook? :)

By the way, good choice,one of our facebook fans received a 3-stone kissing diamonds ring from her boyfriend, it is truly stunning!

Thanks for your question here.

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Amy - I have to say that I don't understand why you as a representative of Kissing Diamonds aren't answering the very simple question "Are the stones employed in Kissing Diamonds's designs graded by an independent lab? If so which one(s)? If not, why not?"

 

There is nothing proprietorial or confidential in this information, and the fact that you are not willing to provide it makes me think that the information if published would not be in your favour.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Amy,

 

You've been asked no less than 4 times over the span of several days during which you've posted no less than 4 times and sure eem to be avoiding the question. Why? Surely you agree that it's important. Don't you?


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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Hi Davide and Denver,

First,I have no intention to hide any information for Kissing Diamonds. And I got Mani's reply yesterday and sent the enquiry to my co-workers immediately for the reason that I am a new staff in this company and I just want to provide the most precise information to you.

 

Second from the information i have in hand, certificate is available upon request at retailers. In general, the certificates for diamonds used in Kissing Diamonds design are issued by GIA or IGI.

 

Thanks for your questions and I will return to this post once I have more information in hand.

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Thank you. I apologize for coming across hostilly. We've run into this issue before and it's a sensitive topic. I understand that you are not a senior management at the company and that what you say in a public forum on behalf of the company requires care. Thank you for your answers and your participation.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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Hi all,

I have got the information from my co-worker. All customers can require the diamond certificate of Kissing diamonds at the retailers. Diamonds, esp the main stone which is over 0.5 carat, applied are graded by GIA or IGI.

 

I hope this information could ease your worries and enjoy the ring-shopping. :)

 

Best regards,

Amy

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Thanks ever so much for your enquiries & response Amy, much appreciated. Also to everyone else for their interest in this topic.

 

I am aware of who GIA are but not so sure who IGI are. I am unsure from Amy's response whether all diamonds (of a certain size e.g >0.5c) are graded by KD themselves and that the retailer is merely required to request the cert or, alternatively, it is a matter for the retailer as to whether they decide to have it graded? I have been told by my retailer here in Dublin that the stone is uncertified - should I insist that it be certified as this has not been offered to me by the retailer? Or should I take comfort from the fact that most KD stones are graded and therefore in all likelihood my ring should be of a similar quality? Also is it the norm for only stones over a certain size to be graded - I'd imagine so?

 

Apologies for all the questions, the reason for which is that my fiancée to be really loves this ring and I just want to have all my homework done before committing to buying it.

 

Thanks again everyone.

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IGI is a large gemmology lab - significantly larger than GIA in terms of the volume of stones that are submitted for grading. I would not put them on a par with GIA in terms of reliability and consistency of grading, unfortunately. Caveat emptor.

 

I have no idea what the KD policy with regards to lab grading is, but it would surprise me if it were down to the retailer: to be properly measured and graded, the diamond has to be loose. Considering the precision required in the setting to have a culet-to-culet contact without smashing either stone, I would not expect the retailer to have the skills or equipment to unset and reset the stones correctly and have them graded on customers request.

 

It is common practice to have significant stones in a piece (say retail value over $4-5000 / size over 0.70 ct) graded by an independent lab. Smaller stones sold loose are also often lab graded, particularly those offered by online retailers. However, if you look at the overall volume of diamonds sold, the vast majority still aren't lab graded for various reasons.

 

The problem is that relying on the seller's word (and in my view without a GIA or AGS report you are relying on the seller's word) can be quite expensive. A well cut 1.00 carat D/FL will retail between $25 and 30,000. A well cut 1.00 F/VS1 will be $12-14,000. Once set, no-one in the world will see the difference without a microscope (and even with a microscope, it may be impossible). If I were buying at D/FL prices, I would want some guarantee beyond the seller's word that it is indeed a D/FL. Similar relative price differentials exist between a G/VVS1 and an I/VS2, or an H/VS1 and a J/SI1, and even the call between VS and SI (or H and I) can be 25-30% on price.

 

Speaking as a consumer (or perhaps more precisely a collector), I have trusted people on calls of this size, but only after getting good, trustable references on the dealer and very rarely on my first purchase from a dealer. In general, it worked; in a few cases, I got stung. In about 50% of the "stings", I am totally sure there was no bad faith from the seller; they simply made the wrong call themselves.

 

I chalked it up to experience, as any collector does, and carry on buying 5-10 pieces a year for my collection. I also see hundreds of diamonds a year as they get evaluated (and often bought) by the business I represent here. Most people buying jewellery don't get anywhere near this volume, and have correspondingly less trust in the trade - and less experience in sorting good from bad. YMMV.

 

ETA: don't worry about asking too many questions. It's what the forum is for, after all!

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Hi Mani,

You are welcome! I am very happy to help. I am not sure why your retailer said Kissing Diamonds were uncertified but I guess that salesperson might have some misunderstandings.

 

As a consumer, I would ask for certificates. However, some retailers told us that some customers did not care about the cert so our diamond certificates are provided upon request. The purchase procrocess is you pick the style and carat of diamond ( and request for cert for sure), retailer will send the order form to us listing the style and your request. After this, we send the ring and cert to retailer so you could get your diamond ring with cert.

 

For the stones applied in Kissing Diamonds designs, they are certified by GIA or IGI. It is because my company purchase stones from legitimate vendors and we have to make sure the diamond source is reliable.

 

So I suggest you to talk to the sales representative of your retailer and ask for the diamond cert.

 

And Divide, thanks for the information! They are very helpful for me as well!

 

Best regards,

Amy

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Amy, I have just sent an e-mail to the inquiries e-mail address on the KD website seeking confirmation in relation to the queries I have raised in this thread, although I suspect you have answered most of them for me by this stage! Upon receipt of a reply, I will print it off and show it to my retailer here in Dublin who presumably, at that stage, will be happy to request the grading certificate for me should I decide to place an order. To be honest once the cert is forthcoming I am 99% sure I will be placing an oder as my girlfriend (yes, I have yet to pop the question!) is mad about this particular ring!

 

For information purposes, is it possible to order directly from KD? To be honest I would be happier to buy through my local retailer who will be on hand to provide any after-sales care/maintenance where necessary. I'd image, like all rings but particularly because of the culet-to-culet design of this ring, that it would be prudent to have the settling checked annually?

 

Also, can anyone advise whether it is also prudent to have the ring valued by an independent 3rd party following purchase? I'd imagine this to be necessary.

 

Again thanks Amy, Davide & Neil for sharing your vast & impressive knowledge on the subject!

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Valuation/appraisal: it depends on what you want it for. Insurance companies in the UK (and I assume in Ireland) are normally happy with a detailed invoice/valuation from the seller - of course this does nothing to reassure you that what you have is as described and worth what you paid.

 

Best of luck with the purchase - and most importantly with the proposal! If you can come back to post a photo (or many) of the ring, we would all love to see it.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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The reasons people want to get an appraisal on a new purchase usually fall into few basic categories.

 

1) The dealer didn’t supply appropriate documentation to meet your insurance carrier’s requirements.

 

2) The documentation they supplied meets the minimum insurance company standards but it doesn’t meet YOUR standards. In most cases, the insurance contract is agreeing to replace a lost item with another of like kind and quality. The description in the appraisal you submit is the definition of ‘like kind and quality’ that will be used and it should include at least the grading on the stones, identification of the manufacturer if known, all relevant weights, dimensions, counts, karatages, etc., photographs and photomicrographs as needed, and a value conclusion that is appropriate to exact replacement. Too little and you’ll be underinsured and too high and you’ll be paying too much for your coverage (this is a common problem by the way)

 

3) You want a second opinion about something the dealer said or didn’t say in the sales presentation.

 

4) You are using it as part of the shopping process and you want tests and expert evaluations done that are beyond the scope of what the seller is able or willing to do.

 

5) The documentation they provided incluldes information that you know or suspect to be false and you're looking for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth before you proceed with a decision to keep or return the piece.

 

What and how much you need will depend on where you lie on the above issues as well as what your jeweler provides you, what your insurer requires and your own comfort level in relying 100% on the seller for information.

Edited by denverappraiser

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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Well... let's put it this way:

 

1. There is a very significant difference between GIA and IGI grading.

2. There is a significant price difference between F vs G, and VS1 vs VS2.

 

I am puzzled how they can be so specific as to say that the main diamond is "1.03 carats", yet not know whether it comes with an IGI or GIA report, VS1 or VS2, F or G.

 

You have no information on cut, other than the assurance of KD that the stones's proportion are optimal to get whatever effect they want.

 

Whatever the centre stone is, I think the price they quoted is for the ring only. Middle-range EGL/IGI G/VS2 stones trade online for about $4500-5500, so this would be suspiciously cheap even for the main stone. If that is indeed their quote for the centre stone, be assured that you would be getting something that no-one in the trade would honestly call G/VS2, and/or something that is cut appallingly. A "decent" GIA-graded G/VS2 1.00 carat goes for $8000-9500, and an F/VS1 for $10000-13000.

 

"Getting a ring with a design" does not prevent you from sourcing the stone from a competitive supplier. We - a small company - have about 40 "stock" designs that are not plain solitaires, and we can custom make pretty much anything you can think of or come up with a one-off design given a centre stone. Having said this, getting the culet-to-culet setting right is not going to be easy, and if you (or your girlfriend) are keen on that, the KD price is probably as good as you are going to get: there are definitely economies of scale in doing one difficult thing well.

 

ETA: don't assume that prices in Antwerp are particularly good (or indeed that you would have a better choice than by sitting in your room). Diamonds travel pretty well, and you can find suppliers prepared to ship to Dublin for very competitive prices. What you (or anyone else) cannot "do" is to compare full-service retail prices from a high street jeweller in Dublin with online prices...

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Personally I would find the approximately VS-something, F-Gish, GIA/IGI thing to be disconcerting but I guess that’s your call. Assume the worst unless they’re prepared to defend a claim that it’s better than that. This is part of what your dealer is for by the way. They're supposed to be helping choose the right thing here, not just moving a package from the inbox to the outbox.

 

The assumption of cheaper prices in Antwerp, New York, Israel, India, downtown Dublin, or wherever is common but flat out false. FedEx offers a pretty good service and EVERYONE in the trade knows it. The difference between holding inventory in the Ginza in Japan and a back alley in Antwerp is $35 and 3 days wait. The rest of the difference has to do with the dealer(s) and local taxes. There are fine places to shop in all of these locations but it’s not their address that made them such. It’s the character of the people behind the counter/keyboard.

Edited by denverappraiser

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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Just to clarify, from the info I have 1.03 is the entire diamond weight of the ring - 3 centre stones 0.9 (middle 0.5; outside 0.2 each); clusters make up remainder. I am in the process of following up with the retailer as to the exact colour & clarity spec. As i have been informed that KD use both GIA and IGI grading labs exclusively, should I decide to purchase I will request that the stones used in my ring come with the GIA grading cert if possible. Can you advise how IGI labs rank against other labs in terms of reliability/accuracy of grading.

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