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In The Market For An Engnmt Ring


Mat
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Hello,

 

Well the time is nearing up and I been looking for a ring for my gf. I saw few online and need some advice as to price etc. My budget is at around 15K to 17K and hopeing to find a 2ctw ring that can look brilliant and shining (bling :().

 

I saw few ones online and need some input to see if these are good price or not. Any help, advice is greatly appreciated.

 

Number 1.

 

 

 

Stock Number: 34860130

 

Shape: Round

 

Carat: 2.1

 

Color: H

 

Clarity: VS2

 

Price: 16,107.00

 

Table: 57

 

Depth: 60.9

 

Polish: EX

 

Symmetry: EX

 

Crown: None

 

Measurements: 8.32x8.29x5.06

 

 

Number 2:

 

 

Stock Number: 34022337

 

Shape: Round

 

Carat: 2.05

 

Color G

 

Clarity: VS2

 

Price: 16028.00

 

Depth 62.4

 

Table: 55

 

Polish: EX

 

Symmetry: EX

 

Flouresence: None

 

Measurements: 8.07x8.13x5.06

 

 

 

Thanks

Mat.

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Hi Matt,

Congratulations on buying a diamond!

The first question is if the diamonds have GIA reports.

Based on your post, I'll be they do not.

That right there is a deal breaker.

 

If you're buying a two carat diamond for $9k, and you trust the dealer, lack of a GIA report means less.

But when one is spending 16k on a two carat, they need a GIA or AGSL report- even if you're buying from your brother ( or in my case especially...heheh).

 

Seriously- it's crucial to have the GIA report.

 

Next, I'd strongly advise getting photos. This will at least allow you to have a rough idea what the stone looks like.

205hsi1.jpg

The stone above is a 2.05 H/SI1. I would not be recommending this particular diamond- even though it was graded "Excellent" in cut, by GIA.The cut is nice, but not my personal favorite.

 

The SI1 imperfection is visible at the edge of the diamond, at 1:00.

 

Also, I'd strongly advise buying a stone from someone that has the diamond in hand- allowing them to make personal observations.

This points to your main task, in my opinion- and that is choosing a dealer you feel comfortable with.

 

 

There are a number of participating vendors here who would be happy to show you stones- myself included.

Barry from Excell diamonds also posts here and has a great reputation.

Edited by diamondsbylauren
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Thank you Lauren for you input and advice.

 

I live in Chicago, do you recommend anyone here that you know off? The list I provided is from a Jewlery that is located on Wabash street Downtown chicago. Of the two lists, one of them has an EGL Certification. I have uploaded the CERT that is for Number 2 on my list. So you think this is a bad buy? I only saw this online but have not gone to the store to see it yet. I wanted to get my "A " game before I go and start talking the price.

post-117582-1238106978_thumb.jpg

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Hi Mat,I'm David.

Here's the scoop- when one dealer is selling to another, they understand that the only labs taken seriously are GIA and AGSL.

So, if a stone is presented with an EGL report, it's either disregarded- or discounted way off the price of a stone with the same grade from GIA.

If the seller is not telling you this, that indicates a lack of transparency in representation that is alarming, to me.

It's your money- but you're far better off buying a stone with a legitimate grade from GIA - even if it's an I/SI1 at the prices you were quoted.

As I mentioned- it's not that a diamond with an EGL report is "bad"- but it wold be like a guy selling a used car, and calling it a new car. Then getting some company to "certify it" as new.

Even if the price was fair for a used car, the representation is not honest. That's a problem IMO.

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ahhhhhhhh...I get it .....so in an essence the list I have the price could be 8K...but these dealers are selling it for 16K by getting a third part EGL cert...thats good info...thanks.

 

Do you have any recommendation for online shopping...?

 

Mat

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Actually Mat, what I see is a guy offering a diamond worth roughly what he's offering it for, but calling it something that would make it seem as though he's really giving it away.

If you do a search on this site,, you'll find prices from around $11k to 28k for 2+ct H/VS2

 

Your question about online shopping is a good one.

Many of the sellers lack some very basic elements IMO.

For one thing they don;t actually have the diamond in front of them- they never actually see the diamonds they sell.

So they can't provide photos.

 

I'd say, look around.

Find a site, or seller you feel good about, and give them a call.

See if you're speaking the same language.

 

 

$16k is a very nice budget for a 2 carat diamond- but don;t expect H/VS2, if we're talking about really well cut diamonds, with GIA or AGSL reports.

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Hi there-

Just thought I'd throw in my $0.02 since I just bought a 2 carat round.

I would go with GIA or AGS graded stones- EGL looks great for the $$$ but they are soft in grading on color, by as much as two grades I've heard/ read, and can be a bit soft on clarity? EGL USA is a bit more inline wth GIA/ AGS, but to me too risky especially at the budget you're at.

In house jewler graded stones are unreliable, and I ran into some doozies for high $.

I READ a ton on the tutorials, and the advanced cut tutorials are great.

Cut to me was the most important factor, then clarity and color ("I" was my floor on color).

I ended up with an AGS 2.058 ideal cut/ symmetry/ polish (triple ideal), SI-2 eye clean, no culet, no fuorescence, and I color- looks icy white and has killer fire and sparkle, even in low light. $13K for the stone which I thought was very reasonable after seeing how quickly a 2 carat can jump in value with one clarity grade or color grade improvement, add two upgrades combined with EX or Ideal cut and you get past $20K in a hurry.

If you want to read my very steep learning curve in action feel free, I included some websites to learn about cut quality, although the folks here are right that you (or your chosen rep) have to see stones in person to make a judgement:

http://www.diamond.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=4751

Cathy also just bought a 2.2 or so round, and has a great thread going with several educational debates included:

http://www.diamond.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=4753

I also bought a GIA ex/vg/ex, I, SI2, 2.27 carat for $10,600 to compare to the AGS that was strong blue fluorescent- and it was a KILLER stone, a feather just under the table visible in certain lights (direct sunlight especially) killed the deal, and the AGS beat it in several other areas (except $ and size) so I went with the AGS. Returned the GIA. Took them both to an appraiser for evaluation. Point is don't be afraid of fluorescence unless the ring will be in an environment with blacklights more than a few days a year, unlikely unless you own nightclubs, and even then a glowing diamond might be cool. I'd avoid VERY strong FL personally. Cathy ended up with a medium blue FL. Great way to get a discount on a large excellent or ideal cut diamond and it can help the diamond face up a color grade or so 'whiter' than stated on the grading report, I believe it but that's debated by some.

I may be addicted to diamonds now... they're like crack! HA!

GOOD LUCK and congrats!

John

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The problem with EGL and house graded stones is that you just don't know very much. I've seen EGL grading that's spot on, but I've also seen EGL reports where I disagree by 4 grades. It might be a G, or it might be an H (or I or even K). It might be VS2, but then it might be SI2. 'Excellent Ideal cut' means nothing at all because there's no scale available to apply it to. Since you can't see the stone and even the seller can't see the stone, what have you learned by reading this report? It's like building a house and measuring with a rubber yardstick. Stick with GIA and AGSL grading and move on from there. Stick with a dealer who actually has stones and who you've already checked out in advance and decided deserves your business.

 

Neil

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WOW...this is harder than I thought...harder than buying a house or a car...lol..

 

Okay now I know to stay away from the EGL. Next step. I know that I want to have a stone with an Ideal to Excellent cut. That is #1 on the list. Then comes the clarity/color. I dont know why but my gf is sooo stuck with color. She is so focused that she wants to have it in a ring from D to G, I want to extend it to al least I and clarity to VS2.

 

With respect to Cut, what is the good rang that I need to be when it comes to Depth, Table, gribble, culet etc. I been seeing few stones (just the info) online and they all fall within the range they ought to be. However the price tag varies even though they have the same color/clarity.

 

Next if I go to a dealer (store) and see a stone, obviously they jaze it up with loads of lightings where a stone might look bright, briliant fireing etc...would it make a difference if I take that same stone and put it under reqular lighting (sunlight). Can I tell the difference how the stone shines etc...? What should I look for ? etc...?

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You need to read some of the tutorials, especially with regard to cutting. The one here isn't the best (sorry Hermann) and it's a violation of the rules for me to point you somewhere but you can Google around and find things. Watch out for charts with depth/table type ratios that then declare a particular stone as 'ideal' or whatever. The serious labs abandoned this approach for good reason. Better is the ones that use crown and pavilion angles but even this strategy suffers and neither AGSL or GIA do it that way. My suggestion is to use the lab for the first tier of grading, that is to say, buy ONLY GIA-xxx or whatever and then use your dealer, your eyes and/or your appraiser for the second tier when you decide if this is the right one for you.

 

It's not so hard, it's just not what you expected going in. You can't shop for diamonds the same way you shop for books or computer parts because each is unique. That's a feature, not a problem. You're searching the world for the best possible diamond for here and that will uniquely symbolize your feelings for her. It would lose some of the magic if it were just some part that you could buy over a coffee break.

 

Yes, stores do their best to make their products look as good as possible. Of course. What else would you have them do? Direct sunlight is actually a spectacularly bad choice of lighting for comparing diamonds. What you want is to look at stones in a variety of conditions including overhead spots (what most stores have) and diffused lighting. In most stores, the lighting is concentrated over the cases and it's more diffused out in the middle of the room or the lobby. Do make sure the sales people know your plan before you take one of their diamonds and head for the parking lot for some different light. :(

 

Neil

Edited by denverappraiser
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WOW...this is harder than I thought...harder than buying a house or a car...lol..

 

Okay now I know to stay away from the EGL. Next step. I know that I want to have a stone with an Ideal to Excellent cut. That is #1 on the list. Then comes the clarity/color. I dont know why but my gf is sooo stuck with color. She is so focused that she wants to have it in a ring from D to G, I want to extend it to al least I and clarity to VS2.

 

With respect to Cut, what is the good rang that I need to be when it comes to Depth, Table, gribble, culet etc. I been seeing few stones (just the info) online and they all fall within the range they ought to be. However the price tag varies even though they have the same color/clarity.

 

Next if I go to a dealer (store) and see a stone, obviously they jaze it up with loads of lightings where a stone might look bright, briliant fireing etc...would it make a difference if I take that same stone and put it under reqular lighting (sunlight). Can I tell the difference how the stone shines etc...? What should I look for ? etc...?

 

John here-

GIA top cut is Excellent then VG 2nd, and then you have polish and symmetry- personally I considered VG to Ex on both symmetry and polish to be a requirement

AGSL top cut is Ideal, then Ex. 2nd, then vg. -same for polish and symmetry. GIA Ex. = AGS Ideal.

 

There is a whirlwind of thoughts and graphics on my thread if you want to see how I suffered through trying to figure out the perfect numbers to shoot for- truth is there are a variety of combos that can be awesome, but I chose to stick with numbers within GIA's EX cut tolerances, which I believe are 58.6-63% depth and 52.4-59% table (from my handwritten notes, could be off a hair). Some people think a 63% depth is too deep and 52% crown too narrow, so I went with 58-62% depth and 53-59% depth, and would occasionally search the 60% crown diamonds...

As a caveat I got paralyzed trying to analyze the numbers (not normal for me) and the pros tried to set me straight about 10 times, so try not to let that happen to you.

The diamond I ended up going with had a crown % of 56.1, depth % of 61.5, crown angle of 33.9 and pavillion angle of 41. Then you get into a few other numbers on the grading report, but those are the basics.

Girdle I was told and read to stay away from very thin or very thick. Medium is best, thick to very thick just hides carat weight in the middle so you pay for a deep girdle instead of properly utilized carat weight, and thin to very thin can chip. I think the extremes can also undermine the way the angles work together?

"I" color worked for me, no trace of yellow... "G or H" will cost you a premium over "I or J", but may be worth it considering your budget. D,E,F gets a little crazy on the wallet.

SI-2 also worked out for me, but VS-2 might be "mind clean"- the reason I say that is I think to myself, "Did I cheap out with an eye clean SI-2?"-and I'll stare and stare at it and every now and again I think I see a small inclusion, then I lose it and can't find it- I guess that's OK, but it's not 100% mind clean that's for sure. SI-1 might be safer but I've heard of SI-1 diamonds that aren't eye clean. VS-2 from what I've learned should be totally eye clean, but you pay a nice premium over SI-1... which costs you over SI-2 (obviously).

 

For culet you want none or very small... none is preferred (perfect pointed base).

 

I like looking at the stone under FL lights- regular old office lights, produces a neat light show.

 

I'm a beginner so the pros might give a counterpoint, I'd take their opinion over mine 100%.

 

I personally wouldn't buy from a local brick and mortar retail jeweler seeing the prices the stores offer on IGI, AGA diamonds (less reputable or well known grading labs). I've seen several diamonds like mine in the store for over $20K... and if they offer a GIA/ AGS... the price tag grows.

 

Go to the tutorial on this site (diamond.info) and read the advanced cut guide. And check this out:

http://www.gia.edu/diamondcut/05_diamond_anatomy.html

http://agslab.com/diamond_buying101_consumer_brochure.php

http://agslab.com/diamond_buying101_4cs_of...grading_cut.php

 

There are more GIA graded stones than AGSL, at least that's what I found, 95% of the stones I reviewed were GIA and I would have bought GIA if this AGS hadn't come along.

 

OK gotta get some work done, thinking about diamonds is making me sweat a bit... good luck! Don't rush it, with that budget you should be able to find a KILLER stone.

John

Edited by John NC
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