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cathyb

Told 1.84 Looks Like A 2 Carat. Good Stone? Good Value?

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Bear in mind that faint fluorescence is literally that - faint. Unlikely to change perceived colour that much. Also, while it will have a "bleaching" effect in natural light, it will do diddly squat in artificial lighting (virtually no UV, unless it's a disco-style black light)

 

 

What you mean by "bleaching". The effects of Faint on face up transparency is like None in all types of lighting..


Barry
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There are SI2`s that are eyeclean, some even that will appear cleaner than certain SI1`s sometimes. This is where hands on diamond selection can really make a difference.

 

Jumping up to SI1 in a two carat size doesn`t guarantee that the diamond will be eyeclean. It may have a higher chance, but some will have eye visble inclusions still.

 

I tend to look for center clean SI`s with something off to the side, no large dark crystals. Then I combine that with a really nice cut too. Most of the time I can come up with some pretty nice looking ones at a good value this way.

 

Here is my pick : eyeclean SI2

 

Table 55%

Depth 62%

Crown angle 34.5

Crown height 16.

Pavilion angle 40.8

Pavilion depth 43.

Star length 55

Lower halves 75

 

Guaranteed to rock & roll :lol:

 

Can you tell me where to find the stone described above under $14K in the size I am looking at? B)

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What you mean by "bleaching". The effects of Faint on face up transparency is like None in all types of lighting..

Bleach - transitive verb

 

1: to remove color or stains from

2 a: to make whiter or lighter especially by physical or chemical removal of color

 

(from Merriam-Webster online)

 

No mention of transparency.

 

It's the well known fact that complementary colours (like blue and yellow) will cancel (or bleach) each other out.

 

ETA: quote at the top.

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
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Can you tell me where to find the stone described above under $14K in the size I am looking at? B)

 

 

If your looking for a 2.00 ct , yes.


Bradley @ DBOF.com

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Can you tell me where to find the stone described above under $14K in the size I am looking at? B)

 

 

If your looking for a 2.00 ct , yes.

 

 

I am looking at 2.25ish size. The search continues......

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Very interesting.

 

We have never seen this "bleach" whitening effect in Faint Blue diamonds, nor have customers coming to our showroom shown Faint Blue and None fluorescence diamonds, side by side in natural lighting.


Barry
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That's exactly what I was trying to say by saying that faint fluorescence is unlikely to change colour that much.

 

If one wants to be totally precise, I should have said "Bear in mind that faint fluorescence is literally that - faint. Unlikely to change perceived colour that much. Also, while it fluorescence will have a "bleaching" effect in natural light, it will do diddly squat in artificial lighting (virtually no UV, unless it's a disco-style black light).

 

That the extent of "whitening" (or however else you choose to call it) is proportional to the strenght of fluorescence seems to me so obvious that it was not worth mentioning, but perhaps it was open to misinterpretation.

Edited by davidelevi

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For Consumers researching to buy a diamond some pertinent highlights and Conclusions from the excellent 1997 GIA study on Fluorescence:

 

"Some gem diamonds fluoresce, most commonly

blue, to the concentrated long-wave ultraviolet

radiation of a UV lamp. There is a perception in

the trade that this fluorescence has a negative

effect on the overall appearance of such a diamond.

Visual observation experiments were conducted

to study this relationship. Four sets of

very similar round brilliant diamonds, covering

the color range from colorless to faint yellow,

were selected for the different commonly

encountered strengths of blue fluorescence they

represented. These diamonds were then observed

by trained graders, trade professionals, and average

observers in various stone positions and

lighting environments. For the average observer,

meant to represent the jewelry buying public, no

systematic effects of fluorescence were detected.

Even the experienced observers did not consistently

agree on the effects of fluorescence from

one stone to the next. In general, the results

revealed that strongly blue fluorescent diamonds

were perceived to have a better color appearance

when viewed table-up, with no discernible trend

table-down. Most observers saw no relationship

between fluorescence and transparency".

 

"In the

experience of GIA GTL, strength of fluorescence

does not directly correlate to either color or clarity".

 

"To better understand how common UV fluorescence

is among colorless to faint yellow diamonds,

we reviewed a random sample of 26,010 GIA GTL

grading reports for diamonds in this range. The data

revealed that approximately 65% of these diamonds

had no reported fluorescence to long-wave UV radiation.

(Note that a report description of “noneâ€

means that any fluorescence exhibited is weaker

than that of the reference stone that marks the

none/faint boundary.) Of the 35% (9,175 diamonds)

for which fluorescence was reported, 38% (3,465)

were described as having faint fluorescence and

62% (5,710) had descriptions that ranged from

medium to very strong. Of the 5,710 diamonds with

medium to very strong fluorescence, 97% (5,533)

fluoresced blue (in varying intensities) and only 3%

(162 stones) fluoresced another color (yellow, white,

or orange; no color is reported for descriptions of

faint fluorescence.). Therefore, only 35% of the

26,010 diamonds fluoresced, and less than 1% fluoresced

a color other than blue. Of the 11,901 diamonds

in the D-to-F range, a similar proportion fluoresced

(4,250 diamonds, 36% of the total)".

 

 

"DISCUSSION

For the observers in this study, the effect of blue fluorescence

on color appearance and transparency in

colorless to faint yellow diamonds was subtle. In

fact, our results indicate that Average Observers

could not make the fine distinctions sought in this

study".

 

"Of

those who did see a difference under fluorescent

lighting, it was only apparent in the table-down

position. These results challenge the notion that

strongly fluorescent diamonds typically have a hazy

appearance".

 

"One interesting aspect of this

study was that the nontrade observers could not

make meaningful distinctions. For this group,

which would be considered most representative of

the jewelry-buying public, fluorescence had no overall

effect on color appearance or transparency".

Edited by barry

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What's your point Barry? That non-trained observers cannot see the difference? For that matter, non-trained observers are unlikely to see the difference between a VVS2 and an IF, or between an F and a D, or between a 40.8 pavillion and a 41.2. Yet you are happy to accept that for some people this matters, and you price your goods accordingly.

 

Or is your point that fluorescence makes no difference? From the same study:

 

In the table-up position, there is a clear trend for strongly fluorescent diamonds to look less colored, and for diamonds with no to weak fluorescence to look more colored.

 

[...]

 

The results of this study indicate that there is a perceptible relationship between blue fluorescence and color appearance, which depends on viewing position. On average, strongly fluorescent diamonds have a better color appearance table-up, and this effect is most noticeable at lower color grades.

 

[...]

 

In the table-up position (as is commonly encountered in jewelry), diamonds described as strongly or very strongly fluorescent were, on average, reported as having a better color appearance than less fluorescent stones.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
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Who is or was talking about clarity or pricing?

 

The salient point here is obviously to give consumers coming to this forum clear and accurate information on fluorescence from the foremost authority on Gemology: GIA.

 

Specifically in reference to your previous assertion regarding a "bleaching" 'whitening' effect between Non fluorescent to Faint fluorescent diamonds.

 

David, Your assertion above: "Also, while it fluorescence will have a "bleaching" effect in natural light, it will do diddly squat in artificial lighting (virtually no UV, unless it's a disco-style black light)"

 

GIA arrives at the opposite conclusion. From the GIA study on fluorescence which I excerpted above:

 

"In the

experience of GIA GTL, strength of fluorescence

does not directly correlate to either color or clarity".

Edited by barry

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Well, the three quotes above from the same study say exactly the opposite, don't they? And that's because, when taken in to context, your assumed conclusion actually says:

 

In the experience of GIA GTL, strength of fluorescence does not directly correlate to either color or clarity. For example, a diamond with a clarity grade of internally flawless and a color grade of D can exhibit the same strength of blue fluorescence as another diamond with a clarity of I1 and a color grade of J.

 

So, what GIA is saying is that there is no relationship between fluorescence and the graded colour; you can get fluorescent stones that are high or low in colour or clarity. Not that there is no effect between perceived colour and fluorescence, which the rest of the study clearly states there is.

 

I would also appreciate it if you bothered to read other people's posts carefully, rather than inferring that they say something based on your picking up one or two trigger words.

Edited by davidelevi

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Well, the three quotes above from the same study say exactly the opposite, don't they? And that's because, when taken in to context, your assumed conclusion actually says:

 

In the experience of GIA GTL, strength of fluorescence does not directly correlate to either color or clarity. For example, a diamond with a clarity grade of internally flawless and a color grade of D can exhibit the same strength of blue fluorescence as another diamond with a clarity of I1 and a color grade of J.

 

So, what GIA is saying is that there is no relationship between fluorescence and the graded colour; you can get fluorescent stones that are high or low in colour or clarity. Not that there is no effect between perceived colour and fluorescence, which the rest of the study clearly states there is.

 

I would also appreciate it if you bothered to read other people's posts carefully, rather than inferring that they say something based on your picking up one or two trigger words.

 

Well, my flourescence question seemed to spark some reaction! David, I am now looking at an I SI2 with faint fl but dimensions to make it a much better cut. Are you against FL in a stone or just saying you don't think it will change the color?

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I am not inferring anything and I don't assume anything, David. I was very clear in responding to your inaccurate and non-existent fluorescent assertion of "bleaching" based on specifically quoting and posting what GIA said that;

 

"In the experience of GIA GTL, strength of fluorescence

does not directly correlate to either color or clarity".

 

Their finding clearly runs against your assertion that:

 

"Also, while it fluorescence will have a "bleaching" effect in natural light, it will do diddly squat in artificial lighting (virtually no UV, unless it's a disco-style black light)".

 

GIA is very clear that no such "bleaching" or whitening effect exists going from no fluorescence to Faint fluorescence.

 

Instead of responding directly to my point you go off on a tangent quoting items from the GIA study that do not directly address your inaccurate comment.

 

Please heed your own advice about reading carefully.

Edited by barry

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Barry, you keep reading and quoting selectively, making (wrong) assumptions, and you clearly are unwilling to understand what GIA or I wrote.

 

I said: "Bear in mind that faint fluorescence is literally that - faint. Unlikely to change perceived colour that much."; "That's exactly what I was trying to say by saying that faint fluorescence is unlikely to change colour that much." So it seems that we violently agree that "faint" isn't doing anything. Perhaps I have used too much British understatement, but heck, having said it twice I thought it was enough.

 

You then misread the premise by GIA - explaining the conditions, not the results of the study - explaining that you are as likely to find strong fluorescence (or any level of fluorescence - there is no correlation) in a D as in a J - nothing to do with how the level of fluorescence affects perception of colour.

 

Lastly, you accuse me of going off a tangent with the three quotes below. Would you please tell me how to interpret them if not as support to my claim that fluorescence affects the perceived colour.

 

[snip]

In the table-up position, there is a clear trend for strongly fluorescent diamonds to look less colored, and for diamonds with no to weak fluorescence to look more colored.

 

The results of this study indicate that there is a perceptible relationship between blue fluorescence and color appearance, which depends on viewing position. On average, strongly fluorescent diamonds have a better color appearance table-up, and this effect is most noticeable at lower color grades.

 

In the table-up position (as is commonly encountered in jewelry), diamonds described as strongly or very strongly fluorescent were, on average, reported as having a better color appearance than less fluorescent stones.

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
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You still are evading a direct answer to your inaccurate assertion regarding a bleaching effect occurring in faint blue diamonds compared to a diamond that has no (NONE) blue.

 

Let's try one last time:

 

"In the experience of GIA GTL, strength of fluorescence

does not directly correlate to either color or clarity".

 

Their finding clearly runs against your assertion that:

 

"Also, while it fluorescence will have a "bleaching" effect in natural light, it will do diddly squat in artificial lighting (virtually no UV, unless it's a disco-style black light)".

 

What is your response to this specific inaccuracy.


Barry
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Barry, you continue reading selectively and ignoring my questions and points.

 

I am not saying - now for the fourth time - and I have never said that faint fluorescence will do anything at all except be faint fluorescence. I conceded that my first formulation of this statement was possibly confusing, which is why I took out the "it" and replaced it with the word "fluorescence" - nowhere in the sentence you keep quoting the word faint appears. I say - and I will continue saying - that fluorescence (general term) will have a whitening, bleaching, whatever you choose to call it effect on perceived diamond colour. In that I am fully supported by the findings of the GIA study, or do you wish to contest this too?

 

Incidentally, you keep misquoting a sentence in the Background section, Observation of fluorescence subsection of the GIA paper as if it were a conclusion. It is not a conclusion; it's a premise to the design of the study, and if you did read the GIA paper entirely again - or simply my quote of it from post #61 above - you'd see what the meaning of the phrase really is. It is nothing to do with what you assert, but it is a statement that the distribution of fluorescence in stones is indipendent of their colour and clarity attributes.

Edited by davidelevi

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SERIOUSLY, could somebody answer my question besides arguing with each otherr???

 

Agree to disagree please....

 

If it lowers my price, is faint flour a bad thing in a diamond?

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Not at all, since it lowers your price and has no other effect. Don't expect it to "lift" its colour, though.

 

 

Thank you, David. I am sure you will be happy when I finally get my diamond. This SI2 eyeclean search is nearly impossible. I did look at your suggestion to go smaller. If this were not an upgrade I would consider but I do want to see a difference in size B) . I may have to go with my original stone that you say may not be as bright. I am sure having a hard time accepting that though. I have found myself only using that darn holloway cut adviser which seems to run parallel with what you are telling me in terms of depth. I upped my price a little and found this stone. I am supposed to hear back as to if this one is eyeclean but according to the HCA, it is excellent. Do you agree that this one would sparkle? THANKS, DAVID!

Measurements: 8.46 - 8.53 x 5.18 mm

Carat Weight: 2.27 carat

Color Grade: H

Clarity Grade: SI2

Cut Grade: Excellent

Proportions:

Depth: 61.0%

Table: 56%

Crown Angle: 33.5°

Crown Height: 14.5%

Pavilion Angle: 41.0°

Pavilion Depth: 43.5%

Star length: 50%

Lower Half: 80%

Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted

Culet: None

Finish:

Polish: Very Good

Symmetry: ExcellentFluorescence: None

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Faint Fluorescence is not going to have much of an impact on the price.

Medium or strong certainly will.

Personally, I really like H-I -J-K-L stones with medium, or string blue.....

No one can tell you how the diamond is going to look without seeing it.

I'd be very careful to make sure the person you're speaking with actually has the diamond to confirm that it's eye clean.

Many SI2's are- but there are also many cases of sellers that don;t have a diamond in hand answering questions as though they do.

IMO, any seller worth their salt will send you photos......

Edited by diamondsbylauren

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Cathy, if I had any way of telling you with certainty how any diamond looks based on the numbers, I'd be able to pay for your diamond outright - accurate foretelling is a valuable skill B)

 

It looks very good on paper, but so did the G/SI2 that ended up being everything but eye-clean. David has given you great advice - ask for a photo before you pay for another round of shipping charges, or at the very least make absolutely certain they have seen it. Blue Nile - as far as I know - only drop-ships, so if they tell you they are looking at it, tell them you are only paying for any shipping if the diamond is eye clean!!!

 

BTW - apologies, but I just noticed your post buried in the wreckage of the fluor wars. I think (hope) Barry and I agree that fluorescence is a non-factor in 99.999% of the cases, and in 100% of the cases where it's not very or extremely strong.

 

David: string blue? Spill chicken nit wirking? LOL

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
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David;

 

You say,

 

"I say - and I will continue saying - that fluorescence (general term) will have a whitening, bleaching, whatever you choose to call it effect on perceived diamond colour".

 

Correct, and I agree; in lower color I- and lower color as GIA finds in their study.

 

I was referring specifically to your assertion you made that this "bleaching" distinction between Non-blue to faint blues diamonds also exists which is wrong and inaccurate. Again you sidestepped a direct answer.

 

This is important and not merely an "agree to disagree" because an incorrect assertion stated as fact when the GIA clearly says otherwise is a disservice to past, present, and future consumers coming to this Forum. It sows doubt and confusion to the entire topic of Fluorescence and will no doubt deter consumers from serious consideration to purchase a diamond that is graded as Faint Blue.

 

Case in point, Cathyb on this very thread.

 

Cathy;

 

In answer to your question, "...is faint flour a bad thing in a diamond"?

 

The answer is no. It is not a bad thing. Manufacturers do not price discount diamonds that are Faint Blue.

 

The more serious consideration for you is the SI-2 clarity grade. What is the nature of this SI-2?

 

Where are the locations of the inclusions, their size and color. Black carbon under the Table may very be visible. On the other hand white feathers and scattered whitish-gray pinpoints will blend in with the facet structure of the diamond and not be visible to the eye.

 

Another consideration for you is whether any of the inclusions break the surface plane at the girdle edge. This is a red flag and suggests that this break may fracture and seriously damage your diamond. Another thing to look for is whether the diamond has an indented natural which typically will be on and in the girdle. The majority of these are safe and do not pose a danger but there are some that are. You need to find out which one it is.

 

As David Friedlander correctly advises, you need to make sure that the Vendor you're working with has the diamond in front of them and can answer all of these questions for you.

 

Good Luck!

Edited by barry

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David;

 

[snip]

I was referring specifically to your assertion you made that this "bleaching" distinction between Non-blue to faint blues diamonds also exists which is wrong and inaccurate. Again you sidestepped a direct answer.

[snip]

 

Did I?

 

[snip]

I am not saying - now for the fourth time - and I have never said that faint fluorescence will do anything at all except be faint fluorescence. I conceded that my first formulation of this statement was possibly confusing

[snip]

 

Please stop reading selectively what you want to read, and attributing to others words or intentions that they have clearly stated they haven't. I am not sidestepping anything, but you need to read what I write before you decide I'm sidestepping.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
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If it lowers my price, is faint flour a bad thing in a diamond?

 

Faint fluorescence will not lower the price or have any visual impact on the diamond.


Bradley @ DBOF.com

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