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Good Deal?


Approaching30
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I recently started my diamond search and found a beautiful loose 2.70 carat princess cut diamond from the jeweler who provided my mom's wedding ring (2nd marriage) and both my sister's engagement rings. Due to the price, I want to ensure that this is a good buy before making the purchase. The specs are as follows:

 

Carat: 2.70

 

Cut: Very Good

 

Color: E

 

Clarity: SI2

 

Price: $13,500

 

For those of you out searching, does this sound like a good deal? My girlfriend wants something big and this is in my price range.

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Yes, it comes with a GIA report from 2004. I asked for a revised copy which he agreed to give me. I question the price as well and his explanation is that he got a deal on it and with the market the way it is people in my neighborhood are not interested in such a large diamond right now. He is used to selling 1-2 carat diamonds.

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Wow- sounds like you may have found a great deal!

The price is very low- but based on what you've said, it's certainly possible.

 

In terms of a "revised copy" I belive you'll need to send the diamond to GIA for a new report.

We can order duplicates for stones we've submitted over the past few years ( there'sa time limit- but I can't say for sure what it is)- but they are dated as the original

If you confident in the dealer's ability to be sure the diamond matches the report, and that there's been no damage to the diamond I'd say that you don't really need to get a new report.

 

 

There's also no "Cut Grade" on the GIA report you are talking about.

Can you post a photo of it?

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Yeah, that's a good deal. At least assuming everything is legit, that’s a great deal. As David points out, the GIA lab didn’t issue a cut grade in 2004 so this is something that the dealer added but unless it’s really really bad this wouldn’t be a deal killer. I presume you’ve seen it and love the look so I wouldn’t be too worried. Get it appraised to be sure that it’s the correct stone, that the GIA is legit and that it hasn’t been damaged since the date of the exam and, assuming it passes, snag it.

 

I’m not even sure I would resubmit it to GIA. Assuming you aren’t planning on selling it any time soon and you are already going to an appraiser to document what you have and to confirm that there’s nothing wonky about it, I don't think you would gain much by a second lab exam.

 

Neil

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Thanks for the feedback! I'll be at the jewerly store again this weekend and will look into the information you two provided. I really like the diamond and am comfortable with the price, but can't get over the fact that I can't find anything similar near the same price. Everything is much more expensive so I am just being cautious.

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Make the deal contingent on the approval of an independent appraiser or YOUR choice (and at your expense). Ask them for, say, a week to get it inspected with a right of refund if the results aren't up to your liking. They've got nothing to lose by agreeing to this although it's reasonable for them to push you to be in a bit of a hurry about it.

 

Neil

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What else is on the GIA lab report? Can you tell us the table and depth, polish and symmetry, fluorescence and girdle?

Also is the stone second hand? If so you may want them to resubmit the stone to the laboratory to make sure there are no chips or scratches that would bring the grade down. A SI2- I1 is a big difference in price. Also if the stone is not well cut it will bring down the price of the stone.

 

 

Also make sure that you are looking at a GIA lab report, not just an appraisal by someone who has been to GIA for training. There is a huge difference. A lab report looks like the attached image. There is no price on the stone, just a grade.

 

Do you have a copy of the lab report? What is the GIA lab report number on the report? You can check it out if it is legitimate if you go to

http://www.gia.edu/reportcheck/

 

All you need is the lab report number and weight.

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Alright everyone. Here's the deal...As hinted by one of you, the diamond is not GIA certified but comes with an EGL certificate. My bad! Here are the specs...

 

Stone76034802D Weight2.70 CT ShapePRINCESS ColorE ClaritySI2 Measurements7.48 x 7.23 x 5.94 mm Depth82.2% Table69% Crown14.9% Pavilion51.6% Crown AngleN/A Pavilion AngleN/A GirdleSL. THICK TO VERY THICK POLISHED PolishGOOD TO VERY GOOD SymmetryVERY GOOD FluorescenceNONE CuletN/A Cut GradeN/A Comments UGS Appraisal ValueN/A

 

This being said, my questions now are...

 

1. Is this still a good deal? $13,030 for the loose diamond?

2. From a jeweler's standpoint, is this diamond flawed in any way? I want a nice size diamond that is eye clean and good color.

3. Can I request GIA certification?

4. What are the positives and negatives of GIA versus EGL? I've read a bit on the forums and question if I should still go with this or not.

 

Thanks again for all your help! I'm glad this forum is available to get a third party opinion!

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Alright everyone. Here's the deal...As hinted by one of you, the diamond is not GIA certified but comes with an EGL certificate. My bad! Here are the specs...

 

Stone76034802D Weight2.70 CT ShapePRINCESS ColorE ClaritySI2 Measurements7.48 x 7.23 x 5.94 mm Depth82.2% Table69% Crown14.9% Pavilion51.6% Crown AngleN/A Pavilion AngleN/A GirdleSL. THICK TO VERY THICK POLISHED PolishGOOD TO VERY GOOD SymmetryVERY GOOD FluorescenceNONE CuletN/A Cut GradeN/A Comments UGS Appraisal ValueN/A

 

This being said, my questions now are...

 

1. Is this still a good deal? $13,030 for the loose diamond?

2. From a jeweler's standpoint, is this diamond flawed in any way? I want a nice size diamond that is eye clean and good color.

3. Can I request GIA certification?

4. What are the positives and negatives of GIA versus EGL? I've read a bit on the forums and question if I should still go with this or not.

 

Thanks again for all your help! I'm glad this forum is available to get a third party opinion!

 

 

1. Is this still a good deal? $13,030 for the loose diamond?

 

If it’s correctly graded, yes. If it’s not, it depends on how much it’s off by. As Jan points out, if it’s an I-1/J, it’s likely to be a problem.

 

2. From a jeweler's standpoint, is this diamond flawed in any way? I want a nice size diamond that is eye clean and good color.

 

Don’t know, we can’t see the stone.

 

3. Can I request GIA certification?

 

Sure. Request whatever you want.

 

4. What are the positives and negatives of GIA versus EGL? I've read a bit on the forums and question if I should still go with this or not.

 

GIA is a reliable source of grading information for diamonds.

EGL is very friendly to talk to on the telephone and they have a cool logo with a microscope in it.

 

There's another thread recently that asks this very question in the title.

 

5. Who would have to pay for the GIA report? I see it's about $154 for a 2.70 caret.

 

My usual advice is to agree that if the grading on the report is correct, which is what the dealer is telling you, you will pay for the fees as well as the shipping costs. If it’s not, meaning if they are wrong in what they are telling you, they pay all fees and expenses and you walk away. Make sure it meets all of your other requirements before you send it off (GIA doesn’t talk about cutting on princess cuts so all you are confirming by sending it to them is the color and clarity).

 

That one's pretty deep at 82.2% so my expectation is that there are some issues with the cut, possibly serious ones. Have it checked out by your own expert before you make a final commitment to it and probably before you even ship it to GIA (assuming the seller agrees to even do that).

 

Neil

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Forget this diamond, and continue shopping.

Very likely GIA would have ( or actually did) grade this diamond I1.

Getting a GIA report for the diamond won't make it more valuable.

 

 

The dealer's stories are now very thin.

 

If he had a desirable 2.70ct, it would not really matter if local folks did not buy such stones- he'd be able to sell it to a dealer.

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My usual advice is to agree that if the grading on the report is correct, which is what the dealer is telling you, you will pay for the fees as well as the shipping costs. If it’s not, meaning if they are wrong in what they are telling you, they pay all fees and expenses and you walk away. Make sure it meets all of your other requirements before you send it off (GIA doesn’t talk about cutting on princess cuts so all you are confirming by sending it to them is the color and clarity).

 

I have tremendous respect for Neil- I write as a seller of diamonds, while Neil is an appraiser- giving us slightly different points of view.

Based on the prevailing practices I see sellers using, I feel that it's bad advice to tell people to ask the seller of an EGL /IGI "certified" diamond to send the diamond to GIA.

The hard cold fact is that the dealers promoting the sub standard reports still operate in the same market honest dealers do.

So- if one of these dealers has a legit E/SI2 well cut princess with GIA report, the price is going to be the same, or higher, than a dealer who didn't start by attempting to mislead the buyer.

 

Someone tries to mislead me to separate me from my money? I run ( not walk) away.

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Uh-oh. Alarm bells ringing. Twice. First it's not GIA; second it sounds like UGS, not EGL.

 

1. Far less than it sounded before. Far far less, especially since you are looking at an "SI2" grade not issued by GIA.

 

2. The stone sounds a bit deep at 82%, which reinforces the suspicion about cut quality. As far as "eye clean" and "good colour", it's impossible to judge without seeing the stone, and anyway it's a subjective judgement - what looks "clean" to you may not look "clean" to me. Even taking into account all the inconsistency in grading (see 4. below), it's likely - but not certain - that the stone will look fairly white. I would definitely look very very very closely at the clarity.

 

3. Of course you can. Anyone can submit pretty much any untreated diamond. For a stone that size, it will cost about $200 plus shipping and insurance. However, I would imagine that if the stone were worth submitting (i.e. not likely to come up as a I1 or even I2), the jeweller would have done that already.

 

4. Basically GIA and AGSL set the standard in diamond grading. Other labs are less consistent in their grading and therefore reports are far less valuable in assessing what the stone really is like. Since they are less consistent (and generally perceived as "more lenient"), dealers will tend to send marginal stones to these labs in the hope they'll come up on the "right" side of the grading scale. By no means does this make a non-GIA/AGSL graded stone automatically worthless or ugly, but the grade (and thus the value) becomes very open to questioning.

 

Tread very carefully.

 

ETA: Whoopsie. That's what happens when one is slow at posting. I was editing, and Neil and David already said it all. So now you have the Dealer, the Appraiser and the Consumer all largely agreeing your best bet is another stone... :D

Edited by davidelevi
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My usual advice is to agree that if the grading on the report is correct, which is what the dealer is telling you, you will pay for the fees as well as the shipping costs. If it’s not, meaning if they are wrong in what they are telling you, they pay all fees and expenses and you walk away. Make sure it meets all of your other requirements before you send it off (GIA doesn’t talk about cutting on princess cuts so all you are confirming by sending it to them is the color and clarity).

 

I have tremendous respect for Neil- I write as a seller of diamonds, while Neil is an appraiser- giving us slightly different points of view.

Based on the prevailing practices I see sellers using, I feel that it's bad advice to tell people to ask the seller of an EGL /IGI "certified" diamond to send the diamond to GIA.

The hard cold fact is that the dealers promoting the sub standard reports still operate in the same market honest dealers do.

So- if one of these dealers has a legit E/SI2 well cut princess with GIA report, the price is going to be the same, or higher, than a dealer who didn't start by attempting to mislead the buyer.

 

Someone tries to mislead me to separate me from my money? I run ( not walk) away.

Every now and again EGL does get it right but I agree that it rarely occurs on the SI2 or near the H/I borderlines and it’s rarely makes it to market on a large stone but there are actually dealers out there who really don’t know the difference. *IF* it’s an SI2 and *IF* it’s a G we obviously agree that it’s a deal despite the questionable cut. The issue is what is the likelihood of that. You’re taking the position that it’s zero, I’m taking the position that as along as the store is assuming all of the risk if it doesn’t measure up, the exposure to the consumer is low.

 

I don’t recall a single customer reporting back that their dealer took them up on this offer by the way, and the act of asking them to put their money where their mouth is has a positive effect on both how the jeweler presents their products in the future and how the consumer shops, either there or elsewhere. This may even have an effect on what they choose to offer future customers because they know that customers are increasingly sensitive to it. Both sides come away the better for it and neither one is out any money. I call that a win/win scenario.

 

Jewelers who sell EGL are not all crooks, some are just ill informed. :D

 

Neil

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second it sounds like UGS, not EGL.

 

Watch out for these acronyms. It's easy to confuse companies. UGS is the 'appraisal' division of EGL-USA and I certainly agree that their reports are generally nonsense for most purposes but they rely on EGL-USA grading. I suspect you are thinking of UGL, which is a completely different company.

 

Neil

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second it sounds like UGS, not EGL.

 

Watch out for these acronyms. It's easy to confuse companies. UGS is the 'appraisal' division of EGL-USA and I certainly agree that their reports are generally nonsense for most purposes but they rely on EGL-USA grading. I suspect you are thinking of UGL, which is a completely different company.

 

Neil

Thanks for this tip!

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My usual advice is to agree that if the grading on the report is correct, which is what the dealer is telling you, you will pay for the fees as well as the shipping costs. If it’s not, meaning if they are wrong in what they are telling you, they pay all fees and expenses and you walk away. Make sure it meets all of your other requirements before you send it off (GIA doesn’t talk about cutting on princess cuts so all you are confirming by sending it to them is the color and clarity).

 

I have tremendous respect for Neil- I write as a seller of diamonds, while Neil is an appraiser- giving us slightly different points of view.

Based on the prevailing practices I see sellers using, I feel that it's bad advice to tell people to ask the seller of an EGL /IGI "certified" diamond to send the diamond to GIA.

The hard cold fact is that the dealers promoting the sub standard reports still operate in the same market honest dealers do.

So- if one of these dealers has a legit E/SI2 well cut princess with GIA report, the price is going to be the same, or higher, than a dealer who didn't start by attempting to mislead the buyer.

 

Someone tries to mislead me to separate me from my money? I run ( not walk) away.

Every now and again EGL does get it right but I agree that it rarely occurs on the SI2 or near the H/I borderlines and it’s rarely makes it to market on a large stone but there are actually dealers out there who really don’t know the difference.

 

No question there are retail sellers out there who don;t their a$$ from a diamond- but I don;t believe that a 2.70 ct diamond made it from mine to the jewelers store without going through the hands of cutters and dealers that DO know the difference

 

*IF* it’s an SI2 and *IF* it’s a G we obviously agree that it’s a deal despite the questionable cut. No, I would not say that an extremely deep Princess cut would be a good deal- even if it is the color and clarity stated

 

The issue is what is the likelihood of that. You’re taking the position that it’s zero, I’m taking the position that as along as the store is assuming all of the risk if it doesn’t measure up, the exposure to the consumer is low.

 

I don’t recall a single customer reporting back that their dealer took them up on this offer by the way, and the act of asking them to put their money where their mouth is has a positive effect on both how the jeweler presents their products in the future and how the consumer shops, either there or elsewhere. This may even have an effect on what they choose to offer future customers because they know that customers are increasingly sensitive to it. Both sides come away the better for it and neither one is out any money. I call that a win/win scenario.

 

Jewelers who sell EGL are not all crooks, some are just ill informed. :D

 

Neil

 

Again, I believe it's our different positions in the industry causing us to view this differently.

 

From where I sit, if the seller is simply ignorant of diamonds- or, if the seller knows about diamonds yet attempts to confuse the gem lab issue, they don;t deserve a buyer's business.

 

We agree that not all sellers of diamonds with EGL reports fit into either category.

It's a simple conversation to explain the difference.

But I'd also add that the legit sellers representing this issue transparently would never show the higher qualities of diamonds without a GIA report.

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Not to beat a dead horse, but we have a few diamonds with EGL reports on our site.

I have graded this diamond to the best of my ability- and call it L/VS2.

r2736f.JPG

 

Here's what we have on the listing page:

The grades below are ours. There is an EGL report calling the center diamond J/VS2. We respectfully disagree with that result- and in fact, never advertise a diamond as "certified" without a grade from a GIA report.
and
There is no GIA report on this item. The diamond has an EGL report, which we disagree with. We will include that if you request.

 

The EGL report is useful for the measurements- and EGL WILL be able to tell if a diamond has been treated- so there is value.....

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Again, I believe it's our different positions in the industry causing us to view this differently.

I agree. There may also be an element of geography involved. There are likely more sharks like were discussing on your block than in my whole state. On the other hand, the folks who just don’t understand the question but who are otherwise good people are probably better represented out here in flyover country.

 

Neil

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