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Egl Us Vs Gia


sfrank
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I am really hoping I can get an expert unbiased opinion on the EGL US VS GIA certification debate because I currently located a stone that seems to be a great fit for all my requirements, however I am weary because it has an EGL US certification. It would be an online purchase so unfortunately I haven't seen the stone with my own two eyes. The color is a G so I am aware that if could possibly really be an H which I am willing to live with. It is a hearts and arrow diamond with the right measurements for the table and depth. There is no flourescence, SI1 clarity, round brilliant 4ct diamond, polish is excellent, and symmetry is very good. The price is pretty competitive because I am going through a supplier. I can give exact measurements if necessary. MY concern is why would this stone not have been sent in for GIA certification rather than EGL? I would think the dealer would make higher profit margins that way unless there is something off with the stone that EGL would be more lenient on aside from color. Please help, thanks!! :rolleyes:

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MY concern is why would this stone not have been sent in for GIA certification rather than EGL? I would think the dealer would make higher profit margins that way unless there is something off with the stone that EGL would be more lenient on aside from color. Please help, thanks!! :rolleyes:

What debate? You've answered your own question.

 

Follow the money. :unsure:

 

Neil

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HI Sfrank,

This is exactly the type of situation where you need to buy a diamond ONLY if it has a GIA, or AGSL report.

 

There is NO bottom on the price when a diamond is lacking the GIA or AGSL report.

 

Furthermore, the seller should really be telling you this- if they are in the diamond business, they understand this very well.

If they are not, they've already shown a willingness to engage in deceptive practices.

Is that someone you want to send money to?

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There IS something off with the stone - it may be colour, it may be something else.

 

If you are really really keen on the stone, only purchase if the seller gives you an unconditional, 100% money-back written guarantee valid for at least 14 days. Then get the stone graded properly (GIA has a one-week or so turnaround, if you want to go the whole hog, but a competent independent appraiser will be faster and cheaper) and act based on the results of that.

 

Even better - tell the seller you will agree to purchase the stone once it has been graded by GIA. If the GIA grade is the same as the EGL grade plus or minus one grade on colour, you will pay the GIA fees and shipping as well as the stone. Otherwise, they keep the stone and GIA's bill. Just let us know when you tell them that - we all like watching fireworks. :rolleyes:

 

**********************************

 

ETA: David - congratulations on 1000th post! (sorry for the highjacking)

Edited by davidelevi
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Thank you Davide!!!

 

I would say that using an appraiser for this purpose is not going to solve the problem.

When it comes time to sell, the lack of a GIA report ( even with the most competent appraiser's report) will make the diamond worth far less.

 

In the current economic climate, we get a lot of calls from people wanting to sell their diamonds.

 

The first question I ask "Does it have a GIA Report" will be the first question just about any legit dealer will ask.

 

Even if Neil ( or someone of his caliber) had appraised it, that won't serve the same purpose as the GIA report.

 

There's no chance the seller will send it off to GIA- in fact, I'd put money on the fact that the diamond was already submitted to GIA. The dealer was likely unhappy with the results, ergo the substandard report.

The difference between an I/SI1 4.00 and an H/SI1 4.00 could be more than $10k- which is why I believe the diamond has already been to GIA.

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There IS something off with the stone - it may be colour, it may be something else.

 

If you are really really keen on the stone, only purchase if the seller gives you an unconditional, 100% money-back written guarantee valid for at least 14 days. Then get the stone graded properly (GIA has a one-week or so turnaround, if you want to go the whole hog, but a competent independent appraiser will be faster and cheaper) and act based on the results of that.

 

Even better - tell the seller you will agree to purchase the stone once it has been graded by GIA. If the GIA grade is the same as the EGL grade plus or minus one grade on colour, you will pay the GIA fees and shipping as well as the stone. Otherwise, they keep the stone and GIA's bill. Just let us know when you tell them that - we all like watching fireworks. :rolleyes:

 

**********************************

 

So here is the interesting thing. As I was doing all my research, I found the same exact stone on a very reputable online site. I spoke with a rep there and he gave me some detailed information. Apparantly, there is one small black spot inclusion on the table and on the side there are two small white feathers. Nothing is visible to the naked eye. I am really not educated on what feathers are so I would love to hear what you have to say about that. Would that make the stone an SI2 rather than a SI1. Although it is an EGL G, GIA would probably say it were an H but overall does this make it a not so great quality stone even though it is a hearts and arrow. Most say H is still fairly colorless. The place I originally saw the stone gave me a price of around 49,500 but I haven't started bargaining yet. The reputable online site was a few thousand more. So I guess I am just wondering if I should forget about this stone b/c quality is essential and drop down into the 3 range with a GIA cert or could I have found something possibly good?

 

I like the idea of seeing what the dealer would say about bringing it to GIA! I probably won't get a response back haha. She does have a money back guarantee. Thank you for all your help!!!

 

ETA: David - congratulations on 1000th post! (sorry for the highjacking)

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HI sfrank- I honestly believe that when shoppers make these assumptions, it's faulty reasoning.

Did the dealer who told you abut the stone mention whether or not they actually had the stone- or were they also looking at a report?

 

If the stone is on the db list pool that most sites use to populate their inventory, it's quite possible that a rep could look at a plot, and describe the stone.

There's no way for anyone to grade a diamond based on knowing if there are feathers, carbon spots- or any verbal descrption of the diamond- it must be seen. It's not possible toknow if a diamond is eye clean by looking at a plot.

I'm not saying the diamond is not eye clean- only that a lot of people make these assumptions.

A nicely cut 4ct H/SI1, EX cut grade WITH a GIA report goes for more than $70k.

I've been in this business a long time- there's ample reason this one is less than $50k

 

As I've already said- I have strong suspicions that the diamond has already been to GIA. I'd be interested in your take on these points?

I would love to see you get a great stone- my points are made because I've seen a lot of people make thse mistakes.

Edited by diamondsbylauren
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Sfrank,

 

As usual, I agree with both David and Davide. You are using the lab report to supply you with some critical information on which to base your decision and to make comparison with other potential offers, in particular.

 

Color G

Clarity SI1

Hearts and Arrows symmetry

 

You obviously already understand that EGL is a less reliable source of information by the following comment.

 

The color is a G so I am aware that if could possibly really be an H which I am willing to live with.

 

This is a giant step down the road to hell. You’re now applying a conversion factor to say that EGL-G = GIA-H. How did you get this? Indeed, sometimes it is, but what if it’s GIA-I. Or GIA-J? What if GIA would grade the stone SI2 or even I-1? What if it’s both. What if they already have? What if EGL – H&A Ideal means GIA-Good, at least in this case.

 

As David points out, with a 4 carater you can bet that the choice of labs was made by an expert and it was made in order to MAXIMIZE the price rather than to minimize the fees. It’s highly likely that it’s already got GIA papers and, if so, it’s certain that what they say is different from what you are reporting. If not, you would be asking us about that report and the EGL document would have been lost to history. A GIA/H/SI2/XXX will trade for more and sell faster than the same stone documented as an EGL/G/SI1/H&A. Probably quite a bit more. The fees are about $300. Assuming that you’ve found the lucky one that slipped through the experts hands and someone left $10,000 on the table in order to save $300 is a bold assumption indeed. It’s possible, but are you really willing to bet $50k of your hard earned money on this assumption when the ‘truth’ costs $300 plus some shipping? Apparently the dealer’s answer is ‘yes’. Betting your money is no problem. Personally, I would be more cautious.

 

How about this. Agree to buy it if GIA agrees with the G/SI1 or even H/SI1 and gives it a cut grade of Very Good or better. You’ll pay the full asking price, all GIA fees and all shipping costs along with the ‘rush’ fee from GIA to get it done in a few days. Heck, even toss in an extra $500 in extra profit to cover their trouble. Anything less and the deals off, they pay all the fees and you walk away. Pretty fair huh? Dollars to donuts they refuse this offer. Why? Betcha they know something you don’t.

 

Neil

post-109418-1222343699_thumb.jpg

Edited by denverappraiser
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:rolleyes:

 

Yeah, and this time the truth is out there.

 

OK, so I have spoken with this dealer and I don't think she is out to get me per se. She has numerous GIA stones as well as EGL diamonds. When she informs me about a specific EGL stone, she has been telling me now where she thinks they have been lenient in their grading. In addition, if I have serious interst in an EGL stone, she would be willing to send it to GIA for grading. I can also meet with her in person to look at the stones which is an advantage over purchasing from a Union Diamonds or Blue Nile. So for example, she emailed me some GIA stones and included one EGL stone with the following description:

Round4.32cts.G colorVS2 clarity (strong vs2 inclusions cannot be seen with loupe)Excellent cut Excellent polishExcellent SymmetryHearts & ArrowsEGL Belgium ( although it is egl Belgium, the clarity is a strong vs2 and the color would possibly come back as h if certified by gia)Total Acquisition Cost: $61,000.00 USD

Don't get me wrong, I am definitely looking into GIA diamonds, but if I know I want a hearts and arrow stone SI1 clarity, h or better color, is it possible to find that in and EGL diamond and just pay for a GIA cert to make sure that is what I am getting prior to final purchase? I mean if this suppier is willing to send it to GIA then doesn't that seem like a pretty good situation? She did tell me it costs about 100 dollars per ct to get a diamond certified by GIA and takes up to a month. Why she would agree to this is beyond my understanding since you are saying she would be able to get 10,000 more or so with the a GIA cert that is comparable to what the EGL states, but apparantly she is willing to. However, I will need to make it clear that she would have to eat the cost if it doesn't match up. She may change her tune once I emphasize that. I doubt she would have us go through all of that if it wouldn't come back comparable, give or take one color grade difference. I don't see what her incentive would be. So that is my update upon speaking to her and asking her what you told me to ask but I will definitely do what you suggest by telling her she would have to eat the cost of the GIA cert if it doesn't match.

 

In addition, I am not sure if you would know this but I live in NYC. Do you by chance know of someone that you could recommend? I mean of course I am in the center of the diamond district but finding someone who will have what I want, at the price I am willing to pay, and at the same time be trustworthy is like finding a needle in a hay stack hahah!

 

Samantha

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The GIA lab for stones over 4cts is located in NYC so there won’t be a serious shipping issue like there is for the rest of the country. Lucky you.

 

FYI, here’s their fee structure.

 

http://www.gia.edu/gemtradelab/31548/fees.cfm

 

They are quoting 10-12 business days turnaround time at the moment and there’s an automatic rush on 4 carat and over stones. That means 2-4 business days.

 

I agree that there is tremendous value in buying a stone from a dealer who can actually show you the merchandise. Her offer is fair. If she finds you an EGL stone that you like and meet all of your other specs and she will guarantee the grade matches GIA’s, hold her to it. If the stone meets all of your other standards, she sends it to GIA for grading. You pay the fee and buy the stone for the agreed price if she’s right, she pays and you walk if she’s wrong.

 

Hearts and Arrows is not a GIA grade so this claim won’t be something that is being supported or refuted by them. Since she’s got the stone in hand, she should be able to show you the pattern through a special viewer that pretty much every dealer has. She should be able to explain it to you.

 

You're certainly right that finding the right jeweler is difficult and it seems to be worse in NYC.

 

Neil

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Samantha, what it looks like is that now that you've gotten better educated, all of a sudden the dealer is being more up front about EGL.

I don't believe anyone is "out to get you" but I do know that dealers that use these tactics put their clients in a bad position.

Having seen similar situations literally hundreds of times- I'd say that the dealer has already proven themselves to be untrustworthy.

The $61,000 diamond might be absolutely gorgeous. But there's no way it's anywhere near a 4.32 G/VS2 with a GIA report EX cut grade.

The fact she's still trying to sell you on these bogus grades is sad really.

 

Anyone out there today trying to sell a diamond will quickly find out how much the GIA report is worth- conversely, they could also learn the hard way how little an EGL Belgium report is worth.

 

Although I'd love to see what the GIA results will be on the $61,000 4.32ct stone, my feeling is that the dealer is still in the "sell you using any means necessary "mode.

Although she seems to indicate she would, I don't believe she will waste the time or money to re-submit the diamond.

I strongly feel that dealers using these tactics should be avoided.

 

Without doubt, NO dealer is going to sell you a $100,000+ diamond for $61k

If you maintain your parameters: 4ct plus, EX cut Grade, H color/SI1, you're looking at a price of at least $80k

 

OR you can buy from someone who will lie to you in an effort to get your $61k. Sadly, sellers in this category are NOT in short supply.

 

My strong recommendation: Under no circumstances should buyers consider stones of this caliber without a GIA, or AGSL lab report- OR sellers promoting such stones.

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For further reading on EGL vs. GIA I suggest this link:

 

 

http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=93353

 

I wonder where the limit should be on trusting an EGL cert, whether on size of diamond or size of budget from posters on this site. I say never, why bother.

 

Your budget ceiling will dictate how high of quality you can get with respect to a 4ct size. If a GIA stone of the particular color/clarity you are looking for goes for $100k and someone is pushing a $60k diamond and making claims of the diamond being the "same" as that GIA graded diamond, good luck.

 

I'd suggest looking up what a GIA 4ct $60k diamond quality is and that is most likely what that EGL diamond ACTUALLY is on it's best day. This still could be an awesome diamond for you if that $60k is your budget...but hopefully this sheds light on the "comparison" issue.

 

Marty

CEO/Pres

Diamond Brokerage Service, Inc

www.dbsdiamonds.com

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