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Clarity Enhanced Princess Cut


terrie
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Hello everyone we are new here and need your help we purchased a two carat princess cut diamond from NY and once we got home our appraiser told us that the stone was "fracture filled" to our surprise. After several calls to the jeweller they have now agreed to replace the stone as we did not know that it was clarity enhanced and did not want that type of diamond. But now they are telling us to do our due dilagence and research what type of stone we want, they need two weeks notice to get the stones in for us to look at we live in Western Canada and now have to fly back to NY to get the stone we thought we had purchased, we paid 10,000 for this stone, here are the specs for UGL

 

measurements 7.10x6.70x4.90

carat weight 2.01

depth 73.1%

tablee 76%

girdle Sl thick to thick

culet none

color f

clarity grade SI-1* (found out what that meant when we got home and were told it was fracture filled)

polish/symmetry both good

 

We have been told that they would replace it with a UGL certificate non enhanced at no cost, made no sense to us, I am sure the cut and color would not be good or that we could get a IGI or AGS for considerably more. If we could please get some help here at to it the stone we have not bad , good or really bad and also when we go what do we ask for, it can be a little smaller if need be , but I have no idea what to fax them as to the 4 c's of what we are looking at your help would be oh so appreciated.

 

thank you so much, confused

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Given your set of facts and without knowing what was told to you during the sale, the jeweler has committed a serious misrepresentation by selling you an enhanced stone without full disclosure. In my book that shoots their credibility completely to hell and nothing short of a full refund and sniveling apology would be sufficient before I would even contemplate their proposed alternative. Possibly not even that but I suppose it depends on how forgiving you are.

 

After you have your money back, consider whether you are willing to take a stab at doing business with them again but not before. Where you are now is not a ‘replacement’ situation. Demand a refund, in full and in cash (or whatever method you used to pay them) before you even will even consider an alternative offer.

 

What to fax them is a demand for a refund and a request for shipping instructions on how to safely and securely return their stone. It is decidedly not necessary to fly to NY to do this.

 

I am sure the cut and color would not be good or that we could get a IGI or AGS for considerably more.

 

You apparently already know that UGL is not a reliable source for grading information. Given that, why are you considering relying on them?

 

Neil

Edited by denverappraiser
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Ditto what Neal said.

 

As far as doing your own research though, I found this site and others and really like using www.bluenile.com for diamond searches. I am looking for round so it may not be the same, but I'd guess it is. Then you can use their inventory search engine to see what price you can expect for what diamond characteristics as far as what is important to you.

 

From what you thought you were buying, their cheapest choice seems to be about $13.3k. So if you want a better quality version of what they were giving you it will cost considerably more. You will likely find that there is no deal in the diamond search. It's very similar to commodities. You won't find gold bullion for much different prices no matter where you look. There's tons of different grades of diamonds, but they all have a price that all the market knows so unless it's 2nd hand from an individual you will only find very small margins of differences in diamond prices. That's why I use that website as a reference. HUGE inventory search engine, but then find a dealer you like if not them direct.

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You see thats the thing, not once were we ever told this was an enhanced stone, it was a gift for my 25th anniversary and had we even heard the word enhanced we would not have accepted it. In Canada we cant even buy enhanced stones from jewellers so we didnt even know what they were. Here's the kicker, we have to go along with them and the exchange/upgrade we are not given any choice by the jeweller. I guess I dont have a problem with that as they could have told us to take a hike, but there is no way that I am going to let them have this ring shipped and them replace the stone without us seeing it first and demanding to see the certificate with the stone at the time it is picked. From what I have been reading UGL is the lowest on the totem pole of diamond grading, little did we know at the time. A lesson learned to really do research before making such a purchase. We know need to know what to ask them for. We are willing to pay a little more for a new stone, even a lower color if the cut is good, we just do not know what to ask them for so that they can have these on hand when we arrive

 

 

 

 

 

Hello everyone we are new here and need your help we purchased a two carat princess cut diamond from NY and once we got home our appraiser told us that the stone was "fracture filled" to our surprise. After several calls to the jeweller they have now agreed to replace the stone as we did not know that it was clarity enhanced and did not want that type of diamond. But now they are telling us to do our due dilagence and research what type of stone we want, they need two weeks notice to get the stones in for us to look at we live in Western Canada and now have to fly back to NY to get the stone we thought we had purchased, we paid 10,000 for this stone, here are the specs for UGL

 

measurements 7.10x6.70x4.90

carat weight 2.01

depth 73.1%

tablee 76%

girdle Sl thick to thick

culet none

color f

clarity grade SI-1* (found out what that meant when we got home and were told it was fracture filled)

polish/symmetry both good

 

We have been told that they would replace it with a UGL certificate non enhanced at no cost, made no sense to us, I am sure the cut and color would not be good or that we could get a IGI or AGS for considerably more. If we could please get some help here at to it the stone we have not bad , good or really bad and also when we go what do we ask for, it can be a little smaller if need be , but I have no idea what to fax them as to the 4 c's of what we are looking at your help would be oh so appreciated.

 

thank you so much, confused

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Selling undisclosed fracture filling is an FTC (fair trade commission) violation in the US. Check carefully on any and all of the paperwork you were given at the time of sale, especially the receipt and any packaging, and look for disclosure. Assuming it’s not there, do the following.

 

#1. DO NOT agree to buy another diamond from these people until this is resolved.

 

#2 If you don’t have it already, get the statement that the stone is fracture filled in writing and signed by an uninvolved expert. You want as specific and as detailed a report as you can get.

 

#3 Ask, in writing, for a refund on the grounds that the stone was misrepresented and specifically that it contains undisclosed treatment. Keep copies of all paperwork and all communications either to or from them no matter how trivial it seems. If you get it, call it a victory and skip the rest. If not, move on to step 4. Do not skip this step even if it seems pointless. If you don't ask for it, they are being entirely reasonable to not give you a refund and if it's not in writing then you didn't ask.

 

#4 How did you pay? If there’s a credit card involved, file a protest with the credit card company. Provide them with copies of the documents generated above.

 

#5 Contact these people. http://www.jvclegal.org. Pay her the $100 and file a complaint. She’s pretty good at getting results if your case is any good and she’s pretty good at giving you the straight skinny if it’s not.

 

#6 Contact these guys: http://www.newyork.bbb.org. They're toothless but it's a good gesture for the benefit of the next victim.

 

#7 Contact these guys and file a complaint on the grounds of the FTC violation: http://www.oag.state.ny.us/bureaus/consume...auds/about.html They are definitely not toothless but it usually takes a pattern for them to build a case. If you're the first victim they may not do much but if you are one of many they can. Besides, if you're the first victim and you don't file, the next person has a weaker case because of you. It's good for your karma even if it doesn't result in a refund. Pressure from these folks definitely will get the jeweler's attention.

 

Neil

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I agree that the behavior of the seller is criminal.

 

I would not give them another chance, as they've already proved themselves to be untrustworthy.

This was not mistake- it was willful deception.

 

Sad to think of the poor buyers who did not find out they were ripped off.

 

I pray you get a resolution to this- if they want you to fly back to NYC, they should pay for the flight- and a hotel.

Then just give them back their plastic filled diamond and demand a refund.

 

If this is a dealer with a store on 47th Street, it does NOT take 2 weeks to get such a diamond, they can get it in 2 hours or less.

F/SI1 2.00 Princess Cut diamonds are not all that hard for dealers to find.

 

 

 

I'd also say that no legit dealer can offer a 2ct F/SI1, well cut Princess cut diamond for $13,300- as was suggested above.

Yes, you might find such a price in a list, but in all likelihood, the diamond either has a poor cut, or it won;t be available when you order.

 

It's possible to buy a beautiful 2ct Princess Cut for $13,300- or even $10k- with a GIA report- but it won't be F/Si1.

In many cases, dishonest sellers feed into an honest desire on the part of buyers to get a "deal" by purposfully misrepresenting the grade with bogus "certs"( and UGL has less than zero credibility among dealers) - or in your case -non disclosed enhanced diamonds.

 

I really hope you paid by credit card, and you can dispute the charge.

It's great to visit NYC- but not because a crooked dealer is holding a gun to your head......

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Sorry Neil , I started on the other forum but found this one to be much more informative right now. We spoke to the jeweller yesterday, and heres what they are saying, when we purchased the ring and band they had to set the stone and size the ring we came back in two days to pick up the ring, since we were from Canada, didnt want to take the papers across so we asked them to mail us the certificate. We did pay by credit card and we had that receipt, we never saw any other one. They have said that they dug up the paper receipt (we have no copy of this) and we told them so, and they said that it does say "CE" on it. When we got the certificate it also says CE but absolutely no explanation as to what that was anywhere, this is a UGL report. We told the jeweller that we were told we were getting a GIA report because thats all we knew. Here at home thats all anyone offers for a grading certificate or they offer no certificate at all, we had no idea until now that there were so many, again "lesson learned" anyways we took the ring and certificate to our appraiser who immediately told us that the stone was fracture filled and the certificate is the most misleading one he had ever seen. He explained to me that he would not have even known what the CE meant at the bottom as no where on the UGL certificate is there an explanation. So heres where we stand today, the jeweller has told us that he does not deal with GIA, only UGL and two others. He didnt give us the names, I faxed him this morning asking him to fax me with the two names of the other grading certificates they supply. Once we know, he has told us to do our due diligence this time and go and pick what size type cut color we want and he will exchange the stone. We have decided we still want a 2ct, color D-H, vs1-2, very good cut I think we have narrowed that down however he is adamant that we have no proof that we did not see the hand written receipt and I can swear we didnt there fore there will be no refund only an exchange and an additional payment as the stone will be worth more. So as of now this is where we are, I am still waiting for the fax, NTY is three hours ahead of us, so its 2pm there so once I get it I will let you know the other grading companies they use. It appears that we are kindof stuck with them to replace this stone and we are trying to be as reasonable with them as possible, because we dont want to get kicked to the curb if we threaten or say the wrong thing

 

Terrie

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I'd also say that no legit dealer can offer a 2ct F/SI1, well cut Princess cut diamond for $13,300- as was suggested above.

Yes, you might find such a price in a list, but in all likelihood, the diamond either has a poor cut, or it won;t be available when you order.

 

Just search bluenile and see what you can find. That is what I did and they are absolutely legit. I found a like diamond to what he purchased. Not an excellent one. His is CE so it's trying to compare apples to apples without worms. :rolleyes: That was their cheapest, but it went up from there depending on what you want.

 

On a personal note, I'd suggest getting a lower color and higher cut and clarity if it were me. G or H then put the extra savings to upgrade the rest.

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My advice is unchanged.

 

Have your jeweller put it in writing and sign it if he hasn’t already.

 

Write your story down, including the timeline. Keep a diary as this unfolds containing everything you say, everything they say, every phone call, every fax, every email etc. Keep everything.

 

Politely ask for a refund, in writing. Ask for instructions on how to return the merchandise, in writing. When they refuse, and they will refuse, call the credit card company and start a dispute. Don't just threaten to do this. DO IT. Be prepared to provide them with copies all of the above documents along with the receipt and all other documents you were given along with the envelopes with the postmarks that demonstrate when they sent them.

 

You have already been ‘kicked to the curb’. You’re about to be kicked again. You really might want to consult with an attorney about this before you do anything if you're not comfortable making waves. I guarantee that this story will not end without confrontation, even if you accept their alternative although it may be marginally more acceptable to you. Cellia Gardner (the lady at jvclegal that I linked to earlier) is a cheap way to get some professional advice and who has experience in this arena if you don't have council of your own.

 

Neil

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Terrie,

 

Just to reinforce what Neil said - it's essential to get a request for a refund in writing, and once that is refused get onto your credit card company ASAP. They should suspend payment on the item to the dealer, and not ask you for the money until the dispute is closed.

 

Also - do make it crystal clear on your request for a refund that you have not been given a receipt apart from the credit card slip, and that you still haven't got a copy of their supposed receipt (it may be interesting if it is numbered progressively to compare dates with what was immediately before or after it).

 

FWIW, I had to go through something similar (involving a piece of "antique" furniture, but still a fraud) a couple of years ago. It took me a year to sort it out, and I had to go to court in the end, but I got all of my money back, legal costs and interest. And I had no witnesses - your wife is a perfectly valid witness in a court of law.

 

Best of luck - it is going to be frustrating at times, but you'll get through it. They don't deserve a single cent of your money.

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terri- there's no importance to whatever labs they are going to fax you- they are also bogus.

 

Please , for your sake, follow the great advice of Neil, and Davide.

Go directly to your Credit card company to apply for a refund.

Sending any more money to people who've already acted the way they have is throwing good money after bad.

I hope you don't have to go to court- but if you send them any more money, it will likely be more you have to sue for in the end.

This was no accident. Their behavior since is simply reinforcing the need to cut your losses.

 

 

 

I'd also say that no legit dealer can offer a 2ct F/SI1, well cut Princess cut diamond for $13,300- as was suggested above.

Yes, you might find such a price in a list, but in all likelihood, the diamond either has a poor cut, or it won;t be available when you order.

 

Just search bluenile and see what you can find. That is what I did and they are absolutely legit. I found a like diamond to what he purchased. Not an excellent one. His is CE so it's trying to compare apples to apples without worms. :rolleyes: That was their cheapest, but it went up from there depending on what you want.

 

On a personal note, I'd suggest getting a lower color and higher cut and clarity if it were me. G or H then put the extra savings to upgrade the rest.

 

Did you actually see the diamond? The one BN lists for $13,300 has a depth of 81%- this eliminates it being called a "well cut" diamond.

 

 

When a seller is using a list, rather than actual diamonds as their inventory there can be a lot of reasons for such price disparities.

As I've mentioned, the cut can be off- or maybe the list is out of date.

It's possible that the stones in the lower price ranges may not be available.

You may notice that there are stones which have the same color/clarity and weight for well over $17k- I'll bet the ones in that price range are available.

 

my point is that using such a list to determine prices can be a futile execersize.

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Terrie,

 

There are very reputable online diamond vendors that could not only help you but help you get the absolute best diamond option for your budget at prices better than the supposded "diamond district" nonsense.. It doesn't require flying to NY, or Chicago, or Israel, or Antwerp, or South Africa for that matter.

 

On another note, a CE diamond of the grading you notated should have costed $7k, not $10k. And that's assuming the diamond is close enough to "F SI1 CE". Ding this grade another notch or two and now we are talking $6k range.

 

There is nothing wrong with a CE diamond AS LONG AS DISCLOSED. And taught, understood, not just "sliding" a CE mentioning by without explanation thoroughly...BIG FTC violation.

 

Neil is right on the money with his recommendations.

 

Marty

CEO/Pres

Diamond Brokerage Service, Inc

www.dbsdiamonds.com

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