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Loose Diamond


White_GTS
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Hi,

 

I'm a noobi and I've been doing a lot of research to find the perfect loose diamond. I'm so glad I found this website as I read a lot about diamonds on this forum and I see that there are many diamond guro's on here as well which is great. Can anyone please tell me if diamond specs will fit well in a 6 prong setting?

 

Do I have to pay attention to the diamonds measurements and depth and table % etc?

 

If so what do I need to lookout for to ensure it will sit well in a 6 prong setting with maximum shine.

 

Also what fair value should I be paying for this ring?

 

Thanks for all the help I can get.

post-115608-1212000090_thumb.jpg

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I'd advise against buying a diamond of such a high grade without a GIA ( or AGSL) lab report.

The report you've posted does not compare with GIA.

Has the seller mentioned this to you?

 

In terms of setting- just about any round diamond can be set into a 6 prong setting.

 

 

Thanks for replying "diamondsbylauren",

 

This diamond has been graded by EGL. I guess after reading the FAQ section EGL is not as good as GIA and basically all grades would be bumped one grade lower. How can GIA or even AGSL grade something and EGL grade the same diamond differant? If EGL grading is worthless then they should really stop grading in my opinion.

 

If you look at my specs such as measurement and depth and all do you see anything wrong with them that will casue poor reflections when mounted on a 6 prong diamond?

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If EGL grading is worthless then they should really stop grading in my opinion.

 

It's a free country, EGL can grade however they like, and they will continue to do so as long as people continue to pay them to do it. Frankly, I expect this problem to get worse before it gets better. The key is that you don't have to care. Dealers hire them to write reports because shopper continue to buy diamonds based on the merits of the report rather than the merits of the diamonds but this doesn't mean that YOU have to fall into this trap. Simply ignore ALL stones that are being presented with grading reports that you aren't convinced are reliable. Don't discount them, don't try to convert them into GIA grading into AGSL grading. If you don't believe them, don't trust them. Simply move onto the next stone and possibly onto the next dealer, that's all.

 

Neil

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I really do like the diamond. Before I found this site I was set in stone to buy that diamond but I started to have second thoughts since my stone was graded by EGL and that people in this forum was saying it is not as good as GIA.

 

I want to buy her a D color diamond with no lower then VS2 clarity. I guess it is best for me to buy it first and get it appraised again at GEMSCAN since I am from Toronto and if it is lower then a D or a VS2 then i'll return it.

 

What bothers me is that the price is so cheap. I'm getting quoted $5700CAD for this diamomd. Is this way to cheap for that grade?

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Don't discount them, don't try to convert them into GIA grading into AGSL grading. If you don't believe them, don't trust them. Simply move onto the next stone and possibly onto the next dealer, that's all.

 

 

This is great advice, which I've also given.

But if you want to ignore it, then go ahead and buy the diamond.

 

Between Neil and I you've got, like over 50 years combined diamond experince, but hey, why not thake a shot? Maybe we don't know anything!

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The problem starts exactly with the price. If they could get more for it, surely they would, right? If they could get a D grade from GIA and thereby raise the price, surely they would do exactly this, right? You aren’t the lab client, some dealer was, and you can bet that they are well aware of the issues that get discussed here. Rather than send it to GIA for grading, they PAID EGL for this. Why? Do a quickie search on the database for 1.00-1.02/VS2/D. There are over a hundred offers with prices ranging from just over $4k to just over $9k. What’s the difference? It’ll benefit you to look into that but I want to point out an interesting detail in the neighborhood of $6500. Nearly every stone above that has been graded by GIA and nearly every stone below that was graded by EGL. If a dealer who has one of those stones in the $5500 range could send it to GIA and for $150 raise the price by $1000 or more to reflect the new ‘improved’ pedigree, why in the world wouldn’t they do this?

 

Neil

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Great points Neil.

White_GTS- I apologize for the sarcasm in my response.

It's a mark of just how good the sellers pushing this junk are- or, conversely- how much people want to believe that they can "beat the game".

 

more likely, it's a combination of both.

Folks have the impression ( it seems sometimes) that they think that a diamond bought for $10,000 nets $9500 profit for the dealer.

Plus, everyone like a bargain- so I think many people are willing to listen to the BS.

 

It's likely that the diamond you are looking at is pretty.

 

Is it what's represented?

 

No- the chances of that are next to nil.

 

For me, as a dealer- the mere fact that someone is trying to get you to believe they are selling you a stone comparable to a properly graded, well cut D/VS2 is an affront to my profession.

Honesty is the MOST important asset any businessperson can offer.

Lacking that, nothing else matters.

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Hi White The stone you posted the report on is "off make. " A 1.00ct round that measures like a .85ct. This stone has been pushed to meet the higher scaled weight of a carat, but will not have the diameter or look of a well made one carat.

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Good point Bradley.

One thing the non GIA reports get right is measurements.

The diamond you are considering, at 64.9% is clearly too deep.

You can tell by the measurements.

A really well cut 1.00 will generally measure between 6.4-6.6mm.

The one you're looking at is 6.23mm at it's widest point

Edited by diamondsbylauren
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Do a quickie search on the database for 1.00-1.02/VS2/D. There are over a hundred offers with prices ranging from just over $4k to just over $9k. What’s the difference? It’ll benefit you to look into that but I want to point out an interesting detail in the neighborhood of $6500.

 

The dealer has informed me that he will show me other diamonds with simular grade that are graded by GSI or AGSL to my like. He stated in his email to me that he has all kinds of diamonds that are graded from EGL, HRD, GEMSCAN, GSI and EGL as well. I'll give him some credit for now and has sent him an email to forward me prices on diamonds that are certified with GSI. I guess the only reason why he offered to show me two diamonds that were graded by EGL was because I said to show me the best bang for the price.

 

I will do a search to read up on "1.00-1.02/VS2/D".

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White_GTS- I apologize for the sarcasm in my response.

 

 

For me, as a dealer- the mere fact that someone is trying to get you to believe they are selling you a stone comparable to a properly graded, well cut D/VS2 is an affront to my profession.

Honesty is the MOST important asset any businessperson can offer.

Lacking that, nothing else matters.

 

No need to apolize... :)

 

Can you tell me which actual chains will give non GIA certifications if you don't mind me asking?

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Hi White The stone you posted the report on is "off make. " A 1.00ct round that measures like a .85ct. This stone has been pushed to meet the higher scaled weight of a carat, but will not have the diameter or look of a well made one carat.

 

 

 

Bradley what you said also made me think last night when I was doing more research. The measurement seems to small for 1 carat indeed.

Edited by White_GTS
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One thing the non GIA reports get right is measurements.

The diamond you are considering, at 64.9% is clearly too deep.

You can tell by the measurements.

A really well cut 1.00 will generally measure between 6.4-6.6mm.

The one you're looking at is 6.23mm at it's widest point

 

What range of the depth% should I be looking for? I'm looking for the best bang for the buck diamond. I dont want it to be out of range or off measurements either. For the stores like Tiffany and other jewelery chains would they ever sell diamonds that are as deep as mine or with similar measurements that I got on the EGL report?

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The research I was recommending is looking into why 2 diamonds with similar weight/shape/clarity/color can be priced so differently. The database research here was just an example of a place to get some interesting data. There’s quite a bit of good info in the forum as well but you sometimes have to read through quite a bit of nonsense to get there. Then again, it’s free. Many of the dealers also have excellent tutorials but here too you have to be careful to keep your BS filter tuned. Not everything you read on the internet is correct.

 

The ‘bang’ from diamonds generally comes from the cutting, not the clarity and color. One of the benefits of going with GIA grading for round brilliant cuts is that they assign a ‘cut grade’ that is relatively useful, especially if you’re choosing the stone blind. Presumably the dealer came up with this offer based on some specs you provided them. How did you decide on the 1.01/H/VS2 specs?

 

1.00ct+/VS2/H/excellent/GIA is going to cost you something like $6-$7000 at a no-frills sort of dealer plus the GST. A little more if your dealer offers things like a showroom, trade in programs, in-house designers, financing and a lot of handholding. Part of the shopping process is to decide how much you want and how much you are willing to pay for this sort of thing. If this is too rich, You need to decide where to compromise and if you're willing to go a little higher you need to decide where to best spend your money. This is another area where the databases here can be useful. Even if you have no intention of buying from these folks, it’s easy to enter a search, adjust a single item and redo the search and quickly see how these attributes relate to one another and to the asking price. Try tweaking both the color and clarity a bit to see what it does to the prices. Stick with GIA and AGSL only and ignore all others. Stick with GIA-excellent or AGS-ideal cutting.

 

Neil

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Thanks for all the tips Neil. I really appreciated. I do see the differance in price once I change specs around

 

~~~~~~~~~

 

I just got an email back from my dealer. This is what he wrote

Below are some GIA certified diamonds that are available. Please select the ones that you would like to see the certificates of

1.01 E, SI2 PRICE $5,000.001.04 E VS1 PRICE $6,500.001.00 E VS2 PRICE $5,500.001.00 G VS2 PRICE $5,150.001.02 F VS2 PRICE $6,000.001.00 E VS2 PRICE $6,400.001.01 E VS1 PRICE $6,800.00

 

Any ideas which ones I should look at or should I just ask to see all of them? :)

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I guess after reading the FAQ section EGL is not as good as GIA and basically all grades would be bumped one grade lower.

 

Not always. Sometimes they grade correctly.... sometimes they're off by several grades. THere is no rule EGL Grade = GIA Grade -1. It depends also which EGL lab we're talking about, there are 10 of them and some are better then others. Generally speaking, most EGL-USA labs are stricter then the rest but you should always be skeptical for any 1+ct quality stones.

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White_GTS- what might have happened if you had not stumbled across this web site?

Likely, the current conversation you are having with this dealer would never have taken place. You would have bought a stone that was not well cut, and most likey not accurately graded. He would have been happy, for sure.

My point is: why stick with a dealer that already has shown themself to be less than forthcoming?

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Hi,

 

I'm a noobi and I've been doing a lot of research to find the perfect loose diamond. I'm so glad I found this website as I read a lot about diamonds on this forum and I see that there are many diamond guro's on here as well which is great. Can anyone please tell me if diamond specs will fit well in a 6 prong setting?

 

Do I have to pay attention to the diamonds measurements and depth and table % etc?

 

If so what do I need to lookout for to ensure it will sit well in a 6 prong setting with maximum shine.

 

Also what fair value should I be paying for this ring?

 

Thanks for all the help I can get.

 

That is a very high quality diamond you have! D Colorless...

 

I think Tiffany six prong setting will be nice.

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That is a very high quality diamond you have! D Colorless...

 

I think Tiffany six prong setting will be nice.

 

This is a joke right?

Or are you the dealer trying to sell this off make diamond?

 

Have you read this thread?

 

 

If I never read up on diamonds and just saw the specs that I have from my EGL report I would think that this DIAMOND is the best I can ever find. The only downfall for this diamond is it's CUT and where it is graded from.

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My point is: why stick with a dealer that already has shown themself to be less than forthcoming?

 

If i have not stumbled to this site you are correct I may have possibly bought the diamond from him. But before I buy anything such as a car or any high ticket price item I always do my research before I seal any deal. Doing research and gathering more info is why I have started this thread to build my knowlegde and I thank you all for helping me.

 

I do think he is an honest person but at first my first message to him was what can I get for no more then $6500CAD. I am giving him a chance to show me what he has and if I don't like I can always move on but I am giving him a chance because he is located in my city and will not have to pay for duty which could be huge savings.

 

His response was the diamond with the EGL report may suit your needs. After I questioned him about diamonds with GIA reports he was more then willing to show me diamonds with those reports only. I have finally told him that I am more focused on the Cut of the diamond as Neil mentioned to stick with the ideal cutting from GIA.

 

Nelson

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Why the obsession with such high color and clarity standards? Of all things, color has the biggest impact on price and has the smallest impact on fire/brilliance. A beautiful diamond is one that scintillates so brilliantly that it draws the eye in. Diamonds that do this well do so because they possess ideal proportions. I would focus on getting a well-proportioned stone and make color grade a tertiary consideration.

 

Most jewelers I've been to will make you think that color and clarity are the primary basis of comparison from one diamond to the next. This couldn't be further from the truth. A excellently-cut J colored diamond can have all the fire and brilliance in the world and a poorly-cut D colored diamond can be a dud.

 

AGS and GIA give you the most quantitative data to base your decision on. If you really want to get technical, I'd take the time to learn about the parameters of a diamond. When I did my homework, I learned that things like girdle thickness, number of facets, and pavilion angle can all be used to make a .8 ct diamond into a 1 ct diamond.

 

This stuff isn't hard but it takes a time investment to learn. Don't let someone with all the wrong incentives tell you what is important.

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Why the obsession with such high color and clarity standards? Of all things, color has the biggest impact on price and has the smallest impact on fire/brilliance. A beautiful diamond is one that scintillates so brilliantly that it draws the eye in. Diamonds that do this well do so because they possess ideal proportions. I would focus on getting a well-proportioned stone and make color grade a tertiary consideration.

 

 

My standard engagement diamond for my fiance will be no less then a F and no less then a VS2. You are correct about how important the cut is which is why I will also make sure it is an IDEAL/Excellent Cut to ensure it is well portioned. If I have to spend a bit more I will do that.

Edited by White_GTS
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_color

 

Scroll down to the list of diamond color grades at this wiki. Notice a couple of things: First, AGS and GIA are actually using an electronic colormeter to grade their stones rather than having some guy (who may or may not be impartial) compare the stone to a set of masterstones to give it a grade. Second, color grades vary wildly from one certifier to the next. Prior to 2005, an AGS "D" would often rate an "E" by their current standards. Finally, look at the variation in hues under the current AGS system. Under normal light conditions, surrounded by six prongs with the table facing up, I would be astonished if you could tell the difference between an F and a H color stone 60 out of 100 tries.

 

The only rational reason to demand such high color standards is (a) your fiance feels that its very important she impresses when they ask her "what color grade is that stone" (perhaps at the expense of scintillation) or (:) you are interested in the salvage value of the stone later on. When I went through the same process as you about a month ago, I decided that the aesthetic appeal of the stone under normal light conditions was far more important to me than the salvage value, since I have no intention of ever selling the stone (knock on wood!). I also consider myself lucky that my girlfriend hasn't been corrupted by the highly effective color/clarity based marketing strategy of the industry. Eventually I settled on a stone that was of fantastic quality in every way except color. I'm overjoyed at the result. The light performance exceeds anything I was able to find for even 20% more at a retail jeweler.

 

I wouldn't be so arrogant as to suggest that what works for me is the best or the only think that will work for someone else. I would, however, encourage you to have an open mind. If money is no issue then the decision is simply a matter of holding out for a D clarity, flawless stone with ideal proportions. If there is a limit to what you are willing or able to pay (as I gather there is based on the imperfections you allowed for in the diamond that started this thread), then you may find that high color standards give you little bang for your buck compared to other concerns.

 

I was in the market for a princess shape fancy cut diamond, so the ideal shape isn't apples to apples with a round cut, but this is what I ended up with:

 

AGS-triple-0 ideal 1.03 ct

VS1 clarity

I color

Ideal Symmetry/Ideal Polish

64% table (62-68% is a good light performance range)

72% depth (64-75% is a good light performance range)

Girdle thickness M to Sl. Thick

12.5% cutlet

 

I paid $4500. I could have purchased essentially the same stone for $3900 in a J color. I hope that gives you some feel how color will effect your bottom line. Light performance will be impacted less by color than any other consideration.

 

A stone of the exact same parameters in a D, E, or an F would run me $10k, $8k, and $6.8k respectively from a competitively priced online jeweler. The uncompromisingly perfect stone for $5k simply isn't out there. Something isn't going to be perfect unless you've got no budget, then you're solid.

Edited by mmath
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