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Is This A Good Diamond/price?


uchinanchu
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Hello,

 

I found a diamond being sold by a man whose engagement was called off. Since I can't see it in person, I was forwarded the GIA report (F, 1.14cts, VS1,EX,EX,EX no florescence, no cutlet, laser inscribed with GIA report number and canadian diamond identification number). I tried to paste the plot from the GIA report in my post but it won't paste for some reason.

 

The measurements are 6.72-6.76 x4.10mm. The crown (top middle flat part of the diamond) is 59%, I don't know the terms for all the other measurements, but directly under the girdle is written 80% and above the girldle is marked 50%. The number that looks like the depth is 60.8%. Directly above the depth is 14% and below it is 43%. I really wish I could just paste the plot :rolleyes: . It is set in a platinum 4 prong tiffany like setting.

 

Does this sound like a beautiful diamond that will dance in the light and have tons of fire and scintillation? What is a fair price for this stone (from a private seller-second hand)? BTW it is not being sold on ebay and the middle man will have it appraised and certified to be authentic by their in house GIA appraiser before shipping it to me.

 

I really wanted to have a GCAL report with any diamond I purchase over 5K when buying without seeing it. Does anyone out there know how much and where I can tell the seller to send it to get that report and the approx. wait time?

 

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

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So far it looks like pretty good.

 

Middle man? What middle man? Didn’t you say this is a private party sale? Is this middle man who is doing the appraisal (or who is hiring someone else to do it) some sort of dealer or is this another private party working for some sort of a referral fee? Be nervous about this ‘appraisal’. until you work out exactly what their relationship to the MM is. There's a definite conflict of interest here. You are far more secure if YOU hire your own expert rather than having it done by the seller or his/her agent.

 

I’m pretty sure GCAL will accept work directly from anyone. The seller, the middle man, or you can all submit a stone for an inspection. It takes a few weeks. They give discounts to jewelers and appraisers so it may do you best to have the middle man submit it. Details at www.gemfacts.com. Just out of curiosity, what on the GCAL report is interesting you?

 

You can look up comparable stones with the link at the top titled ‘find online jeweler’ and compare prices. I wouldn’t suggest paying a private party more than the dealers here are charging and depending on the situation and your negotiating skills, sometimes resellers get as little as half to 2/3 of what a comparable stone here would cost here. That doesn’t completely nail down a price but it gives you a pretty good range. The ability to beat them up on price is a large part of the reason people like to buy from private parties but not everyone is equally skilled at this. The seller has apparently hired professional assistance (the middle man) and you are presumably working on your own so you have something of a disadvantage.

Edited by denverappraiser
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It's hard to tell by just a few outside measurements if the stone will dance in the light or not. Each diamond is individually cut. They have 57 facets so a couple of average figures won't really tell you how the light will come from the stone. There are some GIA EX EX Ex's that are better than others. I've personally seen some that are duds as far as light performance occasionally. The only way to measure the light performance are these couple of technologies.

 

www.isee2.com

www.gemex.com

 

As far as telling you something sight unseen with the initial measurements, without light performance on the diamond it is hard to tell you just how bright the stone will be in white light, colored light, and scintillation.

 

Are you sure on the crown height being 50%. That sounds quite high and could possibly be a typo?

I would say a fair price would be about $11290 range for the platinum mounting and diamond.

 

Is your fiancee' o.k. with you buying her a used diamond. Some are superstitous that the ring didn't work out the first time, might hex the relationship the second time.

Edited by jan
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$11290? I'd say that if you are buying from a private individual- which is not exactly clear from your post- that you would need to pay a lot less than $10,000 to make it worth the risk of buying from someone with no services, such as a retail seller might offer you.

 

 

There is no such a thing as an "in house GIA appraiser"

It might be possible that a person working for a store, or company has taken GIA courses- but if they used the terminolgy the way you have, it would clearly be deceptive.

Current GIA employees work only for GIA.

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So far it looks like pretty good.

 

Middle man? What middle man? Didn’t you say this is a private party sale? Is this middle man who is doing the appraisal (or who is hiring someone else to do it) some sort of dealer or is this another private party working for some sort of a referral fee? Be nervous about this ‘appraisal’. until you work out exactly what their relationship to the MM is. There's a definite conflict of interest here. You are far more secure if YOU hire your own expert rather than having it done by the seller or his/her agent.

 

I’m pretty sure GCAL will accept work directly from anyone. The seller, the middle man, or you can all submit a stone for an inspection. It takes a few weeks. They give discounts to jewelers and appraisers so it may do you best to have the middle man submit it. Details at www.gemfacts.com. Just out of curiosity, what on the GCAL report is interesting you?

 

You can look up comparable stones with the link at the top titled ‘find online jeweler’ and compare prices. I wouldn’t suggest paying a private party more than the dealers here are charging and depending on the situation and your negotiating skills, sometimes resellers get as little as half to 2/3 of what a comparable stone here would cost here. That doesn’t completely nail down a price but it gives you a pretty good range. The ability to beat them up on price is a large part of the reason people like to buy from private parties but not everyone is equally skilled at this. The seller has apparently hired professional assistance (the middle man) and you are presumably working on your own so you have something of a disadvantage.

 

Hello,

 

Thank you all for such taking the time to help me out. The MM is the I do and now I don't website. I saw it on CNN once and decided to look it up. It seems safe... have you guys heard anything negative about them? After the sale is complete, the seller sends the ring to IDNID and they have their in-house GIA appraiser verify then pay for the ring (I send payment via paypal).

 

I will have to take some time to go over all the info everyone has been nice enough to give me. I am at work now, but will take a close look at your advice later today or tomorrow and get back to you.

 

Thank you all I wish I had known about this website when we were picking our first diamond.

 

:rolleyes:

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They seem to be sincere enough people and they look like a legitimate enough store but make no mistake, you are not buying from a private party, you are buying from IDNID and their ‘appraiser’ is no independent party protecting your interests. He/she is an agent for the seller. It’s a pure consignment deal where the seller/appraiser collects a commission on a successful sale. There’s a bit of deception that I would find disturbing from calling their closer an appraiser and describing themselves as some sort of advertising venue rather than the dealer that they are but there’s nothing wrong with the general gestalt of the deal. Dealers do consignment deals all the time and many of them can be very competitive about it. Dealers add value and they deserve to be paid for it. So what value is being added? Why buy from them instead of their numerous competitors? Presumably they have good stuff for attractive prices and their value comes in from their advertising skills and their buyer protection system.

 

Their advertising through CNN and such is remarkable but, I must say, I’m decidedly unimpressed with the ‘protection’ they offer. Here’s an excerpt from their terms and conditions describing what they are guaranteeing for buyers.

 

“Nor are there any warranties, express or implied issued to any purchasing that the merchandise is accurately or adequately described, except where we have been provided with an original statement from a nationally recognized gemological service and as to that document, we can only represent that the merchandise is described in a manner consistent with such document.â€

 

In other words, they will match the stone to the GIA report (or apparently any other lab document that they consider to be nationally recognized) and guarantee that it’s the same stone as the one presented in their advertising. They offer no refunds or returns for any reason. It’s worth pointing out that EVERY dealer in the country guarantees this. They have to under the Uniform Commercial Code of the US. If they sell you a stone and deliver one that's not the same one that they advertised, you are entitled to a refund under US law.

 

Is there anything else going for them? Not that I can tell but check the terms and conditions and let me know if you spot something. They won’t even tell you the real price because it’s hidden as a ‘reserve’. The story is sort of entertaining I suppose and some might like the whole game element of it. In the end, it’s a no refunds, no returns, cash deal with an attractive price (maybe). OK, so the key question becomes ‘how attractive?’ For that you need to shop the product against their competition. If you haven’t already done it, search the database here, do a bit of Google searching, check the big Internet houses and hit the local stores for competitive bids. Shop for the parts of the specs that are important to you. For example, if the Canada thing is important you'll find that the stores selling 'new' items charge a premium for it. If you don't care and wouldn't be buying that in your alternative it makes sense to compare with goods from other locations but if that's one of your big issues you should be comparing with other Canadian stones. This homework will give you a pretty good idea what you would do as an alternative so now what? You need to decide how much of a discount that business of buying blind with no recourse needs to make it worthwhile to you. 10%? 25%? 50% 0? That’s up to you. Some people are more disturbed by that sort of thing than others. Some stores offer things like ‘free’ repairs, warranties, trade in programs and other perks to sweeten the deal and you get to decide if you’re interested in what they have to offer. The diamond you chose is actually pretty easy to shop. There are quite a few similar stones out there being offered just with different add-ons.

 

Neil

Edited by denverappraiser
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They seem to be sincere enough people and they look like a legitimate enough store but make no mistake, you are not buying from a private party, you are buying from IDNID and their ‘appraiser’ is no independent party protecting your interests. He/she is an agent for the seller. It’s a pure consignment deal where the seller/appraiser collects a commission on a successful sale. There’s a bit of deception that I would find disturbing from calling their closer an appraiser and describing themselves as some sort of advertising venue rather than the dealer that they are but there’s nothing wrong with the general gestalt of the deal. Dealers do consignment deals all the time and many of them can be very competitive about it. Dealers add value and they deserve to be paid for it. So what value is being added? Why buy from them instead of their numerous competitors? Presumably they have good stuff for attractive prices and their value comes in from their advertising skills and their buyer protection system.

 

Their advertising through CNN and such is remarkable but, I must say, I’m decidedly unimpressed with the ‘protection’ they offer. Here’s an excerpt from their terms and conditions describing what they are guaranteeing for buyers.

 

“Nor are there any warranties, express or implied issued to any purchasing that the merchandise is accurately or adequately described, except where we have been provided with an original statement from a nationally recognized gemological service and as to that document, we can only represent that the merchandise is described in a manner consistent with such document.â€

 

In other words, they will match the stone to the GIA report (or apparently any other lab document that they consider to be nationally recognized) and guarantee that it’s the same stone as the one presented in their advertising. They offer no refunds or returns for any reason. It’s worth pointing out that EVERY dealer in the country guarantees this. They have to under the Uniform Commercial Code of the US. If they sell you a stone and deliver one that's not the same one that they advertised, you are entitled to a refund under US law.

 

Is there anything else going for them? Not that I can tell but check the terms and conditions and let me know if you spot something. They won’t even tell you the real price because it’s hidden as a ‘reserve’. The story is sort of entertaining I suppose and some might like the whole game element of it. In the end, it’s a no refunds, no returns, cash deal with an attractive price (maybe). OK, so the key question becomes ‘how attractive?’ For that you need to shop the product against their competition. If you haven’t already done it, search the database here, do a bit of Google searching, check the big Internet houses and hit the local stores for competitive bids. Shop for the parts of the specs that are important to you. For example, if the Canada thing is important you'll find that the stores selling 'new' items charge a premium for it. If you don't care and wouldn't be buying that in your alternative it makes sense to compare with goods from other locations but if that's one of your big issues you should be comparing with other Canadian stones. This homework will give you a pretty good idea what you would do as an alternative so now what? You need to decide how much of a discount that business of buying blind with no recourse needs to make it worthwhile to you. 10%? 25%? 50% 0? That’s up to you. Some people are more disturbed by that sort of thing than others. Some stores offer things like ‘free’ repairs, warranties, trade in programs and other perks to sweeten the deal and you get to decide if you’re interested in what they have to offer. The diamond you chose is actually pretty easy to shop. There are quite a few similar stones out there being offered just with different add-ons.

 

Neil

 

Hello Neil :rolleyes:

 

Thank you so very much for your detailed and very informative reply. I truly was not expecting such an involved post and such sound advice. You gave me a lot to think about and will weigh my decision carefully. If I decide to purchase it, I will be sure to let you know how the transaction turned out and send pictures.

 

The stone comes with a report and I would be happy enough just to receive the same stone as on the report. I guess I just need them (IDNID) to verify that it isn't a CZ that the seller paid to have engraved with the inscription from the diamonds GIA report.

 

Since I have a real live expert here I thought I would ask you about these diamond detecting devices I saw once at a department store (would never dream of buying a stone from a department store) but the device they used caught my eye. It had a prong that they touched to each diamond my sister was buying (just a cocktail ring) to show that they weren't immitation diamonds. I want to purchase one of these detectors (if you know of a good brand) and a loop that I will easily be able to see my bluenile laser inscription with. I bought a 30x but I still can not make out the numbers, only that there is something on the girdle. I looked on ebay and can't find any that are more powerful. How do they expect people to see their inscription if they don't make loops that magnify it enough. Is there a specialty store somewhere that sells these?

 

I had to have my diamond repaired (prong bent) and was terrified to leave it in the hands of the jeweler in case a switch happened. Luckily they were great and let me go back and watch the entire proccess. I want to have these devices just in case the next time, they don't let me in the repair room, that I can verify that I get my true diamond back.

 

Thank you again Neil. I love that you make yourself available to give advice to me, a diamond lover, but a novice none-the-less.

 

To answer a previous persons question... I am totally fine with a second hand diamond. My girl-friends all ask if I am worried about it being cursed. To which my reply is always, how can something so beautiful be cursed? My husband is wise, he gave me an approx. limit and told me to find a stone that I can't live without. Lucky for him, I am the frugal one in the family :huh:

 

If I can work something out with the owner of the diamond to not go through IDNID if the stone doesnt sell, is there a more legitimite way to conduct the transaction ? Geographically it isn't possible for me to verify the stone in person.

 

Truly, thank you again. I really appreciate your advice and help.

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I’m pretty sure GCAL will accept work directly from anyone. The seller, the middle man, or you can all submit a stone for an inspection. It takes a few weeks. They give discounts to jewelers and appraisers so it may do you best to have the middle man submit it. Details at www.gemfacts.com. Just out of curiosity, what on the GCAL report is interesting you?

 

 

Hi Neil,

 

I forgot to answer your question about the GCAL report. I just felt that I could tell a little more about the diamond, without seeing it. The ones now have the optical symmetry and brilliance plots that I feel can help me determine how well it will sparkle and dance for me.

 

I like that my BN diamond has one and I could see the light loss and the symmetry of the diamond easier (to my untrained eye) than just looking at it under a loop. I picked my current diamond by the reports on BN and was very pleased with what I received. It is a smaller stone, but I still love it, .59cts, F, VVS1, Signature ideal. Believe it or not, it is actually my husband who is pushing me to get a larger stone. I think because he sees how in love I am with my current one. I kept brushing him off when he suggested I upgrade. After 8 years, he is determined to get me a new stone and setting. Now that I am looking again, I feel like a kid in a candy store. They really are a girls best friend :rolleyes: ...

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If I can work something out with the owner of the diamond to not go through IDNID if the stone doesnt sell, is there a more legitimite way to conduct the transaction ? Geographically it isn't possible for me to verify the stone in person.

 

Truly, thank you again. I really appreciate your advice and help.

 

IDNID is charging them 10% (I think) to broker the stone for them. This strikes me as relatively reasonable fee if you’re otherwise happy with their service. It’s a violation of the seller agreement for the seller to make a side deal with you. That, of course, is IDNID’s problem not yours, but if the seller is eager to cheat them I would expect them to be equally eager to cheat you if it has the opportunity to make a few bucks.

 

So you’re happy with the BN as a seller, you like the GCAL report format and you or your husband wants a bigger stone. Why not just buy one from Blue Nile? Why are you even considering this stone? I assume it’s the price so now we’ve boiled it down to the real question. How much are you willing to pay for the BN/GCAL service that you like?

 

Here’s a 1.14/F/VS1/GIA+GCAL that they’re asking $11,561.

 

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-ca...amp;filter_id=0

 

If the price were the same it seems clear that you would be happier with that so how about if the price were cheaper? How much cheaper? The answer to that is the answer to your question for what you should offer. My guess is that it’ll be below their reserve but you never know. I'm with David here, I would want to be under $10k if it were my money.

 

You used the word 'upgrade'. This implies a resale or trade-in of the one you've got. I don't know if BN does this or not but somehow I recall they have some sort of offer on their 'signature' series of stone. It may be worth a check and this might be one more bump towards buying from them rather than their competitors. As with the above, how much that feature is worth depends on the details of the offer and what you see as your alternatives but I'm sure they would be tickled to discuss it with you.

 

Neil

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So you’re happy with the BN as a seller, you like the GCAL report format and you or your husband wants a bigger stone. Why not just buy one from Blue Nile? Why are you even considering this stone? I assume it’s the price so now we’ve boiled it down to the real question. How much are you willing to pay for the BN/GCAL service that you like?

 

Here’s a 1.14/F/VS1/GIA+GCAL that they’re asking $11,561.

 

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-ca...amp;filter_id=0

 

If the price were the same it seems clear that you would be happier with that so how about if the price were cheaper? How much cheaper? The answer to that is the answer to your question for what you should offer. My guess is that it’ll be below their reserve but you never know. I'm with David here, I would want to be under $10k if it were my money.

 

You used the word 'upgrade'. This implies a resale or trade-in of the one you've got. I don't know if BN does this or not but somehow I recall they have some sort of offer on their 'signature' series of stone. It may be worth a check and this might be one more bump towards buying from them rather than their competitors. As with the above, how much that feature is worth depends on the details of the offer and what you see as your alternatives but I'm sure they would be tickled to discuss it with you.

 

Neil

 

 

 

I would say a fair price would be about $11290 range for the platinum mounting and diamond.

Not just the stone but with the platinum mounting as well with also a light performance analysis report.

 

Blue Nile as far as I know doesn't have an upgrade policy in the future. We have a 100% upgrade policy in the future with no restrictions.

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My impression from the original post is that the ring is not of interest, just the center diamond to be used as a component in something else. A ‘free’ mounting is of little value if you don’t really want it so I would place a bid based purely on the center diamond and I would bid based purely on what’s included that’s of interest. No GCAL or performance report of any kind is included and since you value this, it’s a reason to lower the bid accordingly. How much lower is up to you. Similarly, the Canadamark is of value to some folks and not to others but since it wasn’t mentioned in your original list of specs, I’m guessing it’s not a big issue here. If it’s not valuable to you, don’t pay extra for it. Someone else may outbid you who values things differently. So be it, let ‘em have it.

 

Jan,

Thanks for the info on BN trade-ins (or lack thereof).

 

Neil

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Hi Neil,

 

By upgrade, I didn't mean trade in. I will reset my current stone into a pendant necklace.

 

I did not mean to have the seller close his auction and sell offline to me. I said "if the ring doesn't sell on IDNID..." and he decides not to relist, if there was a more legitimate way to handle the transaction maybe I could ask to do that. From reading this and other articles, everyone says to have an independant appraiser and to see it in person... So, I was going to try and arrange something like this with him IF his auction ended again without a buyer since I was hesitant with the IDNID terms and conditions.

 

My impression from this gentlman is that he is honest and if it were a violation of his agreement with IDNID then he wouldn't do it. But, if it doesn't sell on that website (relisted twice) then, he should be able to find another way to sell his diamond. Just as this would be legal with anything (jewelry or not) on other auction sites.

 

The starting bid is a few thousand less than BN. But, you are right. I am leaning towards dealing with BN again since the service I received was wonderful and guarantees that I will receive what we pay for. I live overseas and none of the jewelers here (at least the few I have gone to) have GIA or AGSL diamonds. They do have incredible sales but I just don't feel comfortable with anything except a GIA or AGSL diamond. Maybe that is overly cautious, but I just prefer those two agencies.

 

I checked out the isee2 demo and that is pretty cool. I just wish I lived in the US (with the US military overseas) so that we could shop in person.

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The starting bid is irrelevant. It’s the reserve amount that matters. If it’s been listed twice and hasn’t sold you already know that. Buyers obviously aren’t clamoring for it. If you bid the reserve you’ll get it, if you don’t you won’t. Usually the reserve is rather near the Buy-it-now price but since you’re apparently able to contact the seller directly you might want to simply ask him what the 'real' price is.

 

I think you're wise to insist on GIA or AGSL grading. 'Bargains' are often nothing more than windowdressing for bad grading.

 

Neil

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