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Classic Dupe? Gia Certified On My B-day!


Vale
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Hello everyone,

 

 

I know people have asked this type of question a million times before, but I really need your expertise to figure out whether I have become yet another sucker who is overpaying for his diamond. I spent all night reading about the three attributes of cut: proportion, polish, and symmetry. I now have the feeling that I may not have gotten what I wanted: a larger-than-usual, (quasi) two-carat diamond with an incredible shine and “wow!†factor. The clincher was the fact that it was GIA certified on my birthday and that it was 1.96 carats, which I was told is not common and could save me money. Anyway, here are the specs:

 

 

Report Check for

GIA Report Number: 16221180

 

 

 

 

 

Report Type: GIA Diamond Grading Report

 

Date of Issue: August 10, 2007

 

Round Brilliant

 

Measurements: 8.09 - 8.14 x 4.88 mm

 

Carat Weight: 1.96

 

Color Grade: I

 

Clarity Grade: VS2

 

Cut Grade: Excellent

 

Proportions:

 

Depth: 60.1 %

 

Table: 61 %

 

Crown Angle: 32.5°

 

Crown Height: 12.5 %

 

Pavilion Angle: 41.6°

 

Pavilion Depth: 44 %

 

Star length: 55 %

 

Lower Half: 80 %

 

Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted

 

Culet: None

 

Finish:

 

Polish: Excellent

 

Symmetry: Excellent

 

Fluorescence: Faint

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments: Additional clouds are not shown.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thinking that I had the best cut out there per the GIA Report, I did some research and found that the diamond's proportion would categorize it as AGS 2, GIA Class 2 (i.e., not ideal, not excellent, but very good). The seller is a wholesaler, so I do not know whether I was deliberately taken for a ride with concealed crown angle and pavilion depth figures. Anyway, in the end, I will have paid $13,720 for the stone (pay when you can, no interest). The only good news is that I can trade it in to buy something else.

 

 

Any thoughts? At this point, all I want is to feel that I am paying what the gem is worth. I have performed some searches for similar diamonds, but I do not know how much the proportion data can affect the final price.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

 

Edited by Vale
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I think you’re probably right that AGS wouldn’t call this an ideal but others probably would. It depends on your standards. Basically, if you want an AGS-Ideal, buy one and don’t go about trying to second guess the lab. If GIA-excellent is acceptable, don’t worry so much about what AGS might call it. GIA is a terrific lab and ‘excellent’ is their top grade.

 

By the way, AGS changed (improved) the rules in 2005 and you’re probably using the pre-2005 system to decide that it’s an AGS2. The GIA ‘cut class’ system was abandoned in 2006 and had only barely been in use before that. I would ignore it entirely. It has been replaced by the GIA cut grade system (also an improvement) and again, your's got the top grade in this system.

 

A trade in policy good for whatever you want, whenever you want it is a good thing, as is the ‘pay whenever you like’ payment terms. Graded on your birthday is cool.

 

It’s correct that well cut 1.96’s are hard to find and generally less expensive than an otherwise similar 2.00.

 

You can compare prices using the database at the top of the page titled ‘find online jeweler’ to look for comparable stones and see what they are going for here. This is a pretty competitive marketplace. I think you’ll find that your price is in line.

 

So, presumably you’ve seen it, how’s that ‘wow’ factor?

 

Neil

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If I understand this correctly, you got this diamond on credit with no interest. That's highly unusual, and hugely in your favor. It would also seem that the price is well in line considering this arrangement.

 

Generally speaking, it's a rule in the diamond business for the diamond of your weight (that is one that is just under the size barrier) is usually going to be very well cut. The reason for this, is that it's generally possible for the cutter to save a few points here and there and end up with a two carat diamond.

 

Don't let the minutia of spoil this wonderful event for you. If you seen the diamond and you love it, it sounds like a good deal to me

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Thank you both so much for your help. Neil, your knowledge about the GIA and AGS is impressive.

 

The “wow†factor, for what I know about diamonds, is certainly there. It is quite the sparkler, especially on the “diam mount, 1.78 ctw†band that the sales lady showed me and that I may buy someday after doing some SERIOUS research about what goes best with the stone. The day I finish paying for it, I may hire an expert to reasses the diamond and give me some pointers about the band.

 

The price I quoted was pre-tax (total is $14,593), but it seems to be an average wholesale price, based on your input and my searches (pavilion and crown angles aside). I am not quite sure whether I got a “great deal†but it may be that the amount is reasonable when compared to retail and the price of a full two-carat diamond. I also thank you, David, for informing me about the no-interest factor, which I thought was not uncommon among wholesalers.

 

 

A very kind individual who also looked at the GIA data mentioned the following:

 

 

“With a 41.6 mm pavilion angle-- you might get some light leakage and a 32.5 degree crown angle is slightly shallow. Overall, it appears to be a reasonably well cut stone but it is not an ideal cut stone. I am somewhat surprised that GIA gave this stone an Excellent cut grade (GIA's highest cut grade) with the pavilion and crown angle being what they are.â€

 

Any thoughts? This is the part I wish the seller had disclosed to me and that I had to find out the hard way after reading an exhaustive amount of information. Do I second-guess the GIA, at this point?

 

With the price of diamonds on the rise, I very likely will keep the rock. To those of you who are in the business, you probably are aware of just how important symbolism and numbers play on a purchase like this. I may NOT have closed the deal if the GIA had not certified the diamond on the day of my 35th birthday.

Edited by Vale
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A very kind individual who also looked at the GIA data mentioned the following:

 

“With a 41.6 mm pavilion angle-- you might get some light leakage and a 32.5 degree crown angle is slightly shallow. Overall, it appears to be a reasonably well cut stone but it is not an ideal cut stone. I am somewhat surprised that GIA gave this stone an Excellent cut grade (GIA's highest cut grade) with the pavilion and crown angle being what they are.â€

 

GIA is very forthcoming about what proportion sets will and what won’t make a stone eligible for a grade of excellent on their scale. Not everyone agrees with their standards but there’s simply nothing to be surprised about when they apply them. I’m with your selling dealer, this is a GIA-excellent, not a slightly excellent or a reasonably excellent. If they don’t want to use the GIA scale, I understand, but reinterpreting it using scary terms like 'leakage' on a stone that they’ve never even seen is doing you no favors.

 

Here’s a nifty way to play with the GIA’s proportions.

 

www.facetware.gia.edu

 

Neil

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Thank you once again for taking the time to respond, Neil. Your help in a forum like this is a blessing for the good-hearted guys out there who just want to avoid being deceived. I will not forget to post a picture of the ring when it's finally paid off, or sooner, if I head downtown to the store.

Edited by Vale
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Date of Issue: August 10, 2007

 

The seller is a wholesaler, so I do not know whether I was deliberately taken for a ride with concealed crown angle and pavilion depth figures.

 

Since this is a 2007 GIA report that info is directly on the report itself. So probably hard to conceal.

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Date of Issue: August 10, 2007

 

The seller is a wholesaler, so I do not know whether I was deliberately taken for a ride with concealed crown angle and pavilion depth figures.

 

Since this is a 2007 GIA report that info is directly on the report itself. So probably hard to conceal.

 

The GIA report that I received and that is offered by a number of jewelers does not provide this information. The only way to find it is either to ask for it or to go directly to the GIA website and enter the diamond's number and weight to obtain a full report.

 

http://www.bluenile.com/diamonds_details.a...amp;filter_id=0

 

If you click on or paste the link above and perform a diamond search for any round GIA-certified stone, you will see the type of report that I received. As you will notice, unless one can understand the diamond drawing (if that helps, I don't even know), there is nothing explicit regarding crown angle and pavilion depth. Neither did I understand these details when I shopped for my diamond. I just looked at the final grade of excellent and took the GIA's word for the stone's cut. I will leave it at that, as Neil kindly pointed out that such a grade should suffice.

Edited by Vale
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I think the price was fair for the diamond specs and if you like the look and can get an upgrade in the future, you shouldn't worry. However the stone would not grade as ideal cut based on some of the numbers. That is AGS's grading system. If you wanted an ideal cut diamond you should purchase an AGS graded stone.

I think the main thing that is bothering you is that you think you got something "wholesale".

 

If someone is selling to you the end user, they are selling retail no matter what the price is.

 

Wholesale would have been if it was sold to a store as an end user.

 

These guys in the Seybold building have been playing this "wholesale to the Public" game forever and a day.

 

Every town has them, Miami has the Seybold building, Atlanta has the mart, Boston has their building, New York has 47th st. It's all the same out there.

With the internet, it's getting more see through though. It's gotten easier to actually compare stone prices and see who is feeding you the "wholesale" line.

 

 

In my opinion it's a deceptive way to sell. The FTC agrees.

Edited by jan
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Thank you so much for the info, Jan. I don’t mean to drag this further, but now I have become curious about these people’s argument regarding “paying less for it than you would at [enter here name of jeweler such as Mayor’s].†As for places like Tiffany, are people just paying extra for the blue box or not? Just in case, I’ll do a search to see whether this has been answered already.

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Selling things for less than Tiffany’s is no great trick. Few people go to Tif’s because they think it’s a cheap place to buy stuff. People shop there because they have confidence in Tiffany quality control, confidence in Tiffany’s financial stability and ethics and they like how it makes them feel to buy genuine Tiffany merchandise directly from the company. You may not value these things and this ‘wholesaler’ may poo-poo them as foolish but Tiffany’s customers count them as important and as part of what is symbolized by the blue box. By the way, Tiffany is very selective about their stones and my guess is that the craftsmen who are building the ring and setting it really do do a better job than the benchman (or woman) that your ‘wholesaler’ lines up to do the work.

 

Is a hot dog worth more at the ballpark? Darned right it is. But is this evidence that it’s a great bargain if you buy one somewhere else?

 

If you want to shop him on price, try shopping him against the jewelers who advertise here under the ‘find online jeweler’ button at the top of the page or with some of the folks who have taken of their time to answer your questions. You can recognize the jewelers here by the ‘verified jeweler’ label below their name and the links at the bottom of each post that lead to their own websites. These folks are a much higher standard to be held up to than just being cheaper than the mall.

 

Neil

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Thanks for the info. The ball park analogy is one of the best I have heard in a while. Indeed, if I ever upgrade the diamond, I will know where to stand as far as price and my knowledge are concerned. Having used the above search engine and read all this great advice, I am thankful that at least I got what I paid for. In fact, I found most diamonds to be at a price slightly above what I paid, all things being equal and with a lower-grade cut and .05 less carat weight. As I mentioned, the birthday thing did it for me more than the pitch about retail. I don’t know how many diamonds AGS or GIA certifies per day, but if I ever upgrade, I will be asking on what day the diamond was certified. For the band, I may very well go with you guys.

Edited by Vale
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Hi Vale Yes you just scroll over to the "profile to actual proportions" diagram on the GIA lab report and all those numbers are there.

 

Of course, Bradley. Like any first-time diamond buyer is going to figure out crown angle and pavilion depth by looking at that a diagram. The version of the GIA report that is available on line (i.e., the one I first posted) is what an average consumer will realistically be compelled to study and compare. As one who works with numbers for a living, I can attest to the ease of use of the proportions list versus the diagram.

Edited by Vale
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