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Asscher Purchase (pic Attached)


chriskz
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Looking for some advice on purchasing the following Asscher. First time buyer here and would love any feedback. Picture is at 8x magnification

 

Thanks

 

Weight 1.25

Color G

Clarity VVS2

Polish Excellent

Symetry Very Good

Fluorescence None

Measurements 6.03*6.02*4.14

Price $7900

GIA Certified

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Beautiful photo.

 

Buying a fancy shape involves trust in the dealer. You want someone who has the diamonds in-hand and will work with you to balance your desired criteria with the best possible cut and performance (and price of course). The most reliable dealers offer strong exam/return periods and extend long-term guarantees such as a trade-up benefit; indicating they're standing behind this sale in the short and the long term.

 

For extra piece of mind you could include a respected independent appraiser in the transaction. The cost is usually a small percentage of the total investment and will put another expert set of eyes on the stone, give you an unbiased opinion of its pedigree and provide full insurance documentation.

Edited by JohnQuixote
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Jan, wouldn't a royal branded Asscher be far more than that?

 

 

Duh....... Generic square emerald cuts are a dime a dozen..... Royal asschers are not priced like those and are not readily available ..... even to authorized vendors. No comparison on price at all. They are also not cut the same as the cut is patented.

 

 

 

A Bentley and a Hyundai both are made of steel but not made the same either nor do they cost the same.

 

 

This same exact stone however is listed all over the internet for far less.

Edited by jan
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David,

 

I'm with the above. That's a fine photo. What don't you like about it?

 

Neil

 

To me, the photo is very one-dimensional, not enough contrast. If there were others, to bounce it off of, then there would be some continuity to help us judge what the diamond actually looks like.

Even the exact shape is not very distinct to see in this single photo.

 

I guess it emphasizes the fact that a single photo can be passed around to hundreds of vendors- and we know that all of whom are showing the same diamond online, I agree.

Multiple photos, or context photos (such as the diamond shown next to a coin or something), would be much more useful.

Of course none of the ostensible sellers of this diamond will be able to do that, because they don't actually have the diamond.

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Jan, wouldn't a royal branded Asscher be far more than that?

 

 

Duh....... Generic square emerald cuts are a dime a dozen..... Royal asschers are not priced like those and are not readily available ..... even to authorized vendors. No comparison on price at all. They are also not cut the same as the cut is patented.

 

 

 

A Bentley and a Hyundai both are made of steel but not made the same either nor do they cost the same.

 

 

This same exact stone however is listed all over the internet for far less.

 

 

Interesting, Jan, so you feel that 1.25G VVS emerald cuts or simply falling off the trees?

I disagree. Even one carat square emerald are not all that common, but once we go to 1.25 carats, they are pretty difficult to find.

If we assume that this is a nice diamond, there's no way that a 1.25G VVS2 square emerald cut with gia report could be sold for much less than $7,900 by a dealer.

 

Of course, that doesn't mean that any 1.25G VVS is a desirable diamond-or worth $7,900.

 

Jan, you also mentioned that the cut is patented. Isn't that quite meaningless? There's a few reasons I say this. For one thing, has anyone ever been sued for cutting the diamond exactly the same as a royal branded Asscher cut?

 

I believe the answer to that one is no. The reason, is that it would be impossible to enforce such a patent. All the cutter would need to do is change one small facet (which could be invisible), and he could justifiably claim that his Asscher was different than the royal branded Asscher.

The patent would prevent people from advertising diamonds that were not branded diamonds as branded diamonds, but it would not prevent people from cutting diamonds just as beautiful.

In fact, I have seen many nonbranded Asscher cut diamonds that were just as beautiful as the branded stones.

 

Since we were formally dealers of the branded stones, I have a pretty good idea of the price.

Jan, wouldn't you say we be looking at more than $12,000 for a royal branded Asscher with in this size with this color and clarity?

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Jan, wouldn't a royal branded Asscher be far more than that?

 

 

Duh....... Generic square emerald cuts are a dime a dozen..... Royal asschers are not priced like those and are not readily available ..... even to authorized vendors. No comparison on price at all. They are also not cut the same as the cut is patented.

 

 

 

A Bentley and a Hyundai both are made of steel but not made the same either nor do they cost the same.

 

 

This same exact stone however is listed all over the internet for far less.

 

 

Interesting, Jan, so you feel that 1.25G VVS emerald cuts or simply falling off the trees?

I disagree. Even one carat square emerald are not all that common, but once we go to 1.25 carats, they are pretty difficult to find.

If we assume that this is a nice diamond, there's no way that a 1.25G VVS2 square emerald cut with gia report could be sold for much less than $7,900 by a dealer.

 

Of course, that doesn't mean that any 1.25G VVS is a desirable diamond-or worth $7,900.

 

Jan, you also mentioned that the cut is patented. Isn't that quite meaningless? There's a few reasons I say this. For one thing, has anyone ever been sued for cutting the diamond exactly the same as a royal branded Asscher cut?

 

 

 

 

I believe the answer to that one is no. The reason, is that it would be impossible to enforce such a patent. All the cutter would need to do is change one small facet (which could be invisible), and he could justifiably claim that his Asscher was different than the royal branded Asscher.

The patent would prevent people from advertising diamonds that were not branded diamonds as branded diamonds, but it would not prevent people from cutting diamonds just as beautiful.

In fact, I have seen many nonbranded Asscher cut diamonds that were just as beautiful as the branded stones.

 

Since we were formally dealers of the branded stones, I have a pretty good idea of the price.

Jan, wouldn't you say we be looking at more than $12,000 for a royal branded Asscher with in this size with this color and clarity?

 

 

I would like to ask why every time I post you have something to say to me or disagree with something I've said. Are you here to help the consumer or talk to me. ??

Personally I would much rather talk to the consumer on the boards here and answer questions versus talking to my competitor who much of the time has nothing nice to say

The consumer here asked about the price and picture of the stone above. I answered the consumer. You on the other hand insist on striking up a conversation with me versus answering the question of the poster and answer it honestly, not some run around. Just my observations.

 

You have so many things that you say above that aren't correct, I just don't have time to talk to you and correct all your mistakes all the time. Let's keep it just answering the consumers here. O.K?

Edited by jan
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Jan, you are saying that this is a low price for the diamond. And I'm disagreeing. You are saying diamonds like this are very common and I'm disagreeing.

I don't see how this is not pertinent to the consumer in a conversation about diamonds. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just stating the facts as I see them.

 

Rather than attacking me personally, I think it would be nice for you to identify the things you said that I have said here specifically regarding this conversation, the pricing of diamonds, the availability of diamonds that were not correct.

Not to be argumentative, but to clarify these points for the consumers reading this.

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Looks good, reminds me a bit of a stone I have in stock.

 

 

Now that 1.25ct VVS2 G is being listed by at least six other websites, None of them own it. Looks like the price varies on this exact stone $7378 - $8100.

 

As mentioned before you need to weigh in the service behind the sale, trade up policy, etc.

 

 

 

 

post-114043-1200109529_thumb.jpg

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Well Bradley, that's a nice looking picture!

So, you have a 1.25G VVS1, which is way less than the one the guy is looking at?

What are the specs on your stone?

 

 

As far as the lists pricing the diamond from the low $7,000 range, I do not believe that the person advertising it in the low $7,000 range will be able to produce it.

 

 

 

You have so many things that you say above that aren't correct, I just don't have time to talk to you and correct all your mistakes all the time. Let's keep it just answering the consumers here. O.K?

Jan, I'm still waiting for you to back up your statement. Seeing as how you do have the time to make a derogatory statement, please take the time to back it up.

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Well Bradley, that's a nice looking picture!

So, you have a 1.25G VVS1, which is way less than the one the guy is looking at?

What are the specs on your stone?

 

 

As far as the lists pricing the diamond from the low $7,000 range, I do not believe that the person advertising it in the low $7,000 range will be able to produce it.

 

 

 

You have so many things that you say above that aren't correct, I just don't have time to talk to you and correct all your mistakes all the time. Let's keep it just answering the consumers here. O.K?

Jan, I'm still waiting for you to back up your statement. Seeing as how you do have the time to make a derogatory statement, please take the time to back it up.

 

 

I agree that Jan's remarks were condescending and unnecessary.

 

"Duh" and "dime a dozen" are really quite low-brow terms and indicative of an inability to expressive one's self in an inoffensive manner.

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Forum rules:

 

Disputes that are strictly among members of the jewelry industry are not allowed in the open areas of our community. Jewelers intensely compete for business just like in any other industry. However, when intense competition deteriorates to attacking the practices of other industry members, the industry as a whole begins to deteriorate in the eyes of consumers. When that happens, everyone loses. If you feel you have been attacked, you may state that you feel you have been attacked, but it is expressly forbidden to attack back. "An eye for an eye" does not work here. Instead, please report the incident to us. We will take action against repeat offenders at our discretion.

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Forum rules:

 

Disputes that are strictly among members of the jewelry industry are not allowed in the open areas of our community. Jewelers intensely compete for business just like in any other industry. However, when intense competition deteriorates to attacking the practices of other industry members, the industry as a whole begins to deteriorate in the eyes of consumers. When that happens, everyone loses. If you feel you have been attacked, you may state that you feel you have been attacked, but it is expressly forbidden to attack back. "An eye for an eye" does not work here. Instead, please report the incident to us. We will take action against repeat offenders at our discretion.

 

 

I feel many people here in the trade have been attacked by David on this forum, even to the point of harassment for some. There is definitely an obvious pattern that can be traced through his postings on here.

 

 

 

 

 

David quote : " Hi everybody!

Jan, I'm still waiting for you to clarify your comments."

 

"I don't believe personal attacks, derogatory comments, without explanations are fair in any way shape or form. Please back up your words with something." ?

 

David quote: " Jan, I'm still waiting for you to back up your statement. Seeing as how you do have the time to make a derogatory statement, please take the time to back it up."

 

David quote : " Jan, you are saying that this is a low price for the diamond. And I'm disagreeing. You are saying diamonds like this are very common and I'm disagreeing."

 

David quote :

" Great Barry- make a veiled accusation, then make sure it stays ambiguous. "

"I am sorry if you think I'm being sensitive, but you've called me a Nazi on a another board- on the very same thread where Brad accused me- and clients of ours- of participating in shilling.

NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

NOW, since you've made ambiguous statements about shilling, I'm simply asking you to clarify that you were not referring to me, my clients, or the forum we run. "

 

David quote :

" Judah, I don't see that it really matters, at this point, if Jan contacted the buyer first or not- because now it's a public conversation.

The claims Jan and Brad are making are misleading- thankfully it's here on a public forum where we can discuss them. "

 

David quote : "I agree- this is an excellent forum- with balanced advice given by a very nice selection of professionals.

Barry- you mentioned shilling- could you please clarify?

Specifically, I know of no professionals that post here that participate in shilling. "

 

"I agree with Bernard- this forum is not about "bashing" anyone. " ?

 

David quote : " I am simply asking that Barry makes sure he clarifies that he is NOT talking about any of the participants of this conversation. Shilling is a very serious offense for any seller- this is especially true when it comes to the internet. "

"Brad,there's no question I would have great cause to respond out of anger- after what you folks have said about me, and friends or clients of ours. I could easily discuss how trashing a seller, or his stones without cause is clearly relevant, in any discussion forum......

A competing seller advising someone not to buy a VS2 due to the risk of setting? Sounds like a bashing to me. "

 

David quote : " Jan's comment really bothered me because we hear so many "cautionary" remarks with no basis in reality.

Advising that a VS2 feather can be a danger to setting is exactly like telling someone that a K color is a "bad" diamond, just because it's a K.

Many times these false warnings are merely a sales technique."

 

David quote :

"I'm curious Jan, just how much is a Royal Asscher today?"

 

" Jan, wouldn't a royal branded Asscher be far more than that?"

 

"Jan, wouldn't you say we be looking at more than $12,000 for a royal branded Asscher with in this size with this color and clarity?"

 

Jan-Jan-Jan, Geeeeez

 

David quote : " Judah, At this moment, I request that you be super clear.

If it even sounds like you're referring to me, or my company, please know that after being accused of a lot of false and libelous charges- I am HYPER sensative."

"If someone equated you to a Nazi, then you would understand my anger. I truly hope that it never happens to you, or anyone else.

SO- to clarify- I'm asking you to confirm that your statement about "the oldest trick on the book" has NOTHING TO DO WITH ME OR MY PHOTOS OR COMPANY."

 

David quote : " Hu Judah,

Again, I ask you to clarify- are you referring to my photo(s) "

 

 

David quote : " Thank you Judah,

In an atmosphere which included me being called a Nazi, and your dad hoppping on that bandwagon ( since re-canted)- I'm sure you can understand the need for clarity.

"We have always spoken well of your dad, and held your company in high regard.

It's nice to know you have nothing at all negative to say about ColorDiamond.info, or Diamonds by Lauren"

 

David quote: " BTW Judah- I would really appreciate if you would go to this thread to respond and clarify a few comments you made."

 

David quote " Barry, you might disagree with me, but it's tough to question my basis of knowledge. Do you have any justification for condoning DT management in calling me a Nazi? "

Edited by Bradley
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i consider David a car salesman type of person. everything discussed here is spun negatively by David. it almost seems like he wants to be known as the smartest person here. and he stinks of a dealer trying anything to show he knows best so he can make the sale.

david: maybe i am wrong here, but i am just telling you what i feel based on the posts you make. i understand reading something can totally be misinterperated, but for me, i feel you are similar to a car salesman who will say anything to make it appear you are the best deal.

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Hi Chan,

on another thread, you have stated that it is possible after a few weeks shopping for diamonds to be able to grade them yourself.

http://www.diamond.info/forum/index.php?sh...amp;#entry14834

 

Here's one of the things you said:

if i look at enough diamonds with enough information from a a non-seller "seasoned professional" i would pretty much know a lot about diamonds and be able to judge them well enough to know im not getting ripped off.
you then questioned why I would call myself a seasoned professional. In case you did not read the answer here it is:

 

I am David, my company is called Diamonds by Lauren.

I was trained to grade diamonds from the house of Harry Winston, at the time the largest loose diamond company in the world. That was between 1976 to 1979. From 1980 to 1983 I worked as a grader for a company called M. Fabrikant, which had become, at that time the largest loose diamond company in the world.

By 1987. I was a salesman selling loose diamonds to retail jewelry stores for that company.

Subsequently, I left that company to sell for a large cutter, who specialized in fancy colored diamonds.

 

In 1998, I opened up my own company, and continued to sell diamonds wholesale on the road.

The year 2000 I opened our website, and that pretty much brings up to where we are right now.

So, I've been continuously employed in the diamond business, specifically as a grader or a diamond salesman since the year 1976. Hopefully that gives me the qualifications and to your question.

 

It might also give you a little insight as to why it could be seen as slightly insulting when someone feels that a trade which takes years to learn, could be mastered in a few weeks of shopping by a novice.

I assure you, it cannot.

 

It is my experience, that many sellers of EGL certified diamonds are misrepresenting. By stating this openly, I will get some people angry at me. However, I have not let that dissuade me from telling the truth as I see it.

 

If you feel that you can grade a diamond by yourself, then you do not need the help of a seasoned professional.

I am truly sorry that my comments brought us to confrontation-but I still stand behind everything I said.

 

 

This thread is, after all, about Asscher cut diamonds and their prices.

Jan made a statement that the price seemed high.

Jan also made a statement claiming that "generic square emerald cuts are a dime a dozen"

 

I feel that both of these statements are misleading and untrue. Steve, as someone in the trade, what is your opinion on the substance of the discussion here?

 

 

While a friendly atmosphere is great, I do believe that people reading this forum are interested in the actual facts about diamonds. Isn't that what we should be talking about?

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I'm not sure I can give a 100% unbiased opinion :lol:

 

I'm sure Brad looked up this stone just like I did.. I know what it cost from Abe, the guy that actually owns the stone.. So when I go look online and see 7 different people selling it from anywhere from 7% markup up to about 18% markup I can't honestly say that any of those prices is out of line for someone trying to do more than just whore out diamonds as fast as they can like chewing gum..

 

In today's internet world you can easily see that a lot of people are selling things that they don't actually own.. So then you need to decide what sets the prices apart since they are all trying to sell you something that they don't own and just saw on a list.. Customer Service, Trade-Ins, special perks, whatever.. If you are comfortable in thinking that you know enough about diamonds then buy it from the guy with the lowest price.. If someone offers a service to you that you feel is worth more, then by all means, give the guy a little extra for the extra service and support..

 

Personally, my price would be a little closer to the high end of what you see online.. But then I put our service and support at the top of the list when compared to anyone.. I think that we keep fine company with quite a few stores at that level.. But then again, most of our customers don't pick their diamonds, they give us an idea of what they are looking for, what their budget is, and then let us (our store) do what it's been doing for more than 30 years, find the absolute best diamond for their budget.. And we get a fair profit for that service.. (Boy do I sound like a pimp or what??) :P

 

And just to say my part, I rarely see David get as aggressive as other people do.. We've talked on the phone and on several forums and I've never had any problem at all with him, even if we disagree.. But then I have no personal grudge with him either.. I like eBay for the most part :)

 

We now return you to our regularly scheduled bickering over whatever it is people are bickering about..

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Oh yeah, EGL/GIA.. Watching a lot of Barrett-Jackson auctions this weekend and it seems to apply..

 

Say you have a top shelf / or near top shelf car.. If it's truly top shelf you send it to B-J because that is where all the top shelf cars go to get the best pedigree and best price. .If you car (or diamond) is nice, but not quite top shelf, you send it to less educated, less discriminating auctions where you might just be able to slip one through.. There is a reason why an SI1 G GIA sells for more than an SI1 G EGL.. It's just the facts of the way it is..

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While a friendly atmosphere is great, I do believe that people reading this forum are interested in the actual facts about diamonds. Isn't that what we should be talking about?

 

David, just to add my 2c ... I've come to realize when it comes to diamonds, very little is "fact" .... everything is more or less an "opinion" instead. Ideal cut is an opinion. Shape preference is an opinion. Value that comes from service, branding, etc is is an opinion. Grading is an opinion. Beauty is an opinion. I could go on and on. There is very little fact in this industry, everything is subjective with tolerance/error and LOTS of opinion. All we can do really is offer our unbiased opinions and experience and let the customer develop their own opinion, hopefully a well educated and reasearched one. I think everyone here has an opinion and I respect it.

 

For what it's worth...

 

Best,

Yosef

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I agree with a lot of what you said Yosef. Some people like the marquis cut others like a pear shaped. Some people will pay for a little blue box-and generally these people know that they're paying a lot for the blue box. I'll bet that people that shop at Tiffany's get very good value for their money. They're not expecting cheap stuff. We agree completely on this No one is "wrong" in what they like or do not like.

 

Same thing for diamond grading. There's no question that diamond grading is subjective, it involves opinion. GIA does not use machines to grade the diamonds, people grade the diamonds for G.I.A. There is no "scientific" difference between the VVS1 and VVS2. It's all in the graders eye.

 

There are facts, however. Such as, GIA does grade the cut of round brilliant diamonds. The same cannot be said of fancy shaped diamonds by GIA.

The best grade that GIA issues for cut of round brilliant diamonds is "Excellent"

That means, if we see an ad for a radiant cut diamond, which is "certified by GIA to be ideal cut", we know that someone is stating something which is not a fact. My contention, would be that this hypothetical example, is misleading advertising.

 

It is, after all, a business. A company's money back guarantee needs to be a fact, not an opinion. There are all kinds of things that really need to be spelled out factually in the transaction when people buy a diamond.

 

Of course a lot of this it is my opinion. And I suppose this is a great place to discuss it-I would hope this is a great place to discuss it.

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