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Egl Discription Of Si-2


Ricosuave
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I'm gonna try this again:

 

I am desparately looking for someone who can tell me the TRUE definition of an EGL SI-2 diamond. This is the subject of HUGE debate between consumers and dealers since SI-2 rides the border between visible and non-visible (naked eye) inclusions. From what I have researched the EGL's definition of clarity is as follows (taken straight from the EGL's web site):

 

clarity1.gif

 

No where in this description does it say that an SI-2 diamond has any flaws visible to the naked eye. I have had to turn down many SI-2 diamonds for visible flaws that were not disclosed until viewing the diamond. The general response is from the dealer is "EGL SI-2 diamonds regularly have visible inclusions to the naked eye". I tell them that this is NOT the definition of an EGL SI-2 diamond and refuse the item. Is this a sign of a plethera of dishonest dealers or am I mistaken in my assessment of what SI-2 means? HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Ricosuave
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I'm not an expert, but I've been reading a lot of message boards over the last few weeks. I have also noticed that SI1 and SI2 diamonds that at EGL certified can often times NOT be eye clean. From what I've here and on pricescope, it can depend on the EGL Lab that is was graded at. EGL - USA seems the most reputable and the rest a crap shoot, and it ususally 1 to 2 grades lower than reported. I've read that diamonds from EGL Israel are highly unreliable. I was sent an EGL Israel cert, and it's all in English and you really wouldn't know it's from EGL Israel (I couldn't find anything that said Israel).

 

To add on to this post, how can you tell the different EGL certs unless it clearly states (I know that EGL USA is very clear), I couldn't quite tell the EGL Israel cert. I'm probably missing something pretty clear!

 

Thanks!

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It seems that there is no standard among dealers and what their interpretation of SI-2 means.....hell, I've even seen some supposed EGL SI-1 diamonds that have had visible inclusions. I'm getting kind of tired of running everywhere with the same results, flawed diamonds that, in my opinion, should be at least I-1 if not I-2!

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You’re answer is contained within your question. EGL sets their own definitions for the various grades and, as you have observed, they aren’t especially consistent in applying them. As you point out, the absence of 'eye visible inclusions' is NOT one of the standards. EGL-SI2 is not the same thing as GIA-SI2 (that's not one of the standards for the GIA scale either by the way). If you want to know what EGL means by a particular grade, ask EGL. If that doesn’t do you much good, or it doesn’t give you the information you want, don’t rely on an EGL grading opinion. In the case of how a dealer interprets an EGL grade, we’re no longer asking what EGL thinks of the stone, we’re asking what the dealer thinks of it. This is actually progress and you’re right that there is very little consistency here. We're no discussing the credibility of the dealer. Look for a dealer who will describe the stone using a scale that you understand and have them grade it. If you have a concern about the dealer and want a second opinion, hire an independent expert to grade it on your own behalf. If you have an important concern about the dealer, resolve it or find a different dealer.

 

EGL-USA is identified at the top of the report so they're easy to separate. The others are difficult to separate. Sometimes you can get a clue about which EGL International lab issued a particular report from the report number but largely it doesn't make much difference. Ignore them all.

 

Neil

Edited by denverappraiser
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Thanks for the reply Neil, there was a lot of helpful info in your post. I guess the bottom line is that everything I have read and is published by the EGL states what was in my first post: SI-1 and SI-2 diamonds have quote "inclusions and external blemishes easy to locate under 10x magnification". To me, this means that if a dealer is grading a diamond and can see an inclusion or blemish under his own power of sight, they should grade the diamond as an 'I' grade. Am I correct in this assumption?

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"Inclusions and external blemishes easy to locate under 10x magnification" does not mean that they can’t be located at all with different magnification (like 0x). Their definition of I-1 clarity is equally vague with inclusions that are ‘usually obvious’. The boundary between ‘visible’ and ‘obvious’ isn’t defined any more than the boundary between 'obvious' and 'butt ugly'.

 

‘Eye visible’ has a lot to do with the lighting environment, your eyesight and knowing what to look for. Even cutting and size play a big part in it. These are the reasons that GIA doesn’t use this as part of their clarity grading scale. I realize that lots of people would like it if they could tell by the clarity grade if something has imperfections that they will be able to see but wishing does not make it true. This is simply not part of either the standard GIA grading system or with the one EGL uses.

 

Neil

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Just curious, but if you know, they are bogus grades (and they are), why even bother to do research on what or what they are or aren't?

 

I can't repeat this enough-for any consumers who believe they can outsmart dealers using EGL, say goodbye to your money, and prepare to get substandard diamond.

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Just curious, but if you know, they are bogus grades (and they are), why even bother to do research on what or what they are or aren't?

 

I can't repeat this enough-for any consumers who believe they can outsmart dealers using EGL, say goodbye to your money, and prepare to get substandard diamond.

 

 

lauren: why do you say that? if you are knowledgeable with diamonds and understand what EGL means in comparison to GIA, you would know the acceptable price difference.

for instance, lets say i have a decend knowledge of diamonds and konw what to look for when i look at a stone. then, lets say i want to buy a GIA equilvalent of a H, VS2, very good cut.

if i find an EGL stone with a cert that says, E color, VVS2, Ideal cut...and i look at the stone and know how to judge it...i can most likely come to a conclusion that this EGL stone is the stone i was looking for..the GIA type H, VS2, vg cut. and i know what the costs should be.

i do agree with you if you buy stones through the internet since you cant personally inspect the stone.

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Chan, the problem is that sellers that use these non-GIA lab reports to try to prove that their VVS2 is the same as the next guy's VVS2- in many cases, this indicates misrepresentation. And that's really not a safe place to shop for a diamond.

 

Plus-can't repeat it enough- dealer to dealer, any high-quality stone has to have a gia report to be taken seriously.

If it is a K color, I2 diamond, who cares?

 

But if we're talking VVS and H colors in substantial sized diamonds, why take the chance?

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Just out of curiosity, what type of stone are we talking here? 0.65ct EGLUSA SI2/K Round? 2.50ct SI2/D EGL-Israel Princess??? It shouldn't really matter but unfortunately it does. Very few diamond dealers are going to waste their time shopping around for a better grade between GIA/EGL or bending the EGL's arm for a higher grade on a stone worth $1000 or less hoping to squeeze $50 extra out of some poor sucker. But for a $20,000 stone you have to wonder why it has an EGL report vs GIA, especially if it's EGL-Israel on a stone of that size/quality you should be very skeptical.

 

Like Neil said, SI2 itself can vary a lot never mind variance between labs. And SI2 may look clean in round brilliant and horrible in emerald shape, or the opposite could be true as well.

 

Just FYI - GIA/CA graded this stone SI2, EGLUSA/NY graded it SI2, AGS graded it SI2. EGL-ISRAEL graded it SI1.

http://adylon.com/content/articles/2007_case_study.shtml

 

Please don't use that as a basis to judge anything on any grand scale. I just throw it out for observational purposes only. To me, that stone looks "clean" face up from a slight distance like say 18", but if know what to look for and look at it closely, and from the sides the grade-making inclusion is easily eye-visible. If you loop it the inclusions are very obvious.

 

BTW, now that's it's 2008 it seems as though it's time for a new case study ;)

Edited by Adylon
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Straight answer: Every SI diamond is different.

 

An SI1 could have one dark grade-setting inclusion that is eye-visible.

An SI2 could have a dozen tiny transparent inclusions that are not eye-visible.

 

This is regardless of lab.

Edited by JohnQuixote
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all in all, i think for a novice shopping for a diamond the first time, should always seek out the GIA. but for people who know enough about diamonds can look at EGL stones and can make a smart judgement on the stone/price.

 

is this a fair statement? i think it is.

i just dont understand sometimes when people make the arguement EGL stones are bad. they are not bad...a diamond is a diamond. for newbies, they shouldnt trust the EGL cert unless they know how to judge diamonds..thats all.

 

i hope everyones 2008 is off to a good start. i proposed in last month and my lady loved the ring i got her! thats the good news. the better news is that i think i got a ring...a nice ring for my budget!

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I believe you'll find that the argument is that EGL graded stones are often misrepresented, not that they're bad. It's not the lab that makes a beautiful stone beautiful but shoppers are often basing their decision on the report instead of on the stone. For people who are prepared to do their own grading, or who have expert assistance to do it on their behalf it's far less of a minefield but for people who are relying on the lab to provide them with useful information for shopping the reliability of the lab becomes a terribly important issue.

 

Neil

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I believe you'll find that the argument is that EGL graded stones are often misrepresented, not that they're bad. It's not the lab that makes a beautiful stone beautiful but shoppers are often basing their decision on the report instead of on the stone. For people who are prepared to do their own grading, or who have expert assistance to do it on their behalf it's far less of a minefield but for people who are relying on the lab to provide them with useful information for shopping the reliability of the lab becomes a terribly important issue.

 

Neil

 

neil: couldnt have said it better. i have no problem buying an EGL stone if i know how to judge the stone and pay a fair price. i do understand there are dealers out there who try and make it seem like the EGL grade is accurate and tries to manipulate the buyer into thinking its GIA equivalent. but i hate to tell newbies buying a stone to totally disregard an EGL stone. they just need to understand the possible discrepancies against GIA. doesnt necessairly mean the EGL stone is bad. Heck for most people an EGL graded round stone graded D, VVS2, excellent cut will be a great looking stone. but they need to know what to pay for that EGL stone. they shouldnt pay the same price as a GIA cert with the same specs in most instances. but at the same time, just cause this great looking stone is EGL, doesnt mean they should throw it back at the dealer too.

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Funny thing, Chan, I know quite a few people that are professionals in this business-none of them buys into your argument that it's a smart move to consider EGL reports just because they are capable of grading the diamond themselves.

As I said, countless times, serious dealers do not consider EGL reports, when they price their diamonds..

As Neil (and I) said, it's not the report. It's the diamond. But it's also the seller.

 

Chan, are you in the diamond business?

I have seen this attempted ripoff more times than I can remember-why try to send a newbie to get ripped off?

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This advocacy for 2nd and 3rd tier diamond grading labs is surreal and would be funny if consumers hard-earned money wouldn't be placed in harms way.

 

On another current thread on this Forum, the demerits of drop-shipping are highlighted and how many, many consumers buy blindly without doing their due diligence and don't have a clue beyond the rudimentary 4 C's.

 

Don't compound this folly by equivalizing these labs to GIA. There is simply no comparison to GIA.

 

GIA-the last word for diamond shoppers.

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no i am not in the diamond selling business. i actually got into this forum as i was shopping for a engagement ring.

i spent about 3 months with the search. i learned as much as possible. talked to indenpendent appraisers, looked at many many stones, read, etc.

so, you and barry are saying that only dealers that sell GIA stones are to be trusted? are you really telling me that if Neil who appraises diamonds for a living cant buy an EGL stone wihtout being ripped off? i hightly doubt that. i believe neil would be able to buy an egl graded stone without being ripped off. and that is the point i am tyring to make. if you are educated enough about diamonds, it doesnt hurt to look at an EGL stone if it was presented to you. most times you may balk at the price the dealer wants, but at least you know what you are doing.

my whole argument is that diamond sellers on this site continuing to make the claim that you shouldnt even look at EGL certs. a properly education buyer may look at EGL stones and make the right observations about the stone.

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Chan;

 

I was very clear and not referring to dealers but to the great majority of Diamond shoppers/consumers who don't have the time nor the patience to sift through the cacophony of information that is available. Buying a diamond engagement ring for the great majority of guys is difficult, daunting, and anxiety provoking enough as is without further adding to it by pushing inferior diamond grading labs.

 

For those consumers, such as yourself, who do have the time to do the homework, it is no doubt possible to find that "diamond in the rough". For everyone else buying a diamond with a GIA lab grading report assures them of an accurate and stringently graded stone.

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Chan;

 

I was very clear and not referring to dealers but to the great majority of Diamond shoppers/consumers who don't have the time nor the patience to sift through the cacophony of information that is available. Buying a diamond engagement ring for the great majority of guys is difficult, daunting, and anxiety provoking enough as is without further adding to it by pushing inferior diamond grading labs.

 

For those consumers, such as yourself, who do have the time to do the homework, it is no doubt possible to find that "diamond in the rough". For everyone else buying a diamond with a GIA lab grading report assures them of an accurate and stringently graded stone.

 

thanks Barry

i think that was what i was trying to get across. i just dont like blanket statements telling consumers not to buy anything other than GIA stones.

i appreciate the discussion, as this will be helpful to a lot of new people coming on this site...

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Chan, I believe you're misinterpreting what Barry meant.

For everyone else buying a diamond with a GIA lab grading report assures them of an accurate and stringently graded stone.

that's the essence of what Barry was saying, the way I read it.

In any case, I'm curious to know-why are you so interested in promoting diamonds with an EGL report?

I've already explained, that as a dealer, I find it reprehensible when people use less than honest means to represent diamonds-which is why I continually talk about this subject. That's why I am saying what I'm saying.

 

I'm just curious to know why you'd want to go against professional advice and try to design your "diamond world"

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Chan, I believe you're misinterpreting what Barry meant.
For everyone else buying a diamond with a GIA lab grading report assures them of an accurate and stringently graded stone.

that's the essence of what Barry was saying, the way I read it.

In any case, I'm curious to know-why are you so interested in promoting diamonds with an EGL report?

I've already explained, that as a dealer, I find it reprehensible when people use less than honest means to represent diamonds-which is why I continually talk about this subject. That's why I am saying what I'm saying.

 

I'm just curious to know why you'd want to go against professional advice and try to design your "diamond world"

 

lauren:

this wasnt meant to be offensive or anything in that manner. i understand your points, but i also wanted to get across my points on the consumer side of things. if in respects to shady dealers or internet sales, i totally agree that a GIA report is necessary. i just dont think it applies to all aspects of diamond buying by the above average consumer.

thanks!

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Cool Chan!

from the "consumer side of things" wouldn't you agree it's best for consumers to take the advice of seasoned professionals as opposed to people who have done a few weeks of research shopping for a diamond?

 

 

by the way, this warning is not exclusive to Internet sales. It goes double or triple for stores as well.

Edited by diamondsbylauren
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Cool Chan!

from the "consumer side of things" wouldn't you agree it's best for consumers to take the advice of seasoned professionals as opposed to people who have done a few weeks of research shopping for a diamond?

 

 

by the way, this warning is not exclusive to Internet sales. It goes double or triple for stores as well.

 

 

Lauren, a couple of questions.

1. seasoned professional? you are a seller. i expect you to only bump GIA since thats where you make your money. what makes you a professional? cause you sell diamonds for a living?

2. are you saying its impossible to get a great deal on a great diamond just cause its not GIA graded? i am sorry to say, but diamonds are not rocket science. enough due diligence for a few weeks should be very good to someone looking to buy. if i look at enough diamonds with enough information from a a non-seller "seasoned professional" i would pretty much know a lot about diamonds and be able to judge them well enough to know im not getting ripped off. thats why its very important to look at many different stones when you are looking to buy. look at GIA, AGA, EGL-USA, EGL. eventually you will start to notice what differences exist between these labs. you will also understand how to judge a diamond on your own.. and now you are ready to buy the best diamond you can find for your budet. no need to automatically tell a seller you dont want to look at EGL stones, unless you have no clue about diamonds.

my whole point like i said before is...if you do enough studying and take your time, you can look at EGL stones. if not, then go to GIA. if you have no idea what the grades mean and you just want to buy the diamond in one day, go GIA. i dont disagree with GIA being the best. but it doesnt necessarialry mean EGL is not buy-able...

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