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chan2402002
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hi..i just have a general question about grading services. does it really matter if a stone is GIA or AGA or EGL USA graded if i know what to look for in a diamond in person? i understand the need to get a GIA graded diamond if buying online. but if i have a good understanding of what a D color is..a VS or SI clarity is....why should i care if the diamond i buy is not GIA graded?

we all know that EGL USA is not as "strict" as GIA...but in the end, the diamond is still the same diamond no matter who graded it. if its a D color truely, both GIA and EGL USA will say its a D.

i also understand in most cases, what EGL USA says, i should downgrade by one level if i want to see what GIA MIGHT grade it as...but as long as i konw that, should i really only look for GIA stones in person?

the reason i ask, is that i had a debate with a buddy of mine. he said GIA diamond is better. i said to him"no..no matter who grades it, it is still the same diamond...if you understand the 4 C's and know what to look for, you can look at EGL USA stones and make a good evaluation...just cause GIA graded it doesnt mean its a better diamond"

 

how about this example:

i can get a GIA 1 carat stone. J, SI2, very good cut for $5000

or i can get an EGL USA 1 carat stone, E color, SI 1, excellent cut for $5000.

i would rather get the EGL stone..

 

am i missing something here? i think the whole conception that you should only buy GIA stones is misguided. if you konw what to look for and undersatnd the grading differences i think getting an EGL stone is okay.

 

please discuss. thanks!!! and merry xmas!

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but if i have a good understanding of what a D color is..a VS or SI clarity is....why should i care if the diamond i buy is not GIA graded?

All due respect, but what would lead you to believe you could grade a diamond to the exacting standards neccesary to determine if it's a D/VS1, or an E VS2?

 

how about this example:

i can get a GIA 1 carat stone. J, SI2, very good cut for $5000

or i can get an EGL USA 1 carat stone, E color, SI 1, excellent cut for $5000.

i would rather get the EGL stone..

 

am i missing something here? i think the whole conception that you should only buy GIA stones is misguided. if you konw what to look for and undersatnd the grading differences i think getting an EGL stone is okay.

 

please discuss. thanks!!! and merry xmas!

 

 

Yes, you're missing a whole lot.

You can buy a J/Si2 1.00 round- grade by GIA for a lot less than $5k.

If you were trained in grading- and also in the diamond trade as a whole, you'd know that dealers don;t take any grade but one issued from GIA as serious.

It's such a long slippery slope once you step off the foundation of GIA.

The only reason sellers are pushing E/SI1's with EGL reports for 20-40% less than such stones graded by GIA is that they are worth that much less.

 

If you were in the diamond trade you'd see the plethora of dishonest sellers trying to convince unsuspecting buyers that their report- be it EGL, UGL, DGL, ZGL, what have you- you'd see the pattern. Try to convince buyers that Thier E/SI1 with no GIA report is anything like the one with a GIA report.

 

As I sit here, buying millions and millions of dollars from cutters, it's so plain to see.

Any high quality diamond takes a jump in price for every grade it goes up.

The ONLY grade that will cause dealers to pay more is GIA's - period.

Furthermore- it's also painfully clear that the stones sent to the lesser labs, are the lesser stones.

Honest dealers represent honestly.

Trying to convince people EGL is in the same league with GIA is dishonest.

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hi..i just have a general question about grading services. does it really matter if a stone is GIA or AGA or EGL USA graded if i know what to look for in a diamond in person? i understand the need to get a GIA graded diamond if buying online. but if i have a good understanding of what a D color is..a VS or SI clarity is....why should i care if the diamond i buy is not GIA graded?

we all know that EGL USA is not as "strict" as GIA...but in the end, the diamond is still the same diamond no matter who graded it. if its a D color truely, both GIA and EGL USA will say its a D.

i also understand in most cases, what EGL USA says, i should downgrade by one level if i want to see what GIA MIGHT grade it as...but as long as i konw that, should i really only look for GIA stones in person?

the reason i ask, is that i had a debate with a buddy of mine. he said GIA diamond is better. i said to him"no..no matter who grades it, it is still the same diamond...if you understand the 4 C's and know what to look for, you can look at EGL USA stones and make a good evaluation...just cause GIA graded it doesnt mean its a better diamond"

 

how about this example:

i can get a GIA 1 carat stone. J, SI2, very good cut for $5000

or i can get an EGL USA 1 carat stone, E color, SI 1, excellent cut for $5000.

i would rather get the EGL stone..

 

am i missing something here? i think the whole conception that you should only buy GIA stones is misguided. if you konw what to look for and undersatnd the grading differences i think getting an EGL stone is okay.

 

please discuss. thanks!!! and merry xmas!

 

You can put your trust in whatever you wish. You can trust the grading report. You can trust the merchant. You can trust your own eyes. I say it's always best to trust all 3 and not put your faith in any one.

 

Don't trust any grading report blindly, all labs error, some more then others but none are perfect. And diamonds are created in nature with infinite variations so putting them in finite categories doesn't always apply because a stone can be borderline between grades. Diamond grading is nothing more then an opinion, always remember that. There can be several different grading opinions on the same stone by highly regarded labs and professionals.

 

Don't trust any merchant blindly, although most are honest some are not. Having a merchant who stands behind their product, or working with someone you trust or is well established in your community can go a long way.

 

And don't just trust your eyes only because you may not be able to see something a professional can.

 

A combination of all 3 --- a good grading report you feel is reliable, a good merchant who stands behind his product, and a good physical comparison of all criteria in person is what makes the best informed decision.

 

In just another thread David was questioning the legitimacy of a GIA graded 2ct SI1/G EX. Well why is he so worried when it comes with a GIA report? He has some reason to be worried, because grading reports are not absolute, and there's nothing wrong with questioning the grading of any lab, even the GIA.

 

For the record, EGL USA and EGL International are 2 totally different entities, the first being much more respected then the latter.

Edited by Adylon
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David, if that buyer is being offered a GIA 2.02ct G/SI1 EX for $17,200 then why are you worried? What is it you do not trust? The grading report? The merchant? What exactly?

 

I don't put EGL on par with GIA.

 

I do put EGL-USA Toronto/Vancouver on par with GIA, and I think EGL-LA/NY are not far off either, especially on bread-and-butter stones. You'll always find inaccurately graded diamonds from any lab. Problem is when it's graded "wrong" or tough with GIA some dishonest sellers send it to EGL-USA instead hoping for a better grade. If EGL-USA grades the same, they toss the paper, if they grade softer, they toss the GIA paper. So who's dishonest here, EGL-USA, GIA or the seller? Fact of the matter is, if there was not abuse by sellers, EGL-USA would be much more highly regarded. This is why I feel it's not enough to trust the lab. But you should trust the seller as well, and of course inspect the diamond or get an independent expert to examine it for you on your behalf.

 

Saying EGL-USA is on par with "UGL, DGL, ZGL, what have you- " is much more dishonest in my opinion and shows your bias.

 

My stance is no grading report is without error, and should never be accepted blindly. Not the GIA, not any. The more opinions, the better.

Edited by Adylon
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I don't put EGL on par with GIA.

 

I do put EGL-USA Toronto/Vancouver on par with GIA,

 

I understand...... B) See, above I used the "quote" feature. That means I used exactly what you wrote

IN the post above, you contradict yourself in two consecutive sentences.

 

Here's what I wrote that you misquoted

 

If you were in the diamond trade you'd see the plethora of dishonest sellers trying to convince unsuspecting buyers that their report- be it EGL, UGL, DGL, ZGL, what have you- you'd see the pattern. Try to convince buyers that Thier E/SI1 with no GIA report is anything like the one with a GIA report.

 

please stop misquoting me.

 

this thread is not about a 2 carat G/Si1

Edited by diamondsbylauren
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David,

 

EGL <> EGL-USA

(hint: <> means "does not equal" in programming code).

 

Forget about the 2 carat G/SI1 for a second. I'm simply asking, why trust any lab report blindly? You obviously did not which perplexes me since you always demand a GIA report for every stone. Also perplexing to me is why you sell some diamonds without reports but then badmouth other sellers who sell diamonds without GIA reports. So people who sell diamonds without reports are OK but people who sell diamonds with reports you don't like are frauds, yes? You want people to trust you, correct? I think you're a swell trustworthy guy. But why not include a report as well? Not everyone knows the David I've come to know and love B)

 

So before you beat over everyone on the head with this GIA-GIA-GIA-only nonesense, why not be fair and say the problem is not the lab but the sellers who abuse the system?

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hi..i just have a general question about grading services. does it really matter if a stone is GIA or AGA or EGL USA graded if i know what to look for in a diamond in person? i understand the need to get a GIA graded diamond if buying online. but if i have a good understanding of what a D color is..a VS or SI clarity is....why should i care if the diamond i buy is not GIA graded?

we all know that EGL USA is not as "strict" as GIA...but in the end, the diamond is still the same diamond no matter who graded it. if its a D color truely, both GIA and EGL USA will say its a D.

i also understand in most cases, what EGL USA says, i should downgrade by one level if i want to see what GIA MIGHT grade it as...but as long as i konw that, should i really only look for GIA stones in person?

the reason i ask, is that i had a debate with a buddy of mine. he said GIA diamond is better. i said to him"no..no matter who grades it, it is still the same diamond...if you understand the 4 C's and know what to look for, you can look at EGL USA stones and make a good evaluation...just cause GIA graded it doesnt mean its a better diamond"

 

how about this example:

i can get a GIA 1 carat stone. J, SI2, very good cut for $5000

or i can get an EGL USA 1 carat stone, E color, SI 1, excellent cut for $5000.

i would rather get the EGL stone..

 

am i missing something here? i think the whole conception that you should only buy GIA stones is misguided. if you konw what to look for and undersatnd the grading differences i think getting an EGL stone is okay.

 

please discuss. thanks!!! and merry xmas!

 

Chan,

 

A 1 carat GIA/J/SI2/VG will run about $3200 from the dealers here.

A 1 carat EGL/E/SI1 of decent cut will run you about $4600

A 1 carat GIA/E/SI1/VG will be about $5200

 

That’s quite a difference and I understand your point but it’s not nearly as drastic as you are suggesting. EGL-USA grading seems to be priced about 1 to 2 grades lower than GIA grading using similar terminology. EGL-International is often discounted even more. The question is, are they really the same? Does GIA-E really mean the same as EGL-E? Are all SI1’s the same no matter who says it?

 

I think you know the answer. It’s a pretty efficient market and the dealers who are contracting with these labs include some pretty smart folks who would happily send a stone to a different lab if they thought it would increase their sales potential be even a few hundred dollars. The result is that a stone that would bring more with an EGL grading, despite the ‘discount’ that they will need to offer is likely to be sent to EGL while a stone that could command a premium for GIA documentation will get sent to GIA. Since you are not the lab client and you were not involved in their selection, the question become one of identifying errors on the part of the people who have owned the stone before you.

 

It does happen. EGL is both cheaper and easier to deal with and this does account for some of the difference. On a 1 carat stone, this portion of the price difference is going to be $100 or so. What’s the remaining $500? Errors? Stupid dealers? Luck? Maybe. But I many cases a single grade difference is more than that and 2 grades difference swings it entirely the wrong the direction. Maybe it's smart dealers behaving in their own best interest. Are you confident that you can tell the difference? If you trust your dealer enough to guide you through this minefield then you’re right, buy the one that they recommend and ignore the paperwork. If you don’t want to bet quite that much on your dealers ability to remain unbiased even though they have a paycheck riding on the outcome, and you aren’t an expert yourself then you are in a bind. I submit that you have another alternative that Yosef didn’t mention. Hire your own expert; someone who isn’t paid based on the results and who doesn’t have a vested interest in the outcome. Get it appraised by a professional and independent appraiser.

 

Neil

Edited by denverappraiser
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I can understand your points Neil.

We disagree on a few..

I do not feel that trying to do a price analysis involving EGL graded diamonds would not produce any meaningful results.

There are different EGL labs with differing standards of grading.

EGL-USA is not all that much cheaper than GIA- there's not $100 difference on a one carat diamond.

I feel that it's more a question of saleability.

Dealers try to gain every advantage- some will promote stones that are softly graded by any of the non GIA labs ( other than AGSL) to make it appear they are cheaper than others.

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When sellers answer this question it’s prudent to bear in mind that there are different motives: Those who only sell diamonds with GIA reports often defend them as preeminent. Those selling diamonds from second & third tier labs may try to dilute GIA’s reputation or boost that of the labs they use.

 

So... Keeping in mind that we are not immune to such motives - since we are a seller B) - I will relay our experience (the mileage of other sellers may vary):

 

Our co-founder, Brian Gavin, is a diamond cutter with five generations in the diamond trade. When he came to America and began selling he sent his diamonds to GIA exclusively, since that lab has surpassed all others in reputation for many years. Shortly after 2000 he switched his signature line from GIA to AGS (AGS has the same roots as GIA) primarily because of the additional cut information they were including, which our client base desired. Thousands of diamonds later we feel AGSL color and clarity grading is on-par with GIA and their cut grading system is stricter. We continue to send a significant number of diamonds to GIA because it is undeniably the global standard; often requested by clients.

 

We never sent our own production to EGL labs, but we do bring diamonds in on-request for clients. For some years we included EGL graded diamonds in this practice, but discontinued it due to a lack of consistency & strictness: As a body their grading was simply not on par with GIA and AGS. While we agree with Adylon that it’s possible to find EGL paper accompanying some diamonds that could wind up the same if held to GIA/AGS standards our sampling indicated that this is the exception rather than the rule.

 

I don’t know anyone independent who would put EGL on par with GIA. Manufacturers are very aware of lab stature, so if you’re looking for a diamond of top pedigree (especially top cut quality) the best are often sent to GIA/AGS where they will earn a top cut grade on what's considered “superior†paper. Second-tier labs offer report formats where those cut details are not disclosed, which clouds things for the buyer.

 

If you're interested in manufacturer motivations, here is an article that may be of interest. My favorite quote is this one:

 

“Remember, the path of a stone from the mine to you was not chosen randomly and it wasn’t chosen by you… …The choices are made by clever people who are working on razor thin profit margins that can vary considerably depending on the results. If they think they can make more money with a diamond by sending it to a different lab there’s a pretty good chance that this is what they’ll do.â€

 

Having said all the above, the short answer is that GIA & AGS are the top labs in our estimation. However, no lab is perfect. We agree wholeheartedly with the saying “buy the diamond, not the paper.†This is why we (and other reputable internet sellers) would never sell a diamond without first having our own gemologists examine & analyze it themselves. We also support the idea of including an independent appraiser in important purchases. There is a lot to this and it’s usually a lot of money changing hands, so it’s worth doing right from A-Z.

Edited by JohnQuixote
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I submit that you have another alternative that Yosef didn’t mention. Hire your own expert; someone who isn’t paid based on the results and who doesn’t have a vested interest in the outcome. Get it appraised by a professional and independent appraiser.

 

Neil

 

Sorry I didn't mean to disclude this B) The three trust factors I talked about (grading report, merchant, physical inspection/comparison) can be scrutinized right at the point of sale, getting an independant appraisal can not. I suppose you could hire an appraiser to accompany you as you buy your diamond if you really wanted too, but if you're a fussy customer and paying by the hour that could get expensive B) Independant appraisals are definately very helpful and another tool to establish trust, and I always recommend people who buy from me to have their jewelry independant appraised after purchase both for peace of mind, and for insurance purposes.

 

Best regards,

Yosef

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Hey John, I agree with a lot of what you just wrote. Let me just fill you in a little on the Canadian market because I think it's relevant to this discussion. Up until, shoot I think 2002, all diamonds in Canada for the most part were graded by Gemscan. Gemscan even gave a cut grade if you believe it since like the 80's, long before any other lab I know of. But they didn't use high tech optical plots of established ideal cut stones or numerical charts or formula. They basically just looked at the diamond as a whole and graded it based on it's beauty. Poor, Fair, Good, Very Good, Ideal. I worked with a friend of the family in Canada who now runs a very large successful wholesale operation there and has their own brand of Canadian diamonds. For the most part their diamonds were very well cut. Nothing like ACA like whiteflash does, but these were very nice makes at the time. Would you believe that 50% or so got only "Good" cut grade from Gemscan? maybe 35% "Very Good" and 10% "Ideal" just off the top of my head if I recall correctly. When Gemscan said it was a "Good" cut that's wha it really meant --- GOOD. Not like the GIA system today. And what passes over there for I1 would astonish you. You'd swear it was SI2 or even SI1 by American standards. And that was even given the fact Gemscan uses an SI3 clarity grade. SO enter EGL-USA in Canada around 2002-ish. They saw the diamond market taking off in Canada, branded Canadian diamonds, etc and so EGL-USA opens 2 offices. One in Toronto, the other in Vancouver. Now they had to establish themselves as reputable labs of course to take business away from Gemscan so they also graded somewhat on the strict side. EGL-USA now has taken a very large market share stake in Canada. It's a pain in the ass to send stones to AGS or GIA here in the US because of duties, customs, etc, just to have them sent back and so most Canadian diamond wholesalers/vendors use EGL-USA or Gemscan. Those that do get stones graded by GIA/AGS, especially branded stones, usually set up offices here, and sell through their US offices. They won't ship the stones back to Canada unless specifically for a Canadian customer who ironically has to pay more now for a finished product just because it crossed their border twice.

 

So anyhow my point to the story above, is it just goes to show you how when you have a lab trying to run a tight reputable ship, and their clients don't fool around with any monkey business of sending stones here and there to get better grades, the system works. But unfortunately here in the US people send stones to EGL-USA NY/LA offices expecting softer grades, some even bending their arms asking for better grades... "What??? You think that's a G??? That's a F for sure!!!" And if they don't get their way of course they just keep the GIA paper that says it's a G color. These games for the most part don't exist in Canada. I would challenge anyone here to find me an EGL-USA Toronto/Vancouver stone and send it to the GIA or AGS and get it graded any less. So the problem here is not really with the labs, it's with the sellers.

 

As for EGL-Israel, well they're just corrupt and allow some of their bigger clients to get whatever paper they want and I hate the fact EGL-USA is even associated with them. I do take exception when people paint with broad strokes that "EGL is 2nd or third tier". I don't blame WF for taking the road they have and just not doing business with any EGL graded stones, I've thought of doing the same many times for simplicity sake to make things easier for my customers as well. But I'm a very patriotic guy ... I never liked Canada much to be honest, I was originally born in the US and it just seems so un-American to let the little guy suffer and be taken advantage of and not try and fight the abuse in the system. And that's why I try to support EGL-USA just as I do GIA/AGS. When someone works hard and is trying to run an honest business, I like to support the little guy and I don't want to take sides and see them being taken advantage of by others, and I think diversity in the marketplace benefits everyone. I've never been the politically correct type I guess you could say and so I'm not going to kick EGL-USA down just because others do the same and it's just easier to do as everyone else.

Edited by Adylon
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I submit that you have another alternative that Yosef didn’t mention. Hire your own expert; someone who isn’t paid based on the results and who doesn’t have a vested interest in the outcome. Get it appraised by a professional and independent appraiser.

 

Neil

 

Sorry I didn't mean to disclude this B) The three trust factors I talked about (grading report, merchant, physical inspection/comparison) can be scrutinized right at the point of sale, getting an independant appraisal can not. I suppose you could hire an appraiser to accompany you as you buy your diamond if you really wanted too, but if you're a fussy customer and paying by the hour that could get expensive B) Independant appraisals are definately very helpful and another tool to establish trust, and I always recommend people who buy from me to have their jewelry independant appraised after purchase both for peace of mind, and for insurance purposes.

 

Best regards,

Yosef

 

Most sellers will allow a bit of time after the purchase for the customer to take there stone and show it to an expert appraiser (or anyone else for that matter) prior to the completion of the deal and, if the customer decide they don't like it for whatever reason they get to return it for a full refund. Increasingly customers are doing this and, in my opinion, it almost always benefits them. Even the THREAT of a customer doing this often results in offers of more accurately graded stones and better prices. Obviously the client needs to leave a security deposit and there needs to be a time limit on this sort of thing but it’s usually easy to work out the logistics even when it’s necessary to ship to the appraiser and although I would call the cost nominal, it’s really quite low in comparison to the amount of money involved.

 

Neil

Edited by denverappraiser
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Let me just fill you in a little on the Canadian market because I think it's relevant to this discussion. Up until, shoot I think 2002, all diamonds in Canada for the most part were graded by Gemscan......

This is completely untrue

 

........ I never liked Canada much to be honest,

 

B)

I'm actually speechless after that comment.... ......

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We never sent our own production to EGL labs, but we do bring diamonds in on-request for clients. For some years we included EGL graded diamonds in this practice, but discontinued it due to a lack of consistency & strictness: As a body their grading was simply not on par with GIA and AGS. While we agree with Adylon that it’s possible to find EGL paper accompanying some diamonds that could wind up the same if held to GIA/AGS standards our sampling indicated that this is the exception rather than the rule.

 

I don’t know anyone independent who would put EGL on par with GIA. Manufacturers are very aware of lab stature, so if you’re looking for a diamond of top pedigree (especially top cut quality) the best are often sent to GIA/AGS where they will earn a top cut grade on what's considered “superior†paper. Second-tier labs offer report formats where those cut details are not disclosed, which clouds things for the buyer.

 

John- good analysis- I'

I'm quite sure that any of your clients who's interested in a diamond with non GIA/AGS reports gets a full explanation of the differnce between labs.

The problem is not the non GIA labs, rather the problem is dishonest sellers who are trying to convince people there's no difference between labs....

 

Since you're in customer relations and you talk to people, I'm sure you've gotten the call:

"I'm looking for a D/VVs1 2.00. Someone is selling one for $5,000- do you have one in the same price range"?

 

A little conversation reveals they've been misled. We speak to buyers in this position every day.

Since I take a lot of pride in what I do for a living, I find the misrepresentation to be a personal affront ......

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This is completely untrue

 

 

B) Says who? 10 yrs ago very few GIA/AGS stones were in Canada. Even now they're not all that common. Birks in Canada (which is like Tiffany in the USA) used Gemscan stones almost exclusively for a long time. Yes the largest stones were GIA graded, but 90% of their stock was Gemscan. HRD has also had a presence in Canada for a while but their market share has been smaller then Gemscan in the past. IGI opened the same time roughly as EGL.

 

 

I'm actually speechless after that comment.... ......

It's true my friend B) One of the reasons I left Canada and moved back to the US about 5 years ago was because it was such a hassle selling to Americans. Plus all the best designers were here in LA :)

Edited by Adylon
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I submit that you have another alternative that Yosef didn’t mention. Hire your own expert; someone who isn’t paid based on the results and who doesn’t have a vested interest in the outcome. Get it appraised by a professional and independent appraiser.

 

Neil

 

Sorry I didn't mean to disclude this B) The three trust factors I talked about (grading report, merchant, physical inspection/comparison) can be scrutinized right at the point of sale, getting an independant appraisal can not. I suppose you could hire an appraiser to accompany you as you buy your diamond if you really wanted too, but if you're a fussy customer and paying by the hour that could get expensive B) Independant appraisals are definately very helpful and another tool to establish trust, and I always recommend people who buy from me to have their jewelry independant appraised after purchase both for peace of mind, and for insurance purposes.

 

Best regards,

Yosef

 

Most sellers will allow a bit of time after the purchase for the customer to take there stone and show it to an expert appraiser (or anyone else for that matter) prior to the completion of the deal and, if the customer decide they don't like it for whatever reason they get to return it for a full refund. Increasingly customers are doing this and, in my opinion, it almost always benefits them. Even the THREAT of a customer doing this often results in offers of more accurately graded stones and better prices. Obviously the client needs to leave a security deposit and there needs to be a time limit on this sort of thing but it’s usually easy to work out the logistics even when it’s necessary to ship to the appraiser and although I would call the cost nominal, it’s really quite low in comparison to the amount of money involved.

 

Neil

 

Neil: clearly, if a buyer contracts with you, they are going to get a straight answer.

In a perfect world, where everyone knew someone like you, it might be easier on the buyers.

But in the world we live in, it makes tremendous sense to avoid buying diamonds frorm anyone who you have any doubt in.

That would make a second opinion less vital- although still a good idea.

 

Let's face it- although there are a lot of competant honest appraisers, there's also a lot of BS artists posing as experts.

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Neil: clearly, if a buyer contracts with you, they are going to get a straight answer.

In a perfect world, where everyone knew someone like you, it might be easier on the buyers.

But in the world we live in, it makes tremendous sense to avoid buying diamonds frorm anyone who you have any doubt in.

That would make a second opinion less vital- although still a good idea.

 

Let's face it- although there are a lot of competant honest appraisers, there's also a lot of BS artists posing as experts.

 

Yes, there are. Fortunately for anyone reading this forum, they do know someone like me. B)

 

Neil

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wow..didnt expect such a huge response...thats i love this site..you get some good responses.

 

just to clarify my questions.

the examples i used with $5000 were just examples. i was trying to point out that if an EGL-USA stone grades a stone E color...there is a chance GIA will grade it an E or an F.

or one step lower, EGL-Europe might grade a stone an E color but GIA might grade it a F G or H.

so my point was that a D color VS1 EGL USA might be graded by GIA as a E color VS2. if thats the case you should/could buy the EGL-USA stone if the price is comparable to the GIA counterpart. dont just say no to EGL-USA stones becasue they are not GIA. doesnt mean the stone is bad. its just differences in grading criteria.

 

my original thought process when i posted was..."just cause the stone you bought is not GIA cert, does it really mean its a bad stone. are only GIA stones the best stones?" and my feeling is no. the stone is a stone. no matter who grades it. i think the misconception that you should only BUY GIA stones is misguided. i have no problems getting an EGL-USA stone if i konw what i am buying. i realize that it might be graded slightly less than GIA, but i pay for the stone with that in mind. even less for EGL.

 

so i was tyring to see why people keep thinking GIA is a better "diamond". my friend kept saying GIA diamonds are the best. and i told him, no...GIA doesnt cut the stones or anything..they just grade it. so how can you say they are better stones. you just have to keep in mind they are stricter graders. and if you understand that and know how to look at the diamond, then you can buy an EGL-USA stone with peice of mind..

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Cool- there's bunches of sellers waiting to take your money.

If you think you're smarter about diamonds than the people cutting these things for a living, you are in for a surprise.

 

 

It's not the diamond, or the report which is the problem- it's the misrepresentation. In every case I've seen, important stones with high grades, and non GIA reports are problematic.

Just now I looked at two diamonds- both over 5 carats- both high dollar diamonds. Only one had the GIA report.

Both had the same grade (H/SI1), but the stone graded by EGL was clearly NOT an SI1. I did agree about the color.

Of course the EGL stone was about 19% less per carat.

Except an H/SI2 should be about 28% less.

 

I look at the overall situation. I simply have no interest in the guessing game. It's likely that the stone without the GIA report had been to the GIA, with results which did not suit the cutter- so he threw away the GIA report and tries to make people believe it's H/SI1 using other methods.

More than anything, if I get the feeling a seller is trying to play a game, I simply don't move forward.

 

 

The very best diamonds, form the best dealers- are going to have GIA reports- or AGSL reports. Period.

 

If you want to risk your money, there's plenty of sellers waiting to tell you stories.

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GIA has a well deserved reputation for accuracy, consistency, and stringency in its grading of diamond color and clarity.

 

Buying a diamond with non GIA or AGS lab grading reports invariably means that the consumer is paying MORE money for LESS Diamond.

 

Unless a consumer has a very keen grading eye developed by screening scores and hundreds of diamonds so that an EGL report can be accurately verified, the safe course is to go with GIA.

Edited by barry
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Something consumers should remember is that the labs aren’t manufacturing diamonds; they are grading what’s sent to them.

 

Diamond cutters and manufacturers are not stupid. They match each diamond to the lab & market where it stands the best chance of making a profit.

 

A comparison: You have three children who want to practice law. The goal is to earn the highest salary possible. Your oldest and brightest is capable of graduating from any school on the planet so you send him to Yale Law. Your middle child is almost as bright but might have trouble in a few places at an Ivy League school, so you send him to a state university where he will also graduate near the top. Your youngest, bless his heart, is not the brightest bulb but he needs a degree to practice…you sign him up for cyberskoolonline.com, where he does great.

 

When all’s said and done all three kids have a degree. Some of the grades they received in coursework may be the same, some different, but the paper does not tell the story... Yale Law kid was held to a higher standard than the others, so an A there is more meaningful. Who knows what their grades actually mean by comparison?

 

Consider that law firms understand the differences and will reward these kids' qualifications with different salaries. Meanwhile a consumer looking for representation may not understand the differences - they see a law degree as a law degree - and could wind up paying as much for sloppy representation from cyberskool guy as they would for seamless representation from Yale.

 

As long as that person gets what he/she is seeking in the end I suppose it doesn’t matter, but this is a lively thread and I thought a story would be fun. :)

Edited by JohnQuixote
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