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G, Si1, Excellent


KatieThor
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Nervous about buying and want to make sure it is a fair price. The SI1 makes me nervous.

 

On Paper:

GIA Certificate, Round Brilliant 2.02 Carat, $17,200 loose

Color G, Claity SI1, Ideal Cut, Girdle M-Slightly Thick Faceted, Polish VG, Symmetry VG, Cutlet N, Fluorescent N

It will be set in a really plain 14k gold setting to match wedding band. (original ring was misplaced years ago)

What is faceted? Is it a good thing?

 

I spoke to the seller and asked about the inclusions and he said they are all on the edge, he hand picks his stones for resale and he said he 'liked' the inclusions on this one. He also said it had an AGS of 0 with the best being 000 which is apparently good for this color and clarity? I have not seen the stone nor the GIA 'map' but he did give me the report number and told me where to go to pull up the report on the stone. So I did and when I put all of the numbers (crown angle, pavilion angle, etc) into the GIA Report check, it said the cut grade was excellent. I'm not exactly sure what this means but I have read it is important. It also said additional clouds are not shown.

 

Is the SI1 clarity bad in a large stone? I can have the stone sent to a jeweler to look at before purchasing but I'm not exactly sure what I am looking for. It's not like you can put a loose diamond on your finger.

 

I have looked at local jewelers but their prices are very high and GIA certified diamonds are few, most are IGI... whatever that is. Also, a few years back, one of the tv stations did an undercover sting to see how many jewelers were honest in our area. They took a ring in to be cleaned... (can't remember how many they went to... less than 10) every jeweler but ONE swapped out the diamond. I wasn't shopping for a diamond then so I did not pay attention to names.... wish I had now. I read on your forum where it takes quite a bit of time to swap out a diamond but that was not the case in Minneapolis. (I think it was Channel 5 that did the sting.) Anyway, jewelers conjure up 'used car salesman' images in my mind.

 

Can anyone refer me to an honest appraiser in Minneapolis? Also, is this a fair price looking at the paper? Would you have the loose stone sent to the appraiser, send it back to the seller to set it, and then back to the appraiser to make certain it is set properly and also the same stone?

 

It is a huge purchase and nerve racking. Just want to avoid the cheaters and pay a fair price.

Thanks.

Kate

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Hi Kate,

 

Wow.

A lot of the things you wrote bring up questions.

As far as the TV story, are you really sure about that?

Dateline did a story and found ( I think) one out of 20 that switched a diamond- I have a really hard time believing that 9 out of 10 swiitched a stone.

 

What's more pertinent is this alleged diamond.

I say alleged, because no dealer can sell the described diamond ( 2.02cts RBC grade G/SI1 and EX cut grade by GIA) for $17,200 without loosing money.

A G/ SI1 as described is going to cost at least $20k

 

My strong advice: DO NOT SEND MONEY TO THE PERSON MAKING SUCH AN OFFER

 

I'm assuming this is an internet seller, and that they do not possess the diamond- no photos, right?

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I was actually the expert for one of these shows. They had me inspect a diamond and set it in a ring which they then ran around town with a hidden camera and had stores size it. After each one they would then bring it back to me and have me inspect it again to see if anything was out of order. We did this for about a dozen stores before they got tired of it. The show never aired because they were looking for a scandal and not a single jeweler switched it, damaged it or otherwise did what they wanted. A few did crappy work but that wasn’t the subject of the show and the producers didn’t think that would make for interesting television. I’ve never seen the show you’re alluding to and I suppose it’s possible that you live in a den of thieves but I would be very surprised if the jewelry stores in your town are really that full of criminals. In my town (Denver) they definitely are not.

 

Neil

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...They took a ring in to be cleaned... (can't remember how many they went to... less than 10) every jeweler but ONE swapped out the diamond. ...Kate

 

Sorry Kate, but I have lived in Minneapolis all of my life and have never heard of any TV jewelry expose remotely close to the one you described.

 

Diamond switching is by and large a urban myth. Jewelers may spend their lifetime of 6-7 days per week of work developing their reputation in this word of mouth/referral dependant business... It simply does not make sense that even one jeweler would do this.

 

Yes, there are bad apples, but this is true of all professions. But please think of how ridiculous it sounds to say that there was a TV expose of twelve surgeons and every one of the twelve recommended and performed unnecessary surgery.

 

OK, I feel better now :-)

 

On your question for an appraiser.

 

Neil is one of the best.

 

And here is a local guy.

 

http://www.jewelryappraisalservice.com/

 

Happy Holidays everyone!

 

 

Brian

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There’s nothing wrong with buying an SI1. For most people, there will be nothing eye visible under any lighting conditions.

 

IGI is a competitor to GIA. They are nothing like as reliable or consistent and often stones graded by them will trade at a discount for this reason. You’re wise to stay with GIA, especially if you are trying to buy a stone without looking at it.

 

Here are some places to look for local appraisers.

 

www.americangemsociety.org

www.najaappraisers.com

www.appraisers.org

 

If you can’t find a local independent (meaning someone who doesn’t work out of a jewelry store and who doesn’t sell diamonds), I can assist. FedEx offers a wonderful service.

 

Yes, I recommend having your stone sent to the appraiser for inspection prior to setting and then afterwards setting for an additional quality inspection that can then include the craftsmanship of the mounting, the assembly labor as well as inspecting for damage and to match the stone to the original data from the first inspection. The documentation to submit to your insurance will be the report from this second inspection.

 

Neil

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And here is a local guy.

 

http://www.jewelryappraisalservice.com/

 

I notice this fellow claims to be a CGA and even provides a link to the AGS site.

 

Here's a list of all CGA's in Minnesota.

 

He's not an AGS titleholder although it looks like he has a couple of relatives who are and perhaps he used to be. He may be a skilled appraiser but, I must say, starting out by misrepresenting his credentials in the masthead of his appraisal is a bad sign.

 

Neil

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And here is a local guy.

 

http://www.jewelryappraisalservice.com/

 

I notice this fellow claims to be a CGA and even provides a link to the AGS site.

 

Here's a list of all CGA's in Minnesota.

 

He's not an AGS titleholder although it looks like he has a couple of relatives who are and perhaps he used to be. He may be a skilled appraiser but, I must say, starting out by misrepresenting his credentials in the masthead of his appraisal is a bad sign.

 

Neil

 

 

Neil,

 

Isn't this him in the link you provided?

 

 

Emil Gustafson Jewelers

David H. Buchkosky ,CGA

2278 Como Ave.

St. Paul, MN 55108

Phone: 651.645.6774

 

 

Brian

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I stand corrected (partially). Yes, that seems to be him and that does make him entitled to use the CGA title under the right circumstances. The member store that he is employed by is different from how he titles both his appraisals and website and this is a definite violation of the AGS rules on the usage of titles. A titleholder is not permitted to use their title under the auspices of a non-member firm nor are they permitted to operate as individuals without applying for membership as either a retailer themselves or as an independent appraiser.

I agree that this is a much less severe offense than I was thinking when I wrote the prior post but the fact that he doesn’t even mention on his credentials that he’s currently employed by a jewelry store and is operating on their behalf when he signs his appraisals still strike me as an important omission.

 

Neil

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hi guys,

i was wondering what you both thought of the price?

 

I won't make value comments on specific stones that I haven't seen and any value conclusion must be related to a specific marketplace to be useful. That's an appraisal. Katie is right to be looking for a reliable appraiser to consult with.

 

Neil

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I am very familiar with specific market conditions as we buy every day- I know that no dealer would be able to sell for $17k... but rather than make an appraisal Neil, my question is about goods with GIA reports from 2006 and 2007- let's speak specifically about newer round diamonds with the Cut Grade.

I say this because this category is surely the most consistent in terms of pricing.

That is to say, A G/Si2 emerald Cut, for example, can really vary widely in price- justifiably. The GIA report can't really indicate most stones desirability.

But in the case of the new rounds, with a cut grade, there's simply not that variability in the pricing.

If you want a round, EX cut, you might pick a 57% table, or prefer a 60%- if both have the GIA "EX" cut grade, they are worth the same amount, in my opinion.

 

A 2 carat G/SI1 round with GIA EX cut grade could easily sell for double the $20k I'm estimating as a really low price- in a "high street" type of store.

But would it not indicate a problem for a dealer to be offering it well below wholesale market?

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I am very familiar with specific market conditions as we buy every day- I know that no dealer would be able to sell for $17k... but rather than make an appraisal Neil, my question is about goods with GIA reports from 2006 and 2007- let's speak specifically about newer round diamonds with the Cut Grade.

I say this because this category is surely the most consistent in terms of pricing.

That is to say, A G/Si2 emerald Cut, for example, can really vary widely in price- justifiably. The GIA report can't really indicate most stones desirability.

But in the case of the new rounds, with a cut grade, there's simply not that variability in the pricing.

If you want a round, EX cut, you might pick a 57% table, or prefer a 60%- if both have the GIA "EX" cut grade, they are worth the same amount, in my opinion.

 

A 2 carat G/SI1 round with GIA EX cut grade could easily sell for double the $20k I'm estimating as a really low price- in a "high street" type of store.

But would it not indicate a problem for a dealer to be offering it well below wholesale market?

 

David, I think $17,200 is a low price assuming it's properly graded, and perhaps it should raise a flag, but it doesn't seem that low to me where I'd question the legitimacy of the stone.

 

What ever happened to putting absolute faith in a GIA report as you always advocate? If GIA says is a G/SI1 doesn't that mean it's a G/SI1 as far as you're concerned?

 

What if the seller bought it off the street? Or had it traded in for a bigger rock? I know some jewelers who will do whatever it takes to close a sale on a new customer, even selling at cost in the hopes of having refferrals and repeat business. Some would prefer to make their profit on the ring, even though I don't agree with this practice. But not every diamond dealer buys memo the day of the transaction, and not every dealer expects a 30-50% profit margin on a larger stone such as this... Or it could just be something as simple as the jeweler bought the stone for $16,000 and wants to end his fiscal 2007 books with less inventory and is happy to make $1200 on it. Is $17,200 a low price for a stone like this? Yes. Does it mean the jeweler is pulling a fast one? That's not fair to say.

 

We live in an age where diamonds are more and more commoditized and are sold retail for a small margin over wholesale. Your beloved GIA is helping to further this trend with their excellent-cut rounds, and I expect them to follow in the footsteps of the AGS and expand on fancy-shape ideal cut grading as well further commoditizing diamonds.

 

 

Best,

Yosef

 

PS - Merry Christmas everyone! B)

Edited by Adylon
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Yosef,

What I said was that a dealer offering a 2.00 G/SI1 EX cut grade at $17k indicates a problem.

We already know there's a plethora of sellers trying to convince people their 2.00 G/SI1 with some lesser report is worth what the stone with the GIA report is worth. Since these sellers are in the diamond business, we must assume they know they are lying.

 

But say a dealer is ostensibly offering a 2.00 WITH the proper GIA EX cut grade report.

Is it possible a jeweler that would actually stock a 2 ct G/SI1 with GIa EX cut grade, paid $16k for it? I suppose that's within the realm of possibility if they bought 12-18 months ago. Today, it's not possible to buy at such prices within the trade.

 

But most stores that actually have inventory ( as opposed to lists) are not going to sell at the old price.

We're still waiting to hear from the original poster to see where she's found this quote.

An internet seller who does not even possess the diamond offering the old price is blowing smoke.

 

As an internet jeweler that DOES stock and sell millions of dollars in GIA graded stones a year, I can tell you that margins of 50% are simply impossible - IF you expect to be able to sell next to Blue Nile and others. That's one reason stocking such stones is so difficult. We're able to do it by volume.

 

I know some jewelers who will do whatever it takes to close a sale on a new customer

We agree- while I do not believe that 9 out of 10 switched a stone, I do believe that the ultra competitive marketplace has driven many sellers to use tactics which call integrity into play.

Some of these include the attempt to convince buyers they're getting a certain quality of diamond, when in fact, there's no report to back it.

 

I also believe some of the database listing sites have stones which are still at old prices- yet these stones are not available when someone wants to buy it at that price.

 

 

 

I searched on a large internet diamond database site.

The least expensive comparable stone there is $18600- with others going up to $21600. In many cases, the lower priced stones on these database lists are not available when a consumer goes to buy them, while lo and behold- the higher priced ones are still there......

 

 

What I've learned from many clients- and my own observations is that when a seller claims to have something that's too good to be true, there's usually something less than honest going on somewhere.

Edited by diamondsbylauren
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David, I have no idea who this other jeweler is, etc. But I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt. $17,200 is low but it's not unreasonably low in my opinion. He can put it for sale wholesale @ $17,200 and it's to not gauranteed to move right away. If it were $14,000 I'd be concerned. I could sell that stone wholesale in the blink of an eye @ $14,000. I can't say that for $17,200. You're still missing the fact that he could have bought it yesterday for $10,000 or whatever second-hand from a consumer. It's a competitive business and vendors that compete only on price have found other ways to obtain cheaper goods.

 

BTW - when I said some jewelers will do anything to close a sale, I wasn't talking in mischievous means, I meant selling at cost, or even under cost to keep that customer from shopping elsewhere. I've seen it happen many times... by HONEST sellers. Although I would never do that personally.

 

I wouldn't be shocked at all to know she bought a GIA 2ct G/SI1 VG/VG/EX for $17,200 and find out that's what she actually got.

 

FYI - my adylon.com website is like my physical store - still under construction B) Ya I know it's taking forever, when I open though I'll be celebrating like it's 1999.... I hope you come by and say hello. It's going to be the coolest, swankiest little jewelry store in southern california... actually in Bubank near all the movie studios. B)

Edited by Adylon
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Yosef, we buy stones like this all the time.

Ain't nobody selling 2 ct G/SI1 EX cut grade at 20 back of rap anymore. I'm talking about at the wholesale level.

Good luck getting your store together, but we're already up and running- and have been for many years. I'm basing my comments on stones we've traded over the past 7 days.

 

Advising consumers that "maybe the guy bought it off the street yesterday, and needs to dump it below market" is misleading.

It's possible- maybe a pawn shop is selling it.

But if it's a diamond dealer, the price is suspicious.

Edited by diamondsbylauren
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I’m inclined to agree with David, this is not a repeatable transaction and that’s is a bad sign when it’s coming from a dealer. Dealers are in the business of buying things, selling them at a profit and then taking some (perhaps most, but not all) of the proceeds and buying another one that they can then sell to someone else. The remainder they then use to pay themselves and their expenses. A 2.00+/GIA/G/SI1/X is a hot item right now and the ‘normal’ channels would not support this price. Are there other channels? Of course.

 

Consumers sell things, although there are precious few that meet that list of specs, dealers go out of business from time to time and need to liquidate, people make pricing errors or have alternative agendas and sometimes they just need the money. Pricing significantly below the market is a red flag and one seriously competitive retail marketplace is right at your fingertips. The link at the top of the page titled ‘find online jeweler’ lists pages and pages GIA graded stones that superficially meet those specs. The database here doesn’t include cut grade as one of the search categories (by the way Hermann, it really should), but a lot of the stones have more data on the dealers site and just looking at clues I see it looks to me like $21k seems to be where stones like that are being priced by the folks who advertise here. These guys aren’t necessarily the rock bottom pricewise but they’re generally pretty close.

 

So we agree that something is going on and we’re trying to decide what based on incredibly sparse information. It might be the dealer. It might be the stone. It might be the lab. It might be the circumstances. The difference is important. I again support the original plan of seeking out independent professional advice from someone who doesn’t have a vested interest in the deal. There’s quite a bit of money at stake to be just guessing.

 

Neil

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