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chan2402002
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Yes.

 

European Gemological Laboratories International is a franchise out of Belgium of about half a dozen different labs that operate out under the EGL brand. It includes labs in Belgium, Israel, Turkey, South Africa and others.

 

More about them straight from their own mouths is at:

 

http://www.egl.co.za

 

EGL-USA was once a franchisee but they had a parting of the ways quite a few years ago and they operate as a completely different company. They have several labs in the US and Canada. To the best of my knowledge they don't operate outside of North America but I've heard rumors that they are planning setting up a lab in India.

 

http://www.eglusa.com

 

Neil

Edited by denverappraiser
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HI Samuel,

Are you speaking as someone who sells diamonds?

 

I'm speaking as a dealer.

There's no question that a diamonds' grade is subjective- that is to say, it's based on human observation and opinion.

But it's also true that there's no serious dealer that would accept ANY grade short of a GIA ( or AGSL on Ideal cut round diamonds) if there's a lot of money at stake.

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Where you are in the world also matters.

 

In Europe the HRD is held in high regard. Their color & clarity standards and consistency are in line with GIA.

 

The IGI is far softer than GIA/AGS in the USA. That lab is widely used by commercial chain stores and sometimes their diamonds can be 2 or even 3 grades lower in color and clarity than GIA standards. Meanwhile, in China the IGI has a reputation that is similar to the GIA in the USA and HRD in Europe. This is mainly because of Marc Brauner, CEO of the Hong Kong lab, who has strictly enforced that location's standards.

 

EGL-USA is stricter than other EGL locations, but still not as strict or consistent as GIA/AGS on the whole. Some of the other EGL labs are far softer.

 

GIA is still considered the global standard, and AGS (which sprung from GIA) keeps pace but grades far less diamonds due to their specialized cut requirements and smaller global footprint.

Edited by JohnQuixote
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Hey All1

John, I agree with most of what you said- .

I have zero experience in China.

But I have had experience with HRD reports.

They are in the same category as all the other non GIA labs.

That was my experience in Belgium as well as NY.

 

Just today I saw a diamond, close to 7 carats in size, graded J/SI1 by one of the non EGL/USA's.

It was a very unusual stone.

Looked amazing thru the loupe, but like crud when you actually looked at it without the loupe.

The reason I could see for this was that a large table, combined with some strange corner/pavilion relationships.

 

In any case, the stone was an L if it wasn't an M- and it was a pretty poor SI2.

 

I could also see that there was not a lot of "top"...the diamond was not overly deep overall, yet the crown angles were very shallow- meaning most of the dimaond was below the girdle.

I believe this would mean the diamond would lose a lot of weight if it was recut to make the table smaller.

Sometimes, a "repair" like this can be done for only a few points.

In other cases, correcting a too large table might mean the cutter would need to grind away a carat or more.

 

Anyway- This it the type of stone we frequently see being pawned off with substandard reports.

 

John, if you've seen a lot of HRD's which you considered accurate, I'd certainly consider that meaningful.

I've examined more than a few diamonds carrying HRD reports that "overgraded" the stones, to a substantial degree- putting them in the same league with other non GIA/AGSL reports being discussed here.

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John, if you've seen a lot of HRD's which you considered accurate, I'd certainly consider that meaningful.

I've examined more than a few diamonds carrying HRD reports that "overgraded" the stones...

 

I've seen a fair share of HRD stones but not on a regular basis. Brian Gavin is in Antwerp quite often and he's of the same opinion as you. Having seen some equal specimens I feel it may be a consistency issue... Either way I'm inclined to agree that in the big picture you're right David.

Edited by JohnQuixote
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Hi,

 

sorry I forgot to answe the question. I am based in Antwerp, having offices in Liege and Paris. We don't buy or sell anything, we just make a living from our expertise.

 

Samuel,

 

Welcome to the forum. That’s not so different from what I do but I’m generally working for the other side of the battle (the consumers). As I’m sure you know, there are very few of us out there who do appraising without selling things.

 

You mentioned that you do loss adjustment. This is interesting to me. In the US there are independent claims adjusters who serve as representatives of the insurance companies in post-loss insurance work for negotiating a settlement between an insurance company and their insured’s. Is this what you mean by ‘loss adjustment’?

 

Do you have a webpage promoting your service?

 

Neil

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Hi Samuel,

In the 30 plus years I've been doing this- and thousands and thousands of stones purchased by me personally with GIA reports- I've NEVER seen them make such a mistake as not noting florescence.

 

 

As far as your opinion of the color and clarity- sure, that's your right to disagree.

But as you've said, you're no dealer. Therefore your grading skills are clearly not up to the level of someone buying and selling diamonds all day.

 

Another aspect of our different positions means that we view reports differently.

For example: I buy from established regular sources. This means I do not have to question whether the GIA report actually matches the diamond.

Of course we check, as anyone is capable of error.

But there's never the question of fraud when we buy.

In an evaluation business, I'd imagine you must need to view any diaomnd as suspect- because you don;t know who you're buying from, or evaluating for.

Edited by diamondsbylauren
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That's all great Samuel, but we come back to where you're intimating that GIA, IGI and HRD- are interchangeable

Here's what you've said:

For colors from D to L, I have not seen much difference between GIA and HRD or IGI.

 

 

Is this still your position?

 

 

You've also claimed that you have a diamond with strong fluorescence, and a GIA report stating no fl........

 

Are you still claiming GIA missed this, as opposed to the report and diamond not matching?

 

 

$100,000 minimum? Interesting business model: If I understand correctly...if a client has a $90,000 diamond to be appraised, you turn them away?

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Hi Samuel,

I did not really understand what your response was regarding the gem lab question....but maybe if I put this into context you might understand my vigilance.

 

See, when a seller is trying to convince a buyer that EGL, HRD, IGI, etc....is the equivalent of GIA, there's a huge possibility that the seller is attempting to mis-represent something.

You're not a seller, and this probably does not apply to you....

 

But in your answer above I did understand one thing....your position means you need to look at any diamond placed before you with skepticism.

As you've said, maybe someone polished an inferior diamond to match an existing GIA report for a higher quality diamond.

I imagine that sometimes people might even have non diamond material that they submit to you as a diamond.

 

 

This is an entirely different position than I am placed in when presented with a diamond that carries a GIA report- mainly because I know who I'm buying from very well.

 

The most important point for readers is that honest legit dealers will never try to convince the buyer that the other labs are equivalent to GIA.

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There is a big difference between the two.

 

I would not trust an EGL-Israel or other EGL-Int'l lab report for that matter at all. I'd use it as a starting point more or less and assume the worst. With EGL-USA you can put a lot more faith in it. Not to say it's better then a GIA or AGS lab report, but it's not that far off and mostly on par with mainstream stones in my opinion. I'm talking about smaller stones that are not D/FL. Everyone makes mistakes, GIA and AGS are not perfect, and their grading does not constitute any gaurantee. The guarantee comes from the diamond dealer, not the diamond grader. You can't take a diamond back to GIA and tell them they graded it wrong and they're responsible for your loss.

 

I don't know about you, but most consumers don't buy a dozen loose diamonds at a time, they buy 1. So scrutinize that one and shop carefully. Don't assume your GIA, AGS, EGLUSA, EGL-Int'l, IGI, or whatever diamond is graded accurately. Compare it side by side with other graded diamonds. Look at it in various types of lighting conditions, under a microscope, etc. Do you like it compared to the others?

 

If you want a big premium stone get one with a reliable report like GIA or AGS. If you want the very best ideal cut stick with AGS. But if you're like 50% of Americans and purchasing a stone <$5000 and it's not a super-ideal cut you're after, usually there's nothing wrong with an EGL-USA graded stone, especially if you shop right and scrutinize.

 

The way I look at it, there are 3 criteria every consumer should look at when buying a diamond:

1) Is it graded accurately? (Is it graded by a reputable lab and are you condident in their grade?)

2) What is the gaurantee of the grading? Is it non-refundable/buyer-beware like on ebay or something? Or does the seller stand behind their grading 100%?

3) How does the diamond look to you compared to other diamonds you've seen? Does it meet all your expectations in person?

 

Just because you met criteria #1 and have a diamond that's graded by the GIA or AGS doesn't ensure you got a diamond you'll be happy with and confident in purchasing in criterias #2 and #3. Although I trust the GIA and AGS grading very much, I don't put absolute faith in any lab to be right 100% of the time.

 

Best Regards,

Yosef

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Hi Everybody!

 

Yosef, there's quite a few things about what you wrote that I respectfully disagree with.

Don't assume your GIA, AGS, EGLUSA, EGL-Int'l, IGI, or whatever diamond is graded accurately. Compare it side by side with other graded diamonds. Look at it in various types of lighting conditions, under a microscope, etc. Do you like it compared to the others?
How could a consumer could see the difference between an F/VVS2, and an G/VS1. Of course they can't- they need to deal with someone they trust.

Grading is subjective. What that means is that one qualified grader might call a diamond SI1, and the next VS2- and they could both be right. GIA has "re-canted" many time.

If someone disagrees with a grade, they can re-submit for a re-check. GIA has reversed itself in these cases many times.

SO it's not the accuracy that we're really talking about here. It's trust.

 

If you want a big premium stone get one with a reliable report like GIA or AGS. If you want the very best ideal cut stick with AGS. But if you're like 50% of Americans and purchasing a stone <$5000 and it's not a super-ideal cut you're after, usually there's nothing wrong with an EGL-USA graded stone, especially if you shop right and scrutinize.

 

First of all, many GIA graded diamonds are cut just as well as diamonds with AGS reports.

Secondly, if it's my $4000, it's still a lot of money.

This is not to say that every diamond with a GIA report is worth buying, and every diamond with a lesser report is not.

Again, it's about trust.

We've sold thousands of diamonds larger than 1.00 with no GIA report.

 

The way I look at it, there are 3 criteria every consumer should look at when buying a diamond:

1) Is it graded accurately? (Is it graded by a reputable lab and are you confident in their grade?)

2) What is the gaurantee of the grading? Is it non-refundable/buyer-beware like on ebay or something? Or does the seller stand behind their grading 100%?

3) How does the diamond look to you compared to other diamonds you've seen? Does it meet all your expectations in person?

 

A point we agree on is number 3: a great grade grade does not necessarily make a diamond attractive, or desirable.

Not every D Internally Flawless is good looking.

 

 

Number 2 is misleading.

Misleading because there is NO guarantee of a diamond's grade from ANY lab- this due to the subjective nature of grading.

I agree that eBay can be a dangerous place- but every day I walk down 47th Street- and in many other retail environments- to see a lot of misrepresentation going on.

I've seen good sellers in both places too. Please have a look at our eBay store Yosef.

 

 

For me, whether it's in a store, or on a website, it's all about honest representation.

I'm a diamond dealer, and I know that no report other than GIA is taken seriously in the diamond markets of the world.

That does not mean that having a GIA report guarantees the grade.

Today, the diamond market is hot for very fine stones. Still, the grade does not guarantee the price either.

If GIA gave a diamond VS1, but the dealer thinks it's VVS2, he can try to get a higher price- but unlikely to succeed.

If a diamond was "lucky" and the dealer expected SI2, but he gets an SI1, it will likely be tougher to sell, therefore the market will dictate a lower price.

 

Muddying the waters about what constitutes a legitimate grade to a dealer, within the trade, can only serve one purpose- confusing the consumer.

 

I get letters every day from people who are shopping and trying to compare.

Today someone mentioned a 4 carat plus Emerald cut diamond they'd seen, at a dealer.

G/SI1, for under $30k.

AS far as I know, ain't nobody can buy no G/SI1 4 carat today for that kind of money......

The "Rap" on a 4 carat Fancy Shape G/SI1 is $15200 per carat.

The consumer was quoted less than $7500 per carat.

 

What do you other guys think about this price?

I'm sure you can guess the answer to the question "GIA report?"

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Hi David,

 

I don't think #2 is misleading. I think there are many layers of trust and the more the better. Trust can come in various forms not just what's on your diamond's grading report. For example some people will take it to an appraiser they've heard good things about and to them having an expert examine it gives them a trust factor.

 

Another example: if I buy something online using my American Express and the seller claims it to be G/SI1 and I take it to my appraiser and they say it's a H/SI2, I can take that paper, fax it to AMEX and launch a fraud investigation if the merchant refuses to refund. That's a level of trust. I trust AMEX to back me up in cases of fraud.

 

But the merchant themselves can also give the consumer a level of trust. For example, I'm sure if a consumer buys something from Tiffany and they put it on paper as G/SI1 and get it appraised H/SI2 a year later and was indeed graded inaccurately to begin with, I'm very certain Tiffany would work with the customer to avoid bad publicity, bad BBB ratings, etc. You buy from a store like Tiffany because there's another level of trust associated from buying from an established business such as this.

 

I'm actually going to be opening my store soon (if I ever finish my damn construction!) :huh: ..... and one of my selling points will be that all my diamonds are "Certified by Adylon". If I sell it as SI1/G and it's later appraised as an SI2/H ... even a year later.... I'll issue a full refund no questions asked. There are restrictions of course, I'm working on the fine print.

 

I can respect dealers that just want to sell GIA graded diamonds and would rather put the "responsibility" of accurate grading on someone else like the GIA lab. Others do the same thing but sell poorly graded EGL-Int'l or other goods and also claim they are "certified" therefor misleading the customer. But bottom line, if it's really certified, the merchant will back it up regardless of the paper.

 

So my goal will be to take it one step further --- to sell accurately graded diamonds in MY opinion with premium grading reports.... and to back that "certified" diamond up with a money back guarantee. I think it's the responsibility of the merchant to aid the consumer in making them feel as comfortable with their purchase as possible. This means accurate grading reports..... standing behind your product with a guarantee of some sort.... education and showing them what they're buying through photos, technology, etc. Some dealers will just sell paper and establish trust that way without educating the consumer and standing behind their product and that's fine too. But if I was a consumer I'd want the whole package.

 

Regarding your analogy on the 4ct emerald, of course you're going to ask for a GIA report. Why wouldn't you?

 

I buy a lot of diamonds now from the public, I was lucky enough to get cashfordiamonds.com a while back :blink: 90% of the diamonds I buy from people are in the 0.50-0.80ct SI2-VS2, D-I range.... and you know what I could care less if it's GIA graded or not. If I like it I'll buy it, and if it's already GIA graded maybe I'll give them an extra $50-100 or so to save me the trouble of sending it in myself. Now if I'm buying a 2+ct VS-DEF that's a different story. Personally I think EGL-USA "gets it right" a lot of the time on smaller, common stones. I think they get it right also on bigger stones too, but if I was a consumer and buying a larger, premium stone like the one you quoted, I'd still prefer GIA for fancies or AGS for round ideals.... any additional levels of trust the merchant can offer me is just bonus.

Edited by Adylon
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Amex is great for the consumer Yosef, for sure.

That's because they will enforce a money back guarantee- if it ever came to that point. The consumer would not need a third party, nor would Amex likely accept a third party opinion.

 

That is to say: for a seller to accept Credit cards directly they must understand the risks and responsibilities. Amex charges the highest commission of the major credit cards- but they do offer a lot of advantages in many situations.

Of course there's a cost.

Many merchants that accept credit cards also offer discounts for other methods of payment.

It's likely Tiffany takes very good care of their clientele. It's highly unlikely that Tiffany would issue a refund outside their normal refund period ( if they have one) based on a third party grade.

 

If we're talking about getting refunds for mistaken grades a lot of this revolves around the role of an appraiser.

There's some really competent honest, knowledgeable appraisers out there. There's also a some that are less so.

Maybe Neil will chime in- because he certainly fits into the first category.

 

 

 

Best of luck with your store- I'm really interested in the wording of the "no questions asked Money back year later for a misgrade" guarantee!

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Money back guarantees are an interesting problem. I agree with David that the state of appraisal education is dreadful and there is no oversight at all. Anyone who wants to can call himself or herself an appraiser and can author documents with whatever conclusions they want both about grading and value. There are lots of downstream affects to this that are serious problems both for consumers and jewelers and you are diving into the thick of it with this guarantee.

 

If you’re not prepared to limit who is an acceptable appraiser than you might as well just skip the appraisal requirement. If you are going to add restrictions, you then must decide what those restrictions will be. This is not unprecedented. It has become popular among cruise port jewelers to offer a ‘full refund’ for shoppers if something has been misgraded but, in the fine print are some real stingers. First, the grade must be at least 2 grades off in the subject category to be eligible and the appraisal must be written by a certified gemologist appraiser who doesn’t buy or sell jewelry. Otherwise you must use their ‘expert’. That sounds good until you realize that there are only 13 such appraisers in the entire world because ‘certified gemologist appraiser’ is a trademark of AGS and AGS is a network of retail jewelry stores. Only the narrow group of the 13 ICGA’s (Independent Certified Gemologist Appraiser) meets the standard. For customers who don’t happen to live in the right city it can be an enormous inconvenience and since most people don’t know the details of AGS they rarely understand the rules until it’s too late. Customers typically only have 10-30 days to find an eligible appraiser, get an appointment, get the merchandise to them and get the report back to the jeweler. This isn’t completely impossible because some of us offer national service via FedEx and other overnight services (I’m one of the 13), but a significant majority of the shoppers simply don’t want the hassle and never bother to do it or simply don’t think of since it’s ‘guaranteed’. There are, of course, less draconian ways of filtering appraisers but any way you cut it you are putting yourself of judging who to accept and who to reject. This is guaranteed to be fraught with trouble and possibly even legal action. Frankly, I think it’s a mistake to put yourself in this position.

 

There are alternatives. Costco is a major player in the diamond business and they offer a 100% cash refund on diamonds, forever for any reason.

 

When I point this out to jewelers they usually are floored at the repercussions but it’s not as crazy as it seems if you think about it. For starters, ‘Forever’ doesn’t really mean forever. Buying back diamonds at 20-year old prices is usually a bargain anyway, whatever your refund policy is. Similarly, most jewelers give 10-30 days anyway so the question is where to draw the line between those two. This, of course, depends on how diamonds appreciate over time, how much markup you put on the stones in the first place etc. but I think 10 years safely covers the risky part of ‘forever’. Naturally the stones must be undamaged and the client must both show up at the store with the stone requesting a refund and be able to demonstrate that they bought it there. This guarantee is not transferable. In practice, I can’t imagine more than a percent or two of shoppers are prepared to do even this 10 years later so the risk really is more like the 2 to 5 year window. So what’s the risk? A customer buys a diamond for $xx. 5 years later they come back and collect a refund. At the very least, you got to borrow their money for 5 years at zero percent interest so if the resale value of the stone is the same or higher than you’ve lost nothing other than possibly a cash flow problem. You probably also made some money on a mounting and some assembly labor which aren't refundable. What if values drop? Historically this is unlikely but anything is possible, right? In the extreme where they become worth, say, 10% of the sales price, you go out of business and go get a real job. Game over. In this case you’ll be toast for other reasons anyway, but what if it goes town by say, 1/3? You buy a stone for $5,000, sell it to someone for $6,000 and 3 years later you give a $6,000 refund to take back a stone that you will only be able to resell for $4,000. The $1000 you made is presumably long gone and this is a bite to be sure. You solve this with reserves. The key is in deciding how much extra do you get to charge by offering this bulletproof guarantee and how much of that money do you need to hang onto in order to fund the risks. This is what accountants call a ‘contingent liability’ and a lot of brainpower has gone into how to deal with them. Pension obligations are a classic example and evaluating this sort of thing is the whole business of insurance companies.

 

For example, If you get an extra 5% on your sale, and you sandbag half of that, this means you’ve added $150 to a savings account for the above stone. If 10% of the stones come back and there’s a 25% chance of prices dropping then you’ve got $6000 in reserves to cover this stone and you get to walk away with 75% of the money plus whatever investment income you get from the nestegg while it waits. If the guarantee increases your overall sales, which it will, if you can charge more than 5% extra, which is likely, or the returners buy something else, which some of them will, then this is all just gravy.

 

As a small business I wouldn't go that extreme. My advice is to sell only GIA and/or AGS graded stones, or at the very least only offer your guarantee on these. Choose your stones carefully and offer a 100% cash refund forever if GIA grades it differently, presumably worse, at a later date than what you’ve told them (excluding damage done after the sale of course). No GG’s, no appraisers. GIA is the arbiter. Your risk here is fairly low. Only offer this on specific stones that you can resell easily, like mid to high grade round ideals, charge enough that you can afford the occasional bite and sandbag enough of the proceeds from each one that you have the cash flow to deal wit it. Think of it as a pension fund.

 

Neil

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Hi David/Neil, since the topic came up maybe you guys can review my wording so far and tell me what you think :blink:

 

What I have so far is:

 

Certified by Adylon

Just what does a “certified diamond†mean anyway? Most dealers will tell you a diamond is certified, and this would imply a guarantee; however this could not be further from the truth. Diamonds are graded but not certified by labs like the GIA, AGS, EGL-USA, etc. So what’s the difference between graded and certified you may ask? The labs do not “certify†the accuracy of the grading. Their grading reports only imply their “opinion†of what they feel the diamond is. If some other lab says otherwise, the original lab is not obligated to reimburse you in any way for any change in perceived value. Unfortunately all labs have variations in their grading reports. Their scales differ, their methods of grading are not always uniform, and technology used can be quite different. Even grading within the same lab can be done by different people, and since diamond grading of subjective characteristics such as color and clarity are made by the human eye, there is much inherent error in the grading process that’s never really discussed.

 

Unfortunately some vendors use these variations or errors in grading reports in their favor and knowingly sell diamonds which have been graded soft and are advertised as a higher grade then what they actually are. And since they are sheltered by the fact the diamond is accompanied by the opinion of an outside lab, they feel they’re not liable for selling you these inaccurately graded diamonds.

 

At Adylon, all our diamonds are 100% CERTIFIED to be graded accurately. If you have a diamond independently appraised elsewhere and their opinion is our grading is anything less then we disclosed to you, we will either a. refund you in full for the diamond or b. reimburse you the difference in price based on fair market value at our discretion. In order to qualify, all we ask is that your appraiser is qualified and truly independent and not in the retail trade. Specifically, we will accept reports from the following major gemological laboratories: GIA, AGS and EGL-USA. We also accept appraisals from any independent appraiser who is a member of the NAJA or ASA.

 

We stand behind all diamonds we sell in because we’re very confident in our grading. This is why we also offer such a generous upgrade policy. We are never afraid to take back any diamond we sell because we know our diamonds are of the highest pedigree with exceptional value.

 

 

 

 

 

Once I've got it all squared away I'm going to have a bunch of cards with the warranty, trade up policy, "certified by adylon", etc made into inserts and put in some nice custom mini-folders to give out with every purchase. So my approach will be 3-fold:

1. sell a quality diamond that is accurately graded --- ie. diamonds I grade myself <1ct D/FL ... or GIA/AGS graded for big quality stones.

2. educate them, give them all the tools, photos, technology, and have physical stones to compare side by side to understand what they're buying.

3. back it all up with a guarantee that I will buy back the stone or issue a partial refund if any reputable appraiser/lab states it any less then as I sold it for.

 

Combined with a generous upgrade policy, return policy, lifetime warranty, free cleanings, polishing, rhodium plating, etc... it's a lot to offer a customer rather then just "here's the report, it's a GIA, best of luck to you and don't bother me anymore" type of approach a lot of online vendors seem to have (not you though David) :huh: My goal in the store is to offer customers all the advantages of online and offline shopping. I feel both the store and the website will benefit eachother greatly in the long run.

Edited by Adylon
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1) Make sure you understand what ‘fair market value’ means. This is a legal term and it’s probably not what you think. There’s quite a bit about it on the IRS site at www.irs.gov. Check out the section under charitable contributions.

 

2) You do realize that the only requirement for joining NAJA is the $200 application fee and that the only requirement to advance to full membership is that plus 2 years of undefined ‘experience’, right? There is no gemological education requirement at all.

 

3) What do you mean by ‘truly independent’? I understand the gestalt of course but where’s the border line? Can they offer appraisal or other services to jewelers? Can they have marketing arrangements with jewelers, auction houses or other retail venues to sell their services to the public? Can they have a second job somewhere else? Can their employees? Can they rent or share space with others who buy and sell things? Can they have investments in other jewelry businesses? Can they be drawing a pension from a jeweler where they retired? Can they even be friends with people who work for or own jewelry stores?

 

Neil

Edited by denverappraiser
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1) Make sure you understand what ‘fair market value’ means. This is a legal term and it’s probably not what you think. There’s quite a bit about it on the IRS site at www.irs.gov. Check out the section under charitable contributions.

 

2) You do realize that the only requirement for joining NAJA is the $200 application fee and that the only requirement to advance to full membership is that plus 2 years of undefined ‘experience’, right? There is no gemological education requirement at all.

 

3) What do you mean by ‘truly independent’? I understand the gestalt of course but where’s the border line? Can they offer appraisal or other services to jewelers? Can they have marketing arrangements with jewelers, auction houses or other retail venues to sell their services to the public? Can they have a second job somewhere else? Can their employees? Can they rent or share space with others who buy and sell things? Can they have investments in other jewelry businesses? Can they be drawing a pension from a jeweler where they retired? Can they even be friends with people who work for or own jewelry stores?

 

Neil

 

Hi Neil, I'm glad I posted this, thank you for replying. I thought the NAJA required on-going testing? Am I thinking of another organization? What do you think the best group of skilled/experienced appraisers are if you don't mind me asking? :) Ideally I'd like to just include the 3 major and most accessible labs in the US (GIA, AGS, EGL-USA) as well as maybe a dozen or 2 dozen of the most reputable appraisers. Maybe I should make a list and put them on the website and refer to that list. I just hate to steer people to a specific list of appraisers, it makes it seem biased.

 

Regarding "truly independant" I guess that's also a good question. Really I'm not looking to write a 10 page disclaimer, if I have to do that maybe I'll just get rid of the idea. But I was hoping to just put that in there, and if it became a problem I would just deny the claim and ask the consumer to get it appraised somewhere else, or let the consumer seek legal recourse I guess. I'm really not worried about people exercising their right to get it appraised, in fact I would like to encourage it. You do bring up some good points though, I'll have to think about it some more. Thanks!

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I think the AGS ICGA’s are, as a group, the top gemological appraisers in the country. There are individual appraisers from both ASA and NAJA that are top knotch as well. I would have to list the ASA as second but they suffer the same problem of being too few and widely dispersed. There are only about 50 MGA’s in the whole country. NAJA is a distant third although they are ahead of ISA these days.

 

AGS is the only one that has made any attempt to define what makes an appraiser independent so far but I suspect others will make that part of a title before too long. It'll be interesting to see the variations.

 

Frankly, I would drop the whole area of trying to define a qualified appraiser. Either take the return anyway, like Costco and Walmart does, or just do it using a lab, like GCAL does. I suppose if you are going to be selling correctly graded stones then you aren’t really at risk that EGL, IGI et.al. are going to say that it’s worse than you did so there’s not really much of a downside for you to include them as valid documentation for a refund.

 

Neil

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I think the AGS ICGA’s are, as a group, the top gemological appraisers in the country. There are individual appraisers from both ASA and NAJA that are top knotch as well. I would have to list the ASA as second but they suffer the same problem of being too few and widely dispersed. There are only about 50 MGA’s in the whole country. NAJA is a distant third although they are ahead of ISA these days.

 

AGS is the only one that has made any attempt to define what makes an appraiser independent so far but I suspect others will make that part of a title before too long. It'll be interesting to see the variations.

 

Frankly, I would drop the whole area of trying to define a qualified appraiser. Either take the return anyway, like Costco and Walmart does, or just do it using a lab, like GCAL does. I suppose if you are going to be selling correctly graded stones then you aren’t really at risk that EGL, IGI et.al. are going to say that it’s worse than you did so there’s not really much of a downside for you to include them as valid documentation for a refund.

 

Neil

 

That's what I was thinking as well, maybe just stick to letting customers get appraisals from labs even if they're less prestigous and accept them on par with GIA/AGS, etc.. I mean if the diamonds are graded well the odds of a problem are probably no greater then 1/100 and worst case scneario I just buy the diamond back. What I'm really trying to do is just make the customer feel more confident.

 

Thanks Neil, you're a great help :)

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Glad I could be of assistance. Good luck with your new store.

 

Don’t confuse lab services and appraisals services. Customers can’t get appraisals from labs nor does your guarantee have anything to do with appraising. Appraising has to do with value or expected value on a particular date and in a particular marketplace. Authentication has to do with defining the property. What you are guaranteeing is authentication. Sometimes appraisers do their own authentication and sometimes they will farm this out to a lab depending on what needs to be known and on their own skills and equipment but the report from the lab is just that, a report from a lab.

 

Neil

Edited by denverappraiser
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Hi guys,

Let's remember the point of this thread, Many sellers are using these non GIA grades to purposely confuse consumers,

I don't know adlyon or how he sells- I'm, not referring to anyone specific.

BUT- there's a way to explain why the secondary labs are used, and not a lot of the sellers promoting the non GIA reports is forthcoming about it.

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