Jump to content

How Much Is A "j-k" 2carat Diamond? Beware Of Misgraded Diamonds


diamondsbylauren
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi Everyone!

When shopping for a diamond, the grade of the diamond is crucial in determining the price.

So, who's to say what the grade actually is?

To prove ANY diamond's grade to a dealer, you'll need a GIA report

 

When a seller uses a "mixed" grade- such as calling a diamond "J-K color", they are tipping their hand. GIA does not split grades.

OK- so how much is a well cut true, legitimately graded J color, VS1 Princess Cut diamond, with a valid GIA report?

 

Starting price is around $10,000. That's if you bought one , sight unseen, from a "Database Seller"- one of the sites with 10,000 diamonds, and no photos. They don't have the diamond, so the seller themselves have no idea what it looks like. Saving money in that manner might not get you a very desirable diamond.

In a retail store a nice 2carat J/VS1 princess cut diamond could easily be priced at $14,000

 

Now, if someone is offering a 2carat "J-K" Princess cut for $6000, exactly what color and clarity is it?

 

ANSWER: We have absolutely NO idea. It could be a diamond that's been treated ( the GIA report would eliminate that possibility)

It could be an M color SI2 being called J/VS by a seller. That's a common one.

One thing we know for sure: It will NOT be anything very close to the legit $10-$14,000 diamond.

 

The tactic: Instad of honestly representing the $6000 diamond for what it is, they want to make you believe it's the same as the $10,000+ diamond.

 

Sellers using these tactics have a lot of tools.

For one, they can simply appraise the diamond them self, put a fancy name on the appraisal, making the document look similar to a GIA report, and hope the unsuspecting consumer does not understand what GIA is.

 

Here's another good one- hire someone who's taken a GIA course, then advertise "Certified by GIA trained Gemologists" this statement, by it's very nature, is false- and misleading.

GIA does not certify gemologists.

 

Once GIA's legal department catches whiff of that one, they would take action- but the problem is so extensive, there's little likelihood of GIA catching even 5% of the sellers using these deceptive tactics.

 

 

Bottom line: If a seller is using a split grade, ask to see the GIA report- heck, ask to see it even if they are NOT splitting the grade.

If there's no GIA report, the grade is questionable.

If the seller is using other than GIA reports, and claiming to have "Certified" diamonds, a red flag should go up.....

If the seller is forthcoming with information about GIA, then you may be headed in the right direction.

If the seller scoffs at GIA, RUN.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Starting price is around $10,000.

 

If this whole thread is in response to the "J-K" color princess 2 carat I sold, let me clarify, it was a K color. It was only J on paper. It was disclosed and sold as a VS2/K prior to sending out for verification, then independantly graded as a VS2/K and was a solid, accurately graded VS2/K color diamond. You said yourself you trusted the grader based on Neil's word, I don't know why you keep attacking sellers such as myself. And yes, that stone faced up much nicer then your typical K or even J. If you don't believe it, that's your perogative, not mine. You did not see the stone, period.

 

It was also sold for $8,500, not $10,000.

 

 

If there's no GIA report, the grade is questionable.

 

All diamond grades are questionable because it's both subjective and contains error. GIA is by far most consistant therefor one needs not worry so much with a GIA report vs. others. However no diamond should be purchased based on a report alone, not even a GIA report. If a seller can't look at the diamond and give an honest assessement of what it really is regardless of what the paper says, that seller is probably not the best person to do business with.

 

Regards,

Yosef

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never mentioned you Yosef, but seeing as how you responded, I guess your post does provide some example:

It was disclosed and sold as a VS2/K prior to sending out for verification, then independently graded as a VS2/K and was a solid, accurately graded VS2/K color diamond.

When we first heard of this diamond, it was described, by Yosef, as a "J-K"- this was AFTER you claim to have had it examined, and declared a K/VS2 as mentioned here.

 

If you believed it to be a K, why call it "J-K"?

In reality, this is NOT a "solid, accurately graded diamond". It's a diamond that an appraiser looked at, and gave his opinion.

 

No matter how much we respect ANY appraiser, this is NOTHING like a GIA report- much as many sellers want to try and convince people it is.

 

Regarding honest competent appraisers- whom I have nothing but respect for: It's noteworthy that you are here proclaiming that a trusted appraiser said it's K/VS- and that we can take that to the bank......

Yet, I don't see any well respected independent appraiser here making such claims. Only you, the seller.

 

 

Here's a photo of a K/VVS two and a half carat oval- as graded by Joe, my cousin.

NO NO NO.

It was graded by GIA.

250c.JPG

Edited by diamondsbylauren
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To prove ANY diamond's grade to a dealer, you'll need a GIA report

 

GIA grading is not proof, even of the things that GIA reports on like color and clarity. I like GIA, I agree that they are a fine lab and that stones are traded based on their opinions but it’s only that, an opinion. For most dealers an AGS report is equally acceptable and for diamonds below $500 or so, the cost of the report is sufficiently high in relation to the cost of the diamond that it makes little economic sense. On a 0.15ct stone, the difference between a J and a K colored stone simply doesn’t justify the money associated with a lab.

 

It could be a diamond that's been treated (the GIA report would eliminate that possibility)

 

It’s reasonably likely that a GIA graded stone was not treated before they looked at it but even that’s not guaranteed. It’s also entirely possible that it was treated after it got the GIA pedigree in order to improve the ‘look’. In particular I’ve seen this happen with laser drilling where an ugly SI2 can be significantly improved, thereby improving it’s saleability (which is the point of the treatment) but where the dealer didn’t want the footnote that they put in about lasers.

 

If there's no GIA report, the grade is questionable.

 

If there IS a GIA report the grade is still questionable.

 

So, who's to say what the grade actually is?

 

The seller is. Even if it has a GIA, AGS or some totally BS report, it’s the seller who is legally responsible for the grading. A lab report is a supplement and a support for the trust placed in the dealer, not as a replacement for it. If a customer reason not to trust the dealer, they shouldn’t do the deal, even if there are promising numbers on the report and an attractive price on the tag. I’m not disagreeing that on any significant stone there should be a lab inspection by a credible lab but the dealer cannot shirk their own responsibility in the matter and they shouldn’t even try. I, of course, haven’t seen the stone in question and even if I had I wouldn’t talk about it because of my privacy policy but it sounds like Yosef handled this well. He saw it as a K and described it as a K to his client while pointing out that it had a GIA report wherin it was described as a J. I see nothing unethical here. A K with a GIA-J report is worth more than that same K without the paperwork. Silly perhaps, but correct nonetheless.

So how much is a J/K worth?

 

We don’t know. It depends on the diamond and it depends on the deal. There’s simply not enough information here to comment.

 

Neil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First of all the appraiser was not my cousin, he was chosen by the purchaser. If your intention is to slander me I suggest you get your facts straight. Second of all this person is very highly qualified and compared the stones to a master set of GIA-graded stones. He compared it to J, K, L and then graded it a solid K. Third of all, you can attack me all you wish, but if that's the game you wish to play I can play too.

 

Do you recall selling this diamond? (attached photo)

 

It did not have a GIA report. It had an EGL-USA report. And EGL-USA said it was SI1. You said it was VS2. Now if GIA graded diamonds command so much of a premium, ESPECIALLY when the grade is OFF BY ONE FULL GRADE IN YOUR FAVOR, why not send it in for a GIA report instead?

 

Why is it that EGL-USA only seems to be able to grade your diamonds corectly or EXTRA STRICT, and not anyone elses?

 

Finally, I just want to thank you regarding the certified diamonds issue, you have given me a fantastic idea.

post-112762-1183152252_thumb.jpg

Edited by Adylon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

David, I'd like to ask you another question.

 

I sent in a diamond to get graded at 4 labs, I'm sure you remember.

http://www.adylon.com/content/articles/2007_case_study.shtml

 

I let my fiance pick it out. I put out 7 nice stones in front of her for what she felt comfortable wearing and let her choose. I had no idea what she would pick or why but I left it up to her.

 

She picked an EGL-Israel graded diamond, "SI1" clarity and "D" color as graded by that lab. She choose it she said because it had one of the highest colors and it looked very sparkly. I sent it to GIA-Carlsbad, EGL-USA (New York), and AGS. Why is it that GIA graded it a "D" color and EGL-USA and AGS graded it a "E"?

 

http://adylon.com/images/grading_reports/d...rt_EGL_2007.jpg

http://adylon.com/images/grading_reports/d...rt_GIA_2007.jpg

http://adylon.com/images/grading_reports/d...rt_AGS_2007.jpg

http://adylon.com/images/grading_reports/d...EGLUSA_2007.jpg

 

I know you don't like EGL-USA graded diamonds (even though you have no problem selling them yourself). But why did GIA and AGS disagree on the color? Why would AGS call it E and GIA call it a D? Why did EGL-USA grade stricter on this diamond then GIA? JUST LIKE the diamond you sold on ebay? You said the diamond was graded strict in ebay by EGL-USA. So is it possible this 1ct diamond was also graded strict and GIA graded it soft? Or does EGL-USA only grade your diamonds strictly and no one else?

 

 

Now I know you love to keep everyone guessing by providing zero proof to back up your claims, but I really hope you have some proof to back you up this time, because this all looks mighty fishy to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Neil, I agree 100% with what you said.

 

So, who's to say what the grade actually is?

 

The seller is. Even if it has a GIA, AGS or some totally BS report, it’s the seller who is legally responsible for the grading.

 

Exactly the point. It's the sellers responsibility to accurately disclose what the diamond actually is, and then hopefully stand behind the grading and back it up with some sort of gaurantee both buyer and seller are comfortable with.

 

Kind Regards,

Yosef

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Neil, of course the grade of a diamond is subjective.

Of course GIA makes mistakes, they are human.

But do you know of ANY serious dealer that will pay the price of, say a 2.00 D/VS1 without a GIA report to back it up?

Do you know of any dealer willing to pay the price based on your -(or any qualified appraiser's) report?

 

Sure, if it's a weak VS1, the dealer ( buyer) will try to negotiate the price downwards.

Sure there are weak VS1's- and borderline stones that might get VS1 one day, and VS2 the next. The market makes compensations for this when the dealer looks at the diamond, and the report.

 

BUT- a dealer claiming to have D/VS without a GIA report ( and get the price for it) would get laughed off the block. A dealer attempting to use the most qualified appraisers' report would also NEVER fly on a high dollar diamond

 

AGS is really a non issue.

First and foremost, you practically never see their reports on anything BUT the type of stones they are known for. I've seen exactly ONE diamond that was NOT a round ( either "Ideal" or trying to be) with an AGS report.

Plus, GIA, once they finally got around to issuing a "Cut Grade", completely "de-bunked" AGS and their whole "Ideal Cut=57% table " myth.

Regardless, my experience is that AGS is very accurate- the market WILL pay the price for an AGS graded diamond.

 

 

It could be a diamond that's been treated (the GIA report would eliminate that possibility)

 

It’s reasonably likely that a GIA graded stone was not treated before they looked at it but even that’s not guaranteed. It’s also entirely possible that it was treated after it got the GIA pedigree in order to improve the ‘look’. In particular I’ve seen this happen with laser drilling where an ugly SI2 can be significantly improved, thereby improving it’s saleability (which is the point of the treatment) but where the dealer didn’t want the footnote that they put in about lasers.

Good point Neil- A dishonest seller might be able to pass off a completely different diamond that one the GIA report referred to- much less doing things to the diamond subsequent to the GIA report.

BUT- it's part and parcel of the shoppers responsibility to find an honest seller.

I am pretty sure we'd both agree that tampering with a diamond that has a GIA report, then representing it as it was when GIA did the report is the same thing as stealing someone's money- very dishonest.

 

 

If there IS a GIA report the grade is still questionable.

All due respect Neil, but you don't feel GIA is pretty darn accurate- ESPECIALLY when compared to the "non GIA, Non AGS" alternatives?

I've looked at hundreds of thousands of diamonds grade by GIA. I've seen quite a few that I felt were one grade off in color or clarity- that's the subjective part.

But in all my years, I've seen only ONE which I considered to be two grades off. Given that diamond grading is not an exact science, GIA's record and reputation are amazing.

 

I never mentioned Yosef in my initial post, but in fact, he called the diamond J-K HERE!

If you want to defend these actions that's fine, but here's the way he described it to us.

I recently sold two 2-carat princesses in the same few days, one was H and one was a J/K, I used the opportunity to take some nice photos of both under various lighting conditions:

I can't say what the cleint was told, but he called it "J-K" right here.

 

AS far as the seller being responsible for the grade of a legitimately graded ( by GIA ) diamond, that's a bunch of hokie.

Yes, the seller is responsible for making sure to run an honest business.

BUT if a diamond could be proved to be an H ( it can't be scientifically proved) yet was sold with a GIA report calling it G, what's the seller's responsibility? Absoutely none, they have not done the slightest thing wrong.

 

 

This is worlds away from sellers using deceptive means to convince people misgraded diamonds are what they aren't.

That is the whole point of my thread. Sellers trying to convince buyers GIA means nothing- or that other documents are equivalent. Having a GIA report is extremely important on high quality diamonds- and there is no comparable document ( short of the not often seen AGS)

Do you not see this as a problem Neil?

 

 

PS- Agreed that in lower dollar diamonds- or smaller ones- the lack of GIA is not an issue- UNLESS the seller tries to convince the buyer his $2000 one carat is equivalent to a diamond GIA graded G/VS1 ( or whatever)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David, I'd like to ask you another question.

 

I sent in a diamond to get graded at 4 labs, I'm sure you remember.

http://www.adylon.com/content/articles/2007_case_study.shtml

 

I let my fiance pick it out. I put out 7 nice stones in front of her for what she felt comfortable wearing and let her choose. I had no idea what she would pick or why but I left it up to her.

 

She picked an EGL-Israel graded diamond, "SI1" clarity and "D" color as graded by that lab. She choose it she said because it had one of the highest colors and it looked very sparkly. I sent it to GIA-Carlsbad, EGL-USA (New York), and AGS. Why is it that GIA graded it a "D" color and EGL-USA and AGS graded it a "E"?

 

http://adylon.com/images/grading_reports/d...rt_EGL_2007.jpg

http://adylon.com/images/grading_reports/d...rt_GIA_2007.jpg

http://adylon.com/images/grading_reports/d...rt_AGS_2007.jpg

http://adylon.com/images/grading_reports/d...EGLUSA_2007.jpg

 

I know you don't like EGL-USA graded diamonds (even though you have no problem selling them yourself). But why did GIA and AGS disagree on the color? Why would AGS call it E and GIA call it a D? Why did EGL-USA grade stricter on this diamond then GIA? JUST LIKE the diamond you sold on ebay? You said the diamond was graded strict in ebay by EGL-USA. So is it possible this 1ct diamond was also graded strict and GIA graded it soft? Or does EGL-USA only grade your diamonds strictly and no one else?

 

 

Now I know you love to keep everyone guessing by providing zero proof to back up your claims, but I really hope you have some proof to back you up this time, because this all looks mighty fishy to me.

 

Yosef, the size of your "study" renders it completely useless.

Sending one diamond to 4 labs proves exactly nothing.

The fact your fiance picked a stone,also, means nothing ( I mean congrats to her, I hope she loves it!) but for the purposes of proving anything, it's a meaningless fact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How much is a J-K? worth?

 

The answer is a bit more complex than just repeating the mantra GIA, GIA, GIA.

 

Color and clarity are but two variables. Even more important is the Cut Quality of the diamond not always readily apparent just from the lab report. The better the Cut Quality of the diamond, the greater premium it will bring.

 

Clarity, when it is in the SI and lower range is also a critical factor. Not all SI's are created equal. Some face up better than others.

 

Bottom line is is this: Work with a reputable vendor and check the diamond out carefully, even if it has a GIA report

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David you need to learn something. There is no such thing as a definitive J color diamond. There is no such thing as a definitive K color diamond. Everything is an opinion, based on a comparison, of another opinion, and so on and so forth. Some opinions can be taken to the bank, others are highly suspect.

 

EGL-USA's opinion was J.

My opinion was a K --- and this is what was disclosed to the customer.

Appraiser's opinion was a K.

 

Therefor this is a "J/K" diamond. 3 opinions, 1 lab report, 1 appraisal, one gaurantee. Take your pick, call it whatever you want, I really don't care. I stand behind my grade of K which was fantastic face up stone and gaurantee it 100%, and I fully disclose all opinions to my clients and let them make an educated purchase.

 

Just like the diamond my fiance chose is a D/E color. 2 labs call it "D". 2 labs call it "E". I personally think it's more of a D. But I call it a "D/E", because out of those 5 opinions (mine + 4 grading reports), there is no consensus, and there is no such thing as "100% D" or "100% E" anyways. It's all subjective opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding the ONE diamond on our site that has an EGL report ( at least the one with an EGL report that we admit)

 

Here it is!

http://cgi.ebay.com/51-Asscher-Diamond-F-S...oQQcmdZViewItem

 

Here's what I wrote about the lab report:

It's a beautiful cut, and a great quality. F is as white as white can be. This SI1 is eye clean. I'm surprised Sam did no go ballistic on EGL when they overgraded this stone. They have a rep for being lenient- this time they tried to be too strict- It looks like a VS2 to me. The original EGL report will accompany the diamond.

So, here I am letting potential shoppers know that the diamond industry regards EGL as lenient.

This combined with my often stated opinions about Gem labs makes my position pretty clear.

We have other diamonds that have been to the EGL- we simply throw away those reports- as I should have done on the F/SI1.

Maybe that's why it has not sold......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The mantra is NOT GIA GIA GIA- as there are plenty of ugly diamonds with GIA reports.

The mantra is, make sure you deal with an honest, knowledgeable seller.

I have seen too many instances of sellers attempting to use deceptive means to assure the grade of a diamond. Flushing out deceptive practices is one really good way for consumers to decide which dealers are honest and knowledgable.

 

Barry- are you offering diamonds with EGL reports on your site?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yosef, the size of your "study" renders it completely useless.

Sending one diamond to 4 labs proves exactly nothing.

David the study is of 1 single diamond. It proves nothing on some grand scale saying "GIA grades are on average 1.20932498 grades stricter then EGL" or something that is definitive. But it does show how 4 labs can disagree on one stone, that's all it's intended purpose. To show that diamond grading is subjective. Point was proven beautifully if I may say so myself.

 

The fact your fiance picked a stone,also, means nothing ( I mean congrats to her, I hope she loves it!) but for the purposes of proving anything, it's a meaningless fact.

 

She is no GIA gemologist but I would hardly call her opinion meaningless. According to you, people comparing diamonds side by side are useless. Independant appraisers are useless. Honest sellers who stand behind their grades without GIA reports are useless.

 

David, only in your world, does your opinion and that of GIA matter paramount and everyone else's opinion is useless.

 

 

Regards,

Yosef

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed. Labs can issue different grades on a single stone.

GIA can issue two different grades on two different days.

No need to do a single stone "study" to prove what we already know.

 

Of course it's noit meaningless to your fiance that she picked a particular diamond- again, congratulations!

But using that fact to say the diamond was somehow "better" is not meaningful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes. EGL-USA said it was J. I thought it was more of a K, but faced up very white considering the tint, this is because it was a very well made diamond, not deep at all and well cut and so this is what I told my customer. For the price it was a steal, so he jumped on it considering I thought highly of it and the price was very competitive even for a GIA VS2/K. The indepandant appraiser agreed and so he is very happy.

 

David, my point on the opinions is nothing is meaningless. Sure a GIA grading report is 1000x as important as my fiance's eye-ball opinion. But her opinion still counts for SOMETHING all be it very small. EGL-USA's opinion still counts a great deal although not as much as GIA's. You see where I'm going with this? You shouldn't be so quick to throw out everyone's opinion but yours and that of the GIA. Everyone's opinion counts, how much so is a matter of reputation, consistency, etc.

 

Regards,

Yosef

Edited by Adylon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yosef, I'm really NOT trying to pick a fight with you- which is why I created a new thread, instead of going on with the old one. I never mentioned you.

 

Yes, we disagree, but I'm sure you do things right by your clients.

 

I am passionate about this, having spent most of my time since 1976 being involved in the diamond biz.

The Internet has made it far easier to critique the way people are selling.

 

A guy walks into a jewelry store, who knows what the seller is saying?

 

But on the web, accuracy- or lack thereof- becomes far more noticeable.

 

When I look around, I've noticed too many sellers using non GIA reports to misrepresent diamonds. It's very easy for me to spot when something's not on the up and up.

Again- I'm sure you give people what you promise them- but there's a lot of sellers that don't.

 

 

I will only consider GIA- yes that's my opinion. Every diamond dealer/cutter I've ever met felt the same way.

 

No question EGL-USA is a good lab. Next to GIA ( and AGS) they're number 3 IMO.

 

But if I'm going to put out the dough for a Fancy Intense Yellow- I'm ONLY interested in number 1- there's so much money at stake.

 

All the best.

Edited by diamondsbylauren
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yosef, I'm really NOT trying to pick a fight with you- which is why I created a new thread, instead of going on with the old one. I never mentioned you.

2ct J/K princess is awfully specific don't you think? :D I don't want to fight with you either.

 

 

But if I'm going to put out the dough for a Fancy Intense Yellow- I'm ONLY interested in number 1- there's so much money at stake.

 

 

You said yourself you buy EGL diamonds sometimes and discard the paper, you obviously discovered something that made it worth your while even though the dealer could have sent it to be graded by GIA and maybe got a better grade it wasn't worth his time but it was worth yours.

 

Of course, if you're buying a 1/2ct fancy intense yellow... a 1ct VVS/D, a 5ct anything.... 1 grade can mean thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. But for the majority of diamonds people buy in the real world you can find good deals every once in a while in non-GIA goods. I'm sure 50% or more of the EGL goods out there are sold under false pretenses, but there are some that are accurately graded, or some that are accurately disclosed from honest sellers too. Just don't prejudge all by the wrong doings of a few.

 

Kind Regards,

Yosef

Edited by Adylon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sure 50% or more of the EGL goods out there are sold under false pretenses, but there are some that are accurately graded, or some that are accurately disclosed from honest sellers too. Just don't prejudge all by the wrong doings of a few.

 

Kind Regards,

Yosef

 

Thank you.

In your opinion, is the percantage as high on sellers selling diamonds with GIA reports?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you.

In your opinion, is the percantage as high on sellers selling diamonds with GIA reports?

 

No of course not. But I also know some dealers who have outdated stones with GIA reports and no cut grade for example pushing their diamonds as "ideal cut" for a round with 65% depth or something, there is always going to be those who exploit and abuse any system. But the large majority of GIA goods are very accurately graded, yes. And for the most part most dealers who sell them are very honest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Plus, GIA, once they finally got around to issuing a "Cut Grade", completely "de-bunked" AGS and their whole "Ideal Cut=57% table " myth. Regardless, my experience is that AGS is very accurate- the market WILL pay the price for an AGS graded diamond.

 

Well that's not actually true David. In the new GIA system table sizes 55% and 56% have the most crown/pavilion combos possible to earn the EX grade; 57 combinations apiece (and a 57% table has 53 combinations for EX). A 60% table has only 41 possibilities for EX and a 61% table falls to only 26. I admire beautiful 60/60s as well, but feel I should de-bunk your de-bunking. :D

 

You'll be glad to know the new AGS system is more liberal than the old. They now allow tables up to 62% to earn Ideal, depending on overall configuration. Both this and the concentration of top grades in the 55-57% table range are in harmony with GIA's new system.

 

As you said, the diamonds sent to AGSL are ones manufacturers know are going to do well in their 'niche' (strict) metric. For example, they accept OEC and EMC diamonds for grading, but I've never seen such a cut accompanied by an AGS report, whereas GIA is a global standard for any shape.

Edited by JohnQuixote
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But do you know of ANY serious dealer that will pay the price of, say a 2.00 D/VS1 without a GIA report to back it up?

Do you know of any dealer willing to pay the price based on your -(or any qualified appraiser's) report?

 

I provide buying advice to dealers who are themselves experts fairly regularly so in that sense, yes, dealers buy diamonds based on my opinions quite routinely. It provides a second set of eyes where the opinion isn’t colored by the outcome and it provides a well standardized viewing environment and my lab is well equipped with tools that not everyone has. It’s a classic problem that scientists solve with ‘double blind’ studies. When a dealer comes in with a diamond and hires me for a grading opinion I neither know nor care who is the buyer and who is the seller. If there’s a bunch of money or an important customer at stake, it’s easy to find your judgment colored one direction or the other. Mind you they don’t always act on my advice, but they always seem to value the additional data. Consumers generally have a very different problem. They are not usually themselves experts and they are at a significant competitive disadvantage.

 

No dealer that I know of would buy a 2ct D/VS1 based SOLEY on a GIA report. They simply MUST see the stone and/or show it to their trusted advisers. It's always important to understand the grading source and to ask yourself why that particular source was chosen. GIA gets selected for consistency of grading an market acceptance, AGS gets chosen for their excellent cut grading system, EGL-Israel gets chosen for their lenient grading, etc. In the case of dealers, I usually get chosen because I'm fast and convenient. Consumers usually seem to choose me because I'm thorough and customer friendly (and fast and convenient).

 

Neil

Edited by denverappraiser
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We agree Neil, no successful dealers buy expensive diamonds based solely on a GIA report- they depend on visual inspection.

 

I can remember a few times when I was selling diamonds on the road when a store owner not familiar with diamonds would have a third party there- but this was pretty rare.

Ive never seen NY dealers use an independent third party when buying.

 

I do not doubt your word that dealers use you though.....maybe it's different with dealers in Denver. Maybe you're talking about really important ( million dollar) diamonds.

Maybe you meant a retail jeweler that's not as familiar with diamonds as a dedicated diamond dealer.

Would you say that dealers asking your opinion make up a large percentage of your work?

 

I have not found someone in NYC that has your breath of knowledge calling himself an appraiser.

In all fairness, I never looked. I have had a less than great experience locally when brought by a cleient to an appraiser.

Edited by diamondsbylauren
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Plus, GIA, once they finally got around to issuing a "Cut Grade", completely "de-bunked" AGS and their whole "Ideal Cut=57% table " myth. Regardless, my experience is that AGS is very accurate- the market WILL pay the price for an AGS graded diamond.

 

Well that's not actually true David. In the new GIA system table sizes 55% and 56% have the most crown/pavilion combos possible to earn the EX grade; 57 combinations apiece (and a 57% table has 53 combinations for EX). A 60% table has only 41 possibilities for EX and a 61% table falls to only 26. I admire beautiful 60/60s as well, but feel I should de-bunk your de-bunking. :D

 

You'll be glad to know the new AGS system is more liberal than the old. They now allow tables up to 62% to earn Ideal, depending on overall configuration. Both this and the concentration of top grades in the 55-57% table range are in harmony with GIA's new system.

 

As you said, the diamonds sent to AGSL are ones manufacturers know are going to do well in their 'niche' (strict) metric. For example, they accept OEC and EMC diamonds for grading, but I've never seen such a cut accompanied by an AGS report, whereas GIA is a global standard for any shape.

 

Hi John!

Glad to see I've got everyone's attention!

 

John, my point about "Ideal" diamonds is NOT that a 57% table on a well cut diamond isn't beautiful.

My point is that prior to 2006, the"Ideal Cut" promoters were using the title to convince people that 57% was somehow better- therefore more expensive- than a well cut 60/60.

THAT'S the myth I'm talking about.

The fact that more combinations of 57% make "ideal" makes no difference to any particular individually well cut 60/60 diamond. If GIA gave it EX, it's now an EX ( as considered by GIA)

I have to admit that AGS's prejudice against 60/60 prior to 2006 have left me feeling that AGS simply moved the bar once the real authority spoke.

 

 

It also makes me skeptical of the term "Ideal" in general.

I know there's a lot of legitimate sellers who know what the term is supposed to mean, and honor it- but this is another area where abuses are extremely common.

 

 

What I mean to say is: There's a lot of sellers calling diamonds "Ideal" based on nothing but their desire to separate the buyer from their money easier......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
  • Create New...