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Highest Acceptable Flourescence Level??


walkerba
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I am buying a diamond for an engagement ring and noticed that the flourescence of a stone drastically effects the price. Would someone be kind enough to tell me what is the highest level of flourescence that I should be willing to accept? It would be nice to get a ring with no flourescence but I've noticed that a stone with medium flourescence is cheaper. I am trying to find the happy balance without losing quality. If you can offer advice, please advise. ;)

 

Thanks alot,

 

Brock

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Hi Brock;

 

We have sold and sell medium to strong fluorescent diamonds that are drop-dead gorgeous and are not discounted.

 

Fluorescence has gotten an undeserved bad rap, originally promulgated by ignorant tradespeople who thereby discounted their fluorescent diamonds and this canard was/has been, unfortunately further perpetuated by unsuspecting consumers.

 

Fluorescence as a negative in the face up transparency of a diamond ( imparting a hazy, oily, or milky appearance) exists in less than 1/2 of 1 per cent of all polished diamonds.

 

Years ago, I remember that working with my Dad, before diamonds were sold almost exclusively based on "paper" lab reports, fluorescent diamonds were known as 'blue-white' and were very much sought after by both Tradespeople and consumers and fetched Premium prices.

 

So, you ask: Why? What happened?

 

GIA back in 1997 did the most comprehensive and definitive study on the effects of fluorescence on diamond transparency and their results will really surprise you!

 

A MUST READ! The link is here:

 

http://www.gia.edu/pdfs/W97_fluoresce.pdf

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Even after reading what Barry wrote I still think that no one should buy a diamond that has strong fluorescence, even though on some stones you just can't see the different - for one reason, that is if you want to sell your diamond it will be much harder to sell and you will receive much less then it's worth.

 

Moshe

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Thanks for all of the input. I have ruled out buying a stone that has "Strong flourescence" but do you think it might be a better buy value wise to purchase a stone with say "medium flourescence" instead of stone that has "no flourescence?" I dont want to sacrifice quality if its going to take away from the brilliance of the stone, etc. but I dont want to pay 20% more for a stone just because it has "no flourescence" compared to "medium flourescence" if it wont make a difference in how the color, clarity, sparkle, etc. of the diamond looks. Please let me know what you think. Again, thanks for all of the replies. I really appreciate all of your input.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Brock

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Strong fluorescence is a clue that it requires further investigation and that there are certain stones where it’s a problem but I’m with Barry that it’s not a deal killer in and of itself. The fact that it drives the price down without affecting the beauty of the stone is, for most people, a feature not a problem. Unless there is a non-gemological reason for the objection medium or less has no affect on the either the beauty or even the price.

 

I agree that strong fluoro impacts the resale potential of the stone for exactly the same reasons that it’s affecting your decision now but if resale is a serious concern, you should reconsider buying a diamond at all. Consumers reselling diamonds is a major problem anyway.

 

Neil

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Even after reading what Barry wrote I still think that no one should buy a diamond that has strong fluorescence, even though on some stones you just can't see the different - for one reason, that is if you want to sell your diamond it will be much harder to sell and you will receive much less then it's worth.

 

Moshe

i agree with you. i'm against buying strong fluorescence diamonds. i'm very particular about this issue. usually, i'll buy diamonds with "none fluorescence". :)

 

frankly speaking, diamonds don't worth so much if you plan to sell them next time. but when you buy them, they're very expensive! ;)

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I hear you. Thank for the info and snd sorry I didnt say so before but thank you Barry, for the article, that really helped out alot. All of your input will make things alot clearer for me

;)

Brock

 

 

 

 

 

Strong fluorescence is a clue that it requires further investigation and that there are certain stones where it’s a problem but I’m with Barry that it’s not a deal killer in and of itself. The fact that it drives the price down without affecting the beauty of the stone is, for most people, a feature not a problem. Unless there is a non-gemological reason for the objection medium or less has no affect on the either the beauty or even the price.

 

I agree that strong fluoro impacts the resale potential of the stone for exactly the same reasons that it’s affecting your decision now but if resale is a serious concern, you should reconsider buying a diamond at all. Consumers reselling diamonds is a major problem anyway.

 

Neil

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How big or rare of a diamond are we talking here? If you're concerned about resale value and the diamond is a 5ct VVS2/D that's a legitimate concern... if it's a 0.75ct SI1/F then that's a totally different story. Diamonds make very poor investments anyways, except for the big/rare stones or unless you're a jeweler. ;)

 

Thank you Barry for the article, I hadn't read it before.

 

Kind Regards,

Yosef

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Yosef, I am looking to buy something that is 1.7-1.8 carats. If you have advice about what I should consider acceptable clarity and color for that size stone, please let me know. I have looked at several stones, was working with a local jeweler here but I dont think that the bulk of his business is in Diamonds. Plus his prices seem alot higher that what is available on the internet. He had some EGL cert stones, 1-2 GIA stones, but I looked at an EGL stone he had yesterday and it scared me. It was 1.7carats, H colored, SI1, ideal cut, and one of the first things I noticed was that it looked a little yellow. I dont want to pay more to have say an E over an F if it doesnt make a difference, (or even a G for that matter,) but again, that experience kind of scared me a little bit. Hopefully it looked yellow just because it was EGL certified and maybe a couple color grades off. If you have any other advice, just let me know.

 

Thanks alot,

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If it looked obviously yellow to your eyes, much more so then other graded stones chances are the color grade is off, yes. EGL Israel/International vs. EGL USA are 2 completely different labs. Do you know which one the stone you saw was? Personally if I was a consumer even with average to above average education on diamonds, I would never purchase an EGL-Int'l stone.

 

If you're looking to get a 1.7ct/H/SI1 type stone then fluorescence in my opinion really doesn't affect price, and infact it may be a positive because of the blue offsetting a little of the yellow H color.

 

If you want an ideal cut stone I'd stick with GIA excellent cut or AGS-excellent/ideal. If you want super-ideal (AGS-000 quality) there are brands online such as SuperbCert or A Cut Above and branded diamonds in stores such as Hearts on Fire or Lazare that specialize in these type of stones, but of course they carry a premium.

 

Kind Regards,

Yosef

 

 

 

Yosef, I am looking to buy something that is 1.7-1.8 carats. If you have advice about what I should consider acceptable clarity and color for that size stone, please let me know. I have looked at several stones, was working with a local jeweler here but I dont think that the bulk of his business is in Diamonds. Plus his prices seem alot higher that what is available on the internet. He had some EGL cert stones, 1-2 GIA stones, but I looked at an EGL stone he had yesterday and it scared me. It was 1.7carats, H colored, SI1, ideal cut, and one of the first things I noticed was that it looked a little yellow. I dont want to pay more to have say an E over an F if it doesnt make a difference, (or even a G for that matter,) but again, that experience kind of scared me a little bit. Hopefully it looked yellow just because it was EGL certified and maybe a couple color grades off. If you have any other advice, just let me know.

 

Thanks alot,

Edited by Adylon
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Thanks Yosef, I didnt want an H colored stone (G was my limit) but the jeweler had told me he found this stone, that it was priced right and that it was ideal cut, so he thought it would look alot more white because of that. I figured I would look at it. I am not going to deal with this guy though. He might be more interested in selling me what he has, than helping me make an educated purchase. Plus I am not that worried about buying online anymore as long as a company has a good return policy.

 

My thoughts were that a G colored stone would be the best value, seeing that H colored EGL stone again scared me into thinking that I should get something of at least F color but maybe a GIA cert stone of G color wont look much different than E or F? What do you think?

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I like the high color diamonds personally, D-G, but it's all personal preference. An accurately graded G should still look very white. H color can also look nice and white if the stone is cut well. Not all "G" or "H" colors look the same under various lighting conditions, cut proportions, etc, etc. This is something you need to put a pair of eyes on and inspect, and not all diamonds are accurately graded either as you've found out.

 

If you want a BRIGHT WHITE stone I'd stick with a G+ color, if you're trying to stretch your budget consider a well made H.

 

Kind Regards,

Yosef

Edited by Adylon
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Hi All!

I cringe when I hear a seller advise someone- "Don't look at anything below G, it's tinted junk"- or other disparaging remarks about J-K-L-M color diamonds.

It's like walking into a car dealer , and having them advise- "Don;t consider anything below a Mercedes- you don;t want one of them junky Fords"

 

Sure, there are buyers who see an H as a tinted diamond, but why assume that others will feel this way?

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Not everyone wants a J/K color, I don't want to argue with you but the poster originally said they wanted a bright white stone and that a slightly tinted yellow was unacceptable.

 

I recently sold two 2-carat princesses in the same few days, one was H and one was a J/K, I used the opportunity to take some nice photos of both under various lighting conditions:

http://www.adylon.com/content/articles/dif...e_between.shtml

(in case the attachments don't work).

 

The first customer was delighted with the J/K color, it was a great deal in his budget and he didn't care about the slight tint. The other customer would never have accepted the stone, he wanted the "whitest" diamond in his price range, and what I got him was an H. Two different customers, two different expectations and two completely different price ranges, and two very happy customers.

 

A tinted stone can be very nice and also can be purchased for a very attractive price but it's not everyone's preference.

 

PS, no where in my post did I say anything less then a G is junk, please re-read or advise.

 

Kind Regards,

Yosef

post-112762-1182917592_thumb.jpg

post-112762-1182917598_thumb.jpg

post-112762-1182917603_thumb.jpg

Edited by Adylon
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NO arguement at all- we agree.

If someone is sensative to to a slight tint, don;t show them a J color.

But in all fairness, you mentioned the diamond on the left is "J/K"- which indicates there's no GIA report. All due respect, if it IS a J/K, it faces like an M.

 

Here's a few pictures of a diamond we had a while back.

GIA graded this one K/VS1

201kvs1a.JPG

201kvs1c.JPG

201kvs1d.JPG

It really did not show nearly as much tint as the tinted diamond you've shown. Cut really matters- as does accurate grading.

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David, With all due respect to you as well, it was seen by 3 sets of professional eyes, and all 3 agreed it was either a J or a K color. EGL-USA LA said it was a J. Once I saw it I told my customer it was a K but faced up very white because it was a well made stone, which was correct. This was also confirmed when he had it independantly appraised by Mr. Paul Thompson who is a very reputable GIA certified appraiser here in Hollywood, CA. Paul was chosen and paid directly by the client and worked on his behalf, not mine and used GIA certified master stones to compare with when the diamond was loose, so there was no question on the color. He even commented as well that it faced up very white when mounted. He appraised both loose and set.

 

I also do my photography in a very bright white lightbooth because it helps to get a pure white background which is nice for web development purposes. All colors show much more in there then it would in normal lighting conditions. Your pictures seem to be in a black background or something, I don't know what your photo shooting conditions are or what camera you use, etc. But of course these things can vary significantly, that's why I used the 2 stones together in the same frame to show the difference, not the absolute color of each independantly which is something impossible to capture in a photograph and even more impossible to render equal on everyone's computer screen.

 

Regards,

Yosef

Edited by Adylon
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All due respect Yosef, but saying people looked at it and called it a K? That's really meaningless.

 

Based on the photos you yourself posted, the diamond does NOT face up white.

It looks way more tinted than well cut K's I've seen- such as the one I posted. The photos I posted looked just like the diamond. As I suspect yours do.

Again- calling any diamond a particular grade, without a GIA report , and using it to make a point is misleading- who can say what GIA would have called your diamond?

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David, GIA is not absolute. They are humans. Humans error. Also no 2 diamonds are exactly identical therefor absolute grades have inherent round-off error, so there are always 2 layers of error even when sent to GIA, it's just part of the process of grading a diamond. Granted they get it right more then any other lab but no grading is absolute, not even GIA.

 

Furthermore you can't grade diamonds by looking at still images that goes through so many variables. Lighting? In-Camera Image Processing? Screen Rendering? Screen Brightness/Contrast, etc? There's no way you can tell me you can grade diamonds by looking at a digital picture. If you could then the GIA would be out business, no need to ship diamonds anymore.

 

Lastly as I mentioned, the stone faces up much whiter in real lighting conditions, not when it's surrounded by bright diffuse light in a white photobooth. The H color was bright white but color was still evident in that stone as well when placed in the photobooth, The photobooth shows all colors, even two tone gold jewelry looks very white and very yellow which you almost never see when wearing everyday. Your pictures show a lot of black, even on the tweezers you can see the front/top are bright and the rear/bottom are dark meaning there is a shadow being cast and no light is being passed through the diamond from the rear. The "J/K" diamond was said to be face up white for a stone of that color grade by the appraiser who was hired/paid by the purchaser, not I. If you won't take my word for it call him yourself. Just google "Paul Thompson Appraiser" and give him a call, he's an old school GIA gemologist, also a "master gemologist appraiser", accredited senior appraiser", etc, etc. and is more then qualified to compare 1 diamond with another GIA master color stone to determine an accurate color grade.

 

Just to clarify with my photos, one picture shows very bright diffuse light only... the other shows some diffuse and some direct light, and the other has lots of direct light only. I suspect yours is direct light only as well, but not in a white photobooth., and not with light coming from all directions which of course makes it much harder to capture the color. If you look at the first (darkest) photo, that's the one with the direct light only, and the color difference is much less then the other 2 photos. And that's still when it's in a white photobooth with ambient diffuse light. If you took your photos in bright diffuse light rather then direct light, it would look much different. I'd be happy to photograph your diamonds if you like with my camera under my lighting conditions, no charge, you can even use my Fedex account ;)

 

Kind Regards,

Yosef

Edited by Adylon
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yosef, we've sold many thousands of diamonds based on my photos- people say they look like the diamonds. OUr K color 2 carat looked just like the photo- the person who bought it based on these photos also felt the same way.

You can cry all you want about GIA being human, but they are the last authority. Having looked at tens of thousands of GIA graded diamonds ( as well as other labs) my experience is that GIA is accurate- as opposed to ANY other lab ( other than AGS). I agreed with the K grade on the princess I posted.

 

To keep a level playing field, for the purposes of a conversation like this, only GIA grading should be used.

All due respect to your friends who graded your diamond, but third party grading is worthless.

 

PS- we have a lot more GIA graded K color diamonds that face up white- Free FedEx if you'd like one!

Edited by diamondsbylauren
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