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Both A Sarin 1 And Gia Very Good?


newtorocks
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Hi all. I first wanted to thank all the knowledgable people that make this forum a success. The amount I have learned in the last couple weeks is unbelievable.

 

The search for the best quality engagement ring at the best value has been on for quite some time. I am fairly certain I will buy from a reputable local jeweler (and after several times meeting with my jeweler I do feel he knows what he is talking about and would not steer me wrong).

 

That being said, I have a question about the diamond I am currently set on. It is 1.51 ct, I, SI1 with a GIA cut grade of very good and symmetry and polish of very good. The Sarin report is a 1, with the one thing keeping it from 0 being .1 too high on crown angle. My question is how can the GIA cut grade be only very good when the Sarin shows it as being almost 0? The jeweler said GIA will not give a cut grade of Excellent unless either one of symmetry or polish is graded excellent.

 

Although I am no expert, it is a good looking diamond. I could not distinguish a color difference between this I and a similar H, and from what i can tell is "eye clean." I viewed it under a microsope and there were only a couple clusters of pinpoints.

 

My jeweler is telling me I have found a good value (almost an ideal cut stone, sacrificing some indestinguishable characteristics (color, clarity) but of a nice size. In expressing my concern about cut he recommended I NOT spend an extra $1K to get an excellent cut grade because i would not be able to tell the difference between that one and this one!

 

I understand cut ends up being very subjective, and I do find that this stone has nice brilliance. I suppose I am just looking for a little advice and perhaps maybe a little independent reassurance after hearing all the horror stories about how bad it is to trust the person selling you the ring.

Edited by newtorocks
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Hi NTR,

 

GIA will give a cut grade of Excellent to diamonds with VG polish and symmetry. This is logical, since there is no visible difference between VG and EX. GIA's proportions system is wider than the one that's programmed into Sarin's software (particularly on the deep side) so it's curious the diamond received VG, unless it's shallower than the Sarin likes. Can you give the measurements from both the Sarin and the GIA report?

 

If you like, you can go to this link and enter the data from the GIA report yourself: http://www.facetware.gia.edu/

 

If Facetware gives it a cut grade of EX your VG may have to do with brillianteering, though that's pretty rare and not always problematic. If that's the case the comment "cut grade is based on brillianteering of the half-facets" would be on your report.

 

If you have the GIA report number and carat weight one of us can go to GIA report check, retrieve your diamond's profile and perhaps provide more insight.

 

Having said all this, you said you trust the jeweler and the diamond has great brilliance. Those are more important than a digit on a printed page. Nevertheless, "trust but verify" is always prudent. :)

Edited by JohnQuixote
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It appears your jeweler is giving you good advice and your eyes corroborate that.

 

The difference between a GIA VG to GIA EX Cut Grade may hinge on a variety of combined factors such as Polish, Symmetry, and the facet angle and positioning of the 40 minor facets such as the Star, upper and lower girdle facets, and may not be readily cognizant to the untrained eye.

 

It sounds as if you have found a great looking diamond at a great price.

 

Enjoy it!

post-5339-1168522935_thumb.jpg

Edited by barry
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My jeweler is telling me I have found a good value (almost an ideal cut stone, sacrificing some indestinguishable characteristics (color, clarity) but of a nice size. In expressing my concern about cut he recommended I NOT spend an extra $1K to get an excellent cut grade because i would not be able to tell the difference between that one and this one!

 

This is what I like to look for in a diamond. There are beautiful diamonds in lower color and clarity grades but people are afraid of them until they see one that looks good. It's not something you can find sight unseen however. But it sounds like you've found one of these "gems" and a good dealer at that.

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There are some awsome Very Goods out there. My J color master is an AGS-0/GIA-VG that is just lovely. I regularly show it to people alongside the same size G master (AGS-2, nothing from GIA but probably also a VG) and my H (AGS-1, GIA excellent) and ask them what they like better. They consistently choose the J.

 

I’m with the above, it sounds like you’ve found a good dealer and you’ve found a good stone. It’s time to write make the deal. If you’re in doubt, show it to an independent appraiser who can actually see the stone and ask them your questions about what the jeweler has and hasn’t told you about the stone. An appraisal fee goes a long way to resolving those nagging doubts.

 

Neil

Edited by denverappraiser
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OK, I have the GIA and Sarin reports. The GIA number is 15174774. Results from the Sarin report is as follows:

 

 

Diamter 7.30 (7.28 7.32)

Total Depth 4.53 62.1%

Crown Angle 35.9* 1

Pavil Angle 40.6* 42.5% 0

Table mm 4.17 57.1 0

Cutlet .7% 0

Girdle Thick % 2.7-3.2 0

 

Results from the GIA:

 

Table size 57%

Crown angle 35.5

Pavilion angle 40.6

Star % --- 55

Lower half 80%

Girdle - slightly thick to thick (faceted)

Cutlet size none

Polish Very good

Symmetry very good

Total depth 62.3

 

What does everyone think now that they have the numbers? Hopefully the GIA number allows you to reference the information because I cannot attatch it. I suppose whether or not it is a good value depends on the price. What do you think this diamond should cost? I realize I may pay a premium for going B&M. I'll post my price after I try a little negotiating...

Edited by newtorocks
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OK, I have the GIA and Sarin reports. The GIA number is 15174774. Results from the Sarin report is as follows:

 

 

Diamter 7.30 (7.28 7.32)

Total Depth 4.53 62.1%

Crown Angle 35.9* 1

Pavil Angle 40.6* 42.5% 0

Table mm 4.17 57.1 0

Cutlet .7% 0

Girdle Thick % 2.7-3.2 0

 

Results from the GIA:

 

Table size 67%

Crown angle 35.5

Pavilion angle 40.6

Star % --- 55

Lower half 80%

Girdle - slightly thick to thick (faceted)

Cutlet size none

Polish Very good

Symmetry very good

Total depth 62.3

 

What does everyone think now that they have the numbers? Hopefully the GIA number allows you to reference the information because I cannot attatch it. I suppose whether or not it is a good value depends on the price. What do you think this diamond should cost? I realize I may pay a premium for going B&M. I'll post my price after I try a little negotiating...

 

Thanks. That solves the mystery. The difference between a VG and EX cut grade with this diamond is a very slight matter of girdle thickness… See the FW graphics below (I added green arrows):

 

* Diamond 1 receives VG with your numbers. I ran it with EX/EX in polish and symmetry and the cut grade is still VG.

 

* Diamond 2 becomes EX with a tiny downward girdle adjustment - stk instead of stk-tk - which causes the depth to be 62.1 instead of 62.3%.

 

This is no big deal. We see it happen at both sides of the girdle range. It’s a difference of microns, but GIA’s system draws a hard line.

 

A couple of clean-up items:

 

1. I assume the 67 table above (GIA) was a typo since report check & Sarin both give 57.

 

2. As you mentioned, the Sarin reported a high crown angle (35.9). This was flagged by Sarin but don’t worry about it, as it’s incongruent with the lab report. GIA would have reported a 40.0 crown angle and > crown height if that was the case. These non-contact scanning devices don’t always give identical readings. In any event, GIA’s measurements are considered the ‘numbers of authority.’

 

I agree with my colleagues. It sounds like a dynamite diamond and you’ve confirmed it as a great performer. As for the paper, it has a foot in the door of EX…and there are many VG diamonds which people consider every bit as good.

 

You can view diamonds of similar pedigree on the ‘net and gauge pricing. As you say, a nice one ‘in the hand’ and a jeweler you have a relationship with do count for something. It sounds like you have a promising situation.

post-111809-1168578624_thumb.jpg

Edited by JohnQuixote
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Hi New to,

Anyone who's telling you they can assess a diamond based soley on numbers is misleading you.

It's convenient for sellers that don't posses the diamonds they sell to convince folks they can tell if it's a good diamond based only on numbers ( Sarin, GIA, etc..)- in fact, they can not.

Visual examination is the ONLY way for an expert to assess the cut of a diamond, and it's value.

 

The diamond you're looking at, a 1.51 I/SI1 with GIA report seems fairly priced at $9950 from a walk in jewelry store.

Since you can actually see the diamond, I'd advise putting numbers aside.

Don't buy by the numbers.....Use your eyes and heart.

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Hi New to,

Anyone who's telling you they can assess a diamond based soley on numbers is misleading you.

It's convenient for sellers that don't posses the diamonds they sell to convince folks they can tell if it's a good diamond based only on numbers ( Sarin, GIA, etc..)- in fact, they can not.

Visual examination is the ONLY way for an expert to assess the cut of a diamond, and it's value.

 

The diamond you're looking at, a 1.51 I/SI1 with GIA report seems fairly priced at $9950 from a walk in jewelry store.

Since you can actually see the diamond, I'd advise putting numbers aside.

Don't buy by the numbers.....Use your eyes and heart.

 

David,

 

I don't think anyone is telling him they can assess the stone based on numbers; he's dealing with a jeweler who has the diamond live.

 

...Now SURELY you don't think I was saying that? B) If you did, please read the first post where our supplicant asked why Sarin, GIA and cut grade explanations by the jeweler didn't jive. As he requested, I explained the discrepancies. I also defended the diamond and said more than once that his live assessment trumps le numbers. I went to some length to answer the technical query while assuring NTR that he's got a promising diamond in hand. (David, if I have wrongly accused you of accusing me, I recuse myself).

 

Either way, keep your sweet ride out of the cold weather this week (as will I) ;)

 

NTR,

 

You can find GIA graded diamonds of that class & category listed above and below that price. It sounds like a fair deal.

Edited by JohnQuixote
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Hi John,

I do feel that there's a lot of sellers ( not pointing fingers at anyone in particular) that want to promote the idea that the stats on a GIA report ( or a Sarin) provide definitive answers.

They don't- plain and simple.

 

 

Neil's example is a good one.

Show people "triple zero" diamonds next to diaomnds with a GIA VG cut grade will show many people pick the diamond which, "by the numbers" might not be the prettiest.

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Hi John,

I do feel that there's a lot of sellers ( not pointing fingers at anyone in particular) that want to promote the idea that the stats on a GIA report ( or a Sarin) provide definitive answers.

They don't- plain and simple.

 

I agree David. It’s why I said:

 

“Having said all this, you said you trust the jeweler and the diamond has great brilliance. Those are more important than a digit on a printed page.â€

 

…and…

 

“It sounds like a dynamite diamond and you’ve confirmed it as a great performer. As for the paper, it has a foot in the door of EX…and there are many VG diamonds which people consider every bit as good.â€

 

I’m not trying to be thorny, just clear in my communications, David. NewToRocks wanted to know ‘why’ it received a certain cut grade. I researched; it was an erroneous Sarin number and borderline girdle thickness... viola’

 

The diamond's beauty was never called into question; not by him or me.

 

Forgive me if this is redundant, I'm admittedly cyber-OCD... I’m also the guy who checks 3 or more times that the oven is off before leaving on a weekend trip.

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