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Which diamond do I choose?


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I am currently looking at two diamonds. I am conflicted as to which one I should buy, they are both the same price.

 

Option One:

 

VS2 one carrot oval diamond, E colour, good cut.

 

Option Two:

 

VVS2 one carrot oval diamond F Colour Excellent Cut.

 

Help?

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Unless there's something that I don't know about, I'd for sure go with the "VVS2 one carrot oval diamond F Colour Excellent Cut." Not only is it an excellent cut compared to a good cut, but it's a VVS2 compared to a VS2, and they are the same carat size and price. The difference between an E and an F in color won't really be an issue (both are great colors), as no normal person would be able to tell the difference.

 

Are you sure that they are the same price? The second diamond just seems too much better to be the same price ... especially if it's from the same place (which it might not be). Normally, I'd say that the difference between a VVS2 and a VS2 isn't that huge of a deal for most people as long as they're eye clean (most VS's usually are, but not always), but if they're the same price and everything...

 

I'd check into any extra stats on the diamonds to see.

 

Good luck!

 

Brian

 

brian@beforeproposing.com

www.beforeproposing.com

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Personally, I would decide based on the cutting. Unfortunately, there is no generally accepted scale for grading the cutting on ovals so the first question I would ask the seller is - "Who said the cuts were ‘good’ and ‘excellent’ and what criteria were they using to make that decision?" While your asking, find out the source of the clarity and color grading information as well. Tiny details can make a big difference.

 

If they don't have a terrific answer to the above question, and maybe even if they do, consider getting an independent appraisal as part of your shopping process. I wouldn't buy either one without a whole lot more information.

 

Neil

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I agree with Neil,

Thge visual difference betwween an E/VS2, and an F/VVs2 are dwarfed by the huge visual difference cutting makes- especially in an oval.

 

I'll go a step purther than Neil and say that by making it seem like htere is some established "Excellent" or "Good" cut for ovals, the seller tips thier hand - it's deceptive.

 

I'd be willing to bet that going along with the use of such terms comes the "non GIA" reports we detest.....

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Cut is everything. The little information you provide doesn't tell us about the visual face up appearance of these two diamonds.

 

Fact is, two diamonds with the same exact specs and numbers can look siginificantly different from each other. This is especially true of fancy shapes.

 

Also, keep in mind that in fancy shapes there is no such thing as an "Excellent", "Very Good" Cut. Different number combinations can result in a beautiful face-up appearance.

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I think we gave this guy a lot to worry about! :)

 

I'd ask where these diamonds came from and who they were graded by. If they came from the same place or were graded by the same place, the excellent cut would probably more likely be the better deal. If they came from two different places or (more importantly) if they are from two different reports, I'd question it a bit more.

 

If you trust the seller(s), you could also just ask them their opinion. You'd be surprised at how honest they can be sometimes -- even if it's trying to get you to buy a better or more expensive diamond.

 

Take care and let me know if you need any help.

 

Brian

 

brian@beforeproposing.com

 

www.beforeproposing.com

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"we" ???????? Then include me out.

 

This is what you advised 453596:

 

" Unless there's something that I don't know about, I'd for sure go with the "VVS2 one carrot oval diamond F Colour Excellent Cut." Not only is it an excellent cut compared to a good cut, but it's a VVS2 compared to a VS2, and they are the same carat size and price."

 

What kind of "advice" is this"?

 

You don't know whether or not these diamonds:

 

1. have lab grading reports,

2. which labs graded them,

3. Cut Quality,

4. Photos,

5. Measurements of light performance.

 

Yet you just go by the Vendors description of the diamond as "Excellent Cut" without supporting evidence and make a recommendation on a several thousands dollars item???

 

If you want to dispense advice and help consumers, no problem.

 

At least know your subject.

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This is true that he should check the grading report and all that. If you checked my original message, I told him to check the extra stats and said that it would be a good choice if it was from the same place (which it might not be -- in which case stats can vary greatly). My suggestions were based on the "actual" gradings of a diamond. Of course if someone BS's the stats or uses a horrible grading system, the suggestions could change. But if it's from the same report, I still stand by my original suggestion. There's not too much more that can be said without more information.

 

And he stated the cut quality, it's just a matter of their validity/grading.

 

And as far as your "we" comment, I think you're jumping on a pointless debate. I said that we gave him a lot to worry about as far as checking into the grading reports and what not as everyone has said.

 

If you want to add an extra comment or two about checking on something else, great, but please stop making this more on the personal side.

 

Brian

 

brian@beforeproposing.com

 

www.beforeproposing.com

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Not personal at all, Brian.

 

Professional. With your "advice" on this forum you clearly demonstrate that you know less than nothing about Diamonds. It's guys like you who give our Industry a bad name.

 

I quoted your exact advice which is pure piffle.

 

Here it is again:

 

" Unless there's something that I don't know about, I'd for sure go with the "VVS2 one carrot oval diamond F Colour Excellent Cut." Not only is it an excellent cut compared to a good cut, but it's a VVS2 compared to a VS2, and they are the same carat size and price."

 

Now, you go on to say that, "My suggestions were based on the "actual" gradings of a diamond. Of course if someone BS's the stats or uses a horrible grading system, the suggestions could change. But if it's from the same report, I still stand by my original suggestion. There's not too much more that can be said without more information."

 

Exactly, so why say it and give this type of "advice" which gives the consumer nothing? We don't know which Lab graded these diamonds, but you advised the consumer, nevertheless. Now you're backtracking and hedging. Did you ask the consumer if he can obtain this information? No.

 

And you say this:

"And he stated the cut quality, it's just a matter of their validity/grading.

 

Correct, exactly my point. Consumer is quoting the Vendor. And you're OK with that? Where is corroborating data and information that would support this contention? Does not seem to bother you. But you advise the consumer to go with the "Excellent" Cut Oval.

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Hmm ... not personal at all? You're basically flaming me, plain and simple. With quotes like "guys like you" and what not. I don't make the diamond industry a bad name -- I help by only dealing with the most respected grading systems for the diamonds. It's the crappy reports (or non existent ones) that give consumers uncertainty in their diamonds. People shouldn't have to be reminded that one places "good" cut might anothers "excellent." That's what I try to cut out.

 

I don't even deal with crappy diamonds and only deal with sites that offer diamonds graded by respectable grading companies, which makes the decisions A LOT easier and create less for consumers to worry about. I don't even bother with the other sites with ungraded, or "bad" grading systems. This makes everyone's job a lot easier. My reply to him was a quick one, as he seemed to be going between a higher clarity or a higher color, and I merely wanted to state my opinion in that. Yes, he should check the report if it's a shady site/jeweler, and yes, that was an excellent point to make in addition to what I said. Leave it at that, and please stop the slams for offering my opinions and advice.

 

If you want to slam me more, feel free to e-mail me. Otherwise, continue to feel free to add any comments if you think something is missing. No harm.

 

Brian

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We're not discussing what you do, who you work with, or what kind of respectable lab reports you prefer.

 

I'm clearly pointing out that the "advice" you've been doling out on this Forum is crap and does consumers a grave disservice.

 

You conveniently answer with non-sequiters when you can't answer on the point as you have recently done to both Denverappraiser and Hermann, this site's Admin.

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You're entitled to your opinion, but I fail to see how stating my opinion on a color vs clarity or anything else is a disservice. And no information I have given is false. Again, if you want to add a bit or two to it, go ahead -- no problem, as it can only help.

 

I constantly run into jewelers who try to bash me (due to a perceived competition that really doesn't exist) -- often by them making false claims. I've once said that titanium, platinum, and white gold can all look somewhat similar and all have their ups and downs. A jeweler then proceeded to say that I don't know what I'm talking about and that titanium is only black. After showing a site that had several silver-looking titanium rings (yes, there are black ones out there, but they aren't as popular), he changed the topic and said that I didn't know what I was talking about when I said that most jewelers can't resize a titanium ring. After several jewelers said that they can't resize titanium indeed, he stated that because the Navy can mold titanium, that it can be resized by every jeweler. Get the point? Just because I have a service where I search for deals on quality diamonds to save people money, does not mean that I'm in competition with you or that we both can't complement one anothers advice.

 

If you ever see a point missing in the future, please, by all means point it out. But it's a disservice to a forum to turn it into bashing. This is the last post I'll make on this topic.

 

Take care,

 

Brian

 

brian@beforeproposing.com

 

www.beforeproposing.com

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Brian,

 

I think we’ve already all agreed that you are a commission salesperson for a jewelry store … excuse me, for several jewelry stores. How can you not see that as being a competitor?

 

That said, I don’t think it’s your status as a competitor that is getting you picked on. For example, Megan (10x), David (diamondsbylauren) and Barry (barry) are all internet based diamond dealers in competition with both each other and with the firms who advertise here. In practice, many of the regulars, and all of the advertisers here are in direct competition with one another. If competition were the problem there would be many more threads like this. The problem is that you present yourself as an independent expert when in practice you are neither.

 

Neil

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Yes, if there is commission from a dealer that offers a respectable graded diamond at a lower price, I collect a commission from them as I have previously mentioned. However, if there's the same respectable graded diamond at an even lower price from a place that I don't collect a commission from, I pass that on along. That is made obvious from the start with anyone who asks to work with me. Most of the questions I answer on here are not people that I'll end up working with -- it's just to give a little tip or two.

 

And I'd say about 85% of my customers come from ads, close to 15% from word of mouth, and less than 1% from any forum. There's not really any competition. I'm not a salesman for any particular jewelry store. I have databases of dozens of stores that I've checked out myself -- some of them I've set up affiliations with. When I do a search, I search the best sites around for the lowest prices on the highest quality diamonds. It's the same concept that several other sites, including this forum website, do except with a twist and a personal search.

 

If you haven't dealt with me, then don't judge. If you want to compare the quality of diamonds with a price, then by all means judge that. However, I've never had a dissatisfied client.

 

My point is this: this thread's purpose was to answer a guy's question, and it was pretty thoroughly answered as much as it possibly could. No harm done to anyone.

 

Brian

 

brian@beforeproposing.com

 

www.beforeproposing.com

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Actually, as a consumer only (I lurk b/c I'm hoping for a ring soon!!!), I think there is harm. Brian, it looks like you're trying really hard to help, which is a good thing, but your advice is often misleading due to lack of knowledge.

 

David and Barry, et al. are trying really hard to give careful, scientific, detailed responses to questions. Their advice is consistently good -- get the grading report, get an independent appraisal, go for cut over color and clarity, and certainly over size.

 

Yours is not as detailed, you never mentioned the grading report, and you just told a consumer to buy the "better" of the two stones based solely on color and clarity. As a consumer, I'd be scared to trust your diamond advice. (Your engagement stories, however, are terrific).

 

This isn't a flame -- I see what you're trying to do. But I have referred several friends to this site for information and knowledge, and I want to make sure they are getting the best advice possible.

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I’m not sure if you’re being deliberately obtuse or if you really are missing the point.

 

Where you get your clients is irrelevant.

How much your employers pay you is irrelevant.

The products and services you prefer to sell is irrelevant.

(these things are irrelevant to this conversation, obviously they are important in other situations)

 

Your service is not what is being judged, it’s your advice and your presentation of it.

 

None of us here see a significant amount of business as a direct result of this forum. I would be thrilled to see this change as I’m sure would Hermann and everyone else. Perhaps this suggests that we’re being foolish to spend time here at all but I prefer to see it as a group of good people who are genuinely interested in providing quality advice to shoppers in a difficult and generally blind market. For this to happen, the advice presented, especially from the professionals, should be held to a standard of being accurate, appropriate and useful. This includes you.

 

You said:

“The second diamond just seems too much better to be the same price .. especially if it's from the same place (which it might not be).”

 

I agree that services like yours can provide value for both your clients and your employers and there is no problem at all that you're paid for it. If this comment had come from a consumer I would have counted it as ill informed but not particularly unusual. As a professional advisor, you should be more careful about your choice of words. We all make mistakes and say dumb things from time to time but this doesn’t seem to be the case here and your record here isn't all that good. Do you really not see the problem with this comment?

 

Neil

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I should have worded it better, as I'm not used to working with bad/shady gradings, and I do see that. Which is why the extra comment of "check the grading report" is a great one and one that I shouldn't have forgotten. In fact, if you check out my diamond guide on my site, I specifically talk about checking the grading reports to make sure that the cuts really are what they are and then proceed to talk about how cut is usually the most important. Everything that was already said, basically.

 

My original reply was a quick one minute reply and I thought they were from the same source (although I added a note if they weren't). I should be more careful in the future to double check the original source, and thank you for pointing that out. That's one of the reasons why I don't deal with anything that isn't backed up by a respectable grading institution -- it makes it a ton easier and more secure for everyone.

 

Thanks for pointing that out!

 

Brian

 

brian@beforeproposing.com

 

www.beforeproposing.com

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I consider GIA to be among the most respected graders of any diamond. When you go into fancy cuts, there can be much more of a debate as to what "ideal" or the top cut is (many are recognized as being great, even though many reports from several institutes don't make an official claim).

 

For GIA, you would want to look for a "very good" cut diamond. From there, you can check the table size and depth. Usually it's 54% to 61.5% of the diameter and then 59% to 63% of the diameter respectively (what most individuals consider to be more of an "ideal," although I don't like to use that word on fancy cuts).

 

What would you recommend?

 

Brian

 

brian@beforeproposing.com

 

www.beforeproposing.com

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GIA does not include a cut grade of any kind on any of their grading reports for ovals and never has. They don’t even have a grading scale to use for it and cut grading of fancies is not part of the curriculum for their students in their diamond grading classes. I would consequently not describe them as reliable for this purpose.

 

Gemex is a pretty good place to start if you’ve got a dealer or appraiser who can supply it. AGS offers a scale for their appraisers and retailers as well as some tools that can be helpful but they don’t use any sort of cut grading on the AGSL grading reports for ovals. There is quite a bit of confusion about how to use both their tools and scales and this is a source of great trouble for people who want to come to a conclusion based on a photograph or document. I would consider this helpful if you are buying from an AGS retailer or consulting with an AGS appraiser but would not consider it to be useful in isolation and I would not recommend relying on ANY appraiser’s or dealer’s opinion unless you have first scrutinized their reliability and usually unless you are personally the client because context is so important. In the end, there are no reports that I would consider reliable to buy a fancy cut diamond sight unseen. ‘Ideal’, ‘Excellent’, and ‘Good’ are all meaningless if taken out of context.

 

Overall depth and table size is not sufficient, or even close.

 

Neil

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GIA does, however, recognize a range of cuts that fall into an "ideal" or "very good" without saying the actual term "ideal," as that's very controversial. Typically, it's 54% to 61.5% of the diameter and then 59% to 63% of the diameter respectively for the table size and depth. This alone does NOT necessarily make it ideal, but it is a good start. If it is outside of this range, they claim that it won't be a great cut for it. You won't see any claims on a report from them, but you can read about what they consider to be good cuts on their website: www.gia.edu

 

GIA also red flags potential problems (for instance, you might see a comment about the crown angles or other features exceeding certain specifications), which can be used by a jeweler to inform their customer more about if it's a good cut or not. Most of the better places that deal with fancy diamonds will officially call the top cuts "very good" cuts and will use the reports to more inform the customer. I personally prefer that over a place that jumps the gun on a debate and claims to have an ideal. But I can see both sides.

 

Due to the debate over "ideals" for fancy diamonds, you should take any fancy diamond that claims to be ideal with a grain of salt. Some other places recognize this, but that doesn't end the debate.

 

Brian

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Are we having the same conversation?

 

Have you ever actually READ anything produced by GIA or the contents of that website or you just making this stuff up as you go along? If so, please provide a link to the section of their site where they say the cut of ovals can be judged by table and depth measurements. I’m sure I must be missing it. While you’re at it and since you brought it up, please also point out the section where they discuss the correct usage of the word ‘ideal’ or where they describe what makes an oval ‘very good’ vs. something else.

 

Neil

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This is exactly why I defer to people like David, Barry, Megan, and Neil when it comes to diamonds.. And I'm a full time benchie / designer in real jewlery store.. I would wager that I know a fair amount about diamonds but not enough to be offering buying advice to people..

 

Now, have a question about metal, stone setting etc., I'm all over that, but the little details about diamonds, I think I'll take a pass and let the pros deal with it..

 

I think that if you really want to help your 'customers' Brian, you should consider taking one or more of the GIA sales classes that are offered via the internet and distance learning.. At least then you will be providing genuine advice rather than what you have learned form the 'net..

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