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Russell1234

Help/advice please

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Please can I get some help!

I'm looking to buy a diamond for an engagement ring and was thinking one of these:

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4212240.htm

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.13-carat-f-color-vvs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-7680586

What is better and for this kind of budget should I be prioritising one of the 4C's?

Thanks!

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Hello Russell1234, welcome to Diamond Review!

It depends on what it is that you privilege: there is a 5th C, which is Cost...

JA have acquired the VERY annoying habit of not publishing complete lab report data on their website, so there is information missing that would be useful in a comparison, however for an extra $1,500 you are getting a better cut stone and a higher level of service both pre- and after-sale from Whiteflash.

Will anyone see the difference in cut quality in reality? Possibly not, unless they are quite attentive, know what they are looking at/for and the diamonds are very clean, but the difference is easily visible in the videos.

Is it worth $1,500? For me, yes. But then again, I'm not you and I am a cut enthusiast (not to say 'snob').

Working links to the two stones - for ease of use if anyone else wants to comment

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4212240.htm

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.13-carat-f-color-vvs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-7680586

Edited by davidelevi
Fixed grammar!

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Thanks davidelevi!

Does it make much difference that the more expensive one from Whiteflash is VVS2 compared to the JA which is VVS1?

Or is it worth it for the upgrade in the quality of the cut?

Thank again!

Russell

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Thanks for posting the report. It confirms what I thought: the JA is very well cut, but the WF is cut better.

VVS1 vs. VVS2 will make absolutely no difference to how they look - even under a loupe (once set).

"Worth it" is very much in the eye of the beholder - I don't think 95% of people will see the difference, and $1,500 is a fair amount of money (for me at least). For my (her) engagement ring, I'd spend it - but as I said I am a jewellery and gemstone nut... if you were to make the opposite call it would be totally understandable.

What would she prefer? A "perfectly cut diamond" or a very well cut diamond plus something else (a weekend somewhere with you, a really nice handbag, some money towards your house together, a charitable contribution to a cause dear to her, wedding dresses for her sisters, ...)?

  • Like 1

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Ask away!

WF is well known for very strict cut standards; they are very very similar from a cut point of view; if anything I prefer the 1.11 because it has a slightly higher crown and smaller table (even though it's a smidgen smaller in diameter).

The small crystal that grades the clarity as VS2 is easily visible in the images, but it's transparent and it won't be visible with the naked eye (but it will make identification with a loupe much easier!).

If it were me, I'd go for this one - unless there is something that appeals in the idea of a "diamond with no visible flaw, even under magnification". Which a VVS2 isn't quite, but it usually gets durned close once set.

Edited by davidelevi
  • Like 1

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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1 hour ago, Russell1234 said:

Thanks - what is the benefit of a slightly lower crown and smaller table?

Lower crown and broader table, or higher crown and smaller table?

Very broadly - there is a trade off in any diamond between brightness (the amount of ambient light reflected directly back to the observer) and fire (the amount of light being refracted through a virtual prism in the stone before returning to the observer - "rainbows").

The crown is where a lot of this trade off is worked out - again in very generic terms, the broader the table and the shallower the crown, the more the balance is shifted towards white light coming right back after bouncing against a pavilion facet, and vice-versa the smaller the table and the higher the crown the higher the chance a ray of light will be refracted through a (virtual) prism in the crown before coming back out.

My personal preference is for a bit more fire and a bit less brightness; other people prefer the opposite. There is no wrong answer, though virtually nobody prefers the extremes (a flat mirror and a prism lit from the side, respectively).


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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I just want to say David thank you so much for your help. 

I'm aware I might be bugging you, so I just posted separately in a new thread (the below), but if you were happy to share your thoughts I would of course appreciate it!

Hello everyone,

This is my second post and everyone has been very helpful!

I'm trying to choose between these 4 diamonds. What would have the best appearance overall to the eye? I don't want to see any inclusions to the naked eye, even up close and in bright light so bit worried about the VS2 option. If there was no way you would ever see the inclusion to the eye I wouldn't mind going for it.

Apart from no visible inclusion, I really want it to have great fire, brightness, sparkle etc and to look good in all lights.

I'm leaning towards the first one (JA) as it is GIA and VVS2, but not sure how the cut compares to the others? (Report at the bottom)

I would be really appreciative of any help you can all give. Thanks!

  1. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.07-carat-f-color-vvs2-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-8205436
  2. https://www.brilliantearth.com/rings/cyorings/view_diamond/9270329/?sid=1325454
  3. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4212263.htm
  4. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4212240.htm

image.png.a23b6d08f7cf7f59ba052c75491da223.png

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3 hours ago, Russell1234 said:

I've actually found one more! 

How do you think this one compares to the 2 WF diamonds? 

https://www.brilliantearth.com/rings/cyorings/view_diamond/9270329/?sid=1325454

Sorry if I'm bugging you...

You are not bugging at all - as long as you can wait a bit between a question and an answer; I'm only checking the forum when I have a minute to write 😉

We are back to the same trade off as between the first JA and WF "pair". The WF stone(s) is cut "better" - meaning with a balance of attributes that will please more people, as well as more symmetrically and precisely. The other one is another $1,400 cheaper.

In fact the photo on this last one could be a good demonstration of the trade-off between crown height and width (more fire) and brightness: it's starting to look quite dark in the centre, even though the cutter compensated by cutting a shallower pavilion. It could also be an artefact of the photo, but my first thought when I saw this was "hmm - big crown".

Personally - setting price aside for a moment - I like it less than the JA (and much less than either of the WF), though it's still a nicely cut stone. Whether that hits the "sweet spot" for you is a different question. 

Edited by davidelevi
Added quote to make it clearer to what this is responding to

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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5 minutes ago, davidelevi said:

You are not bugging at all - as long as you can wait a bit between a question and an answer; I'm only checking the forum when I have a minute to write 😉

We are back to the same trade off as between the first JA and WF "pair". The WF stone(s) is cut "better" - meaning with a balance of attributes that will please more people, as well as more symmetrically and precisely. The other one is another $1,400 cheaper.

In fact the photo on this last one could be a good demonstration of the trade-off between crown height and width (more fire) and brightness: it's starting to look quite dark in the centre, even though the cutter compensated by cutting a shallower pavilion. It could also be an artefact of the photo, but my first thought when I saw this was "hmm - big crown".

Personally - setting price aside for a moment - I like it less than the JA (and much less than either of the WF), though it's still a nicely cut stone. Whether that hits the "sweet spot" for you is a different question. 

Thanks again! Happy to wait, although you are very quick at responding!

So for you personally the VS2 WF is probably the best combination in terms of brilliance/fire/sparkle?

The only thing that holds me back is I would be worried I could see the inclusion as it is VS2. WF says it is eye clean - i.e. if good lighting and 10 inches away, but I wondered up close under bright lighting whether you would be able to see something like that?

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Sorry - we posted at the same time, so my latest post is answering your previous one. I have edited it to make things clearer.

The one thing I can add is that you will not see that crystal in the WF VS2 with the naked eye; however eye-clean and mind-clean (i.e. the thing not bugging you in the back of your head) are not the same thing.

The 1.07 is better cut than the previous JA stone, and better cut than the BrilliantEarth one by a mile. However, it's still not quite in the same league as the WF. Would you see the difference? Less than between the "first" JA and either of the WF. Good enough? Don't know. I would privilege cut instead of clarity, but as usual there is no right or wrong answer


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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4 minutes ago, Russell1234 said:

Thanks again! Happy to wait, although you are very quick at responding!

So for you personally the VS2 WF is probably the best combination in terms of brilliance/fire/sparkle?

The only thing that holds me back is I would be worried I could see the inclusion as it is VS2. WF says it is eye clean - i.e. if good lighting and 10 inches away, but I wondered up close under bright lighting whether you would be able to see something like that?

Bright lighting isn't going to be brighter than a jeweller's lighting used for photos. 😉 Plus the stone is going to be set, and that will (usually) make seeing any inclusions significantly harder. If the setter knows his/her job, they will put the inclusion as close as possible to an underlying piece of metal, so it effectively becomes invisible.

The WF VS2 is the one I like best in terms of cut. Personal preferences and all that.

If you have enough time before proposal etc., WF is pretty good with returns. Get the stone and agree with them that you are going to return it in a week - either for setting (in case you are happy, which I'm pretty sure you will be, and assuming that you are using them for the setting as well), or for refund if you are not. Gently suggest that if you return for setting, they pick up the return shipping costs.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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One of the problems with calling anything "eye clean" is that visual acuity (and tolerance for schmutz) is oh-so-very-subjective and varying. What is invisible to me (with glasses) at 10 inches is horrendous to you at 5.

BTW - nobody is going to observe a diamond at 5 (or even 10) inches unless they ask and you give them explicit permission to do so... otherwise you have different problems than diamond clarity! 😄 

Which is why I am suggesting that the only way for you to make sure it's clean to your liking is for you to see it directly.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Thank you again for your suggestions and advice Davide.

Your suggestion to see it in person seems sensible, I'm based in London but I believe they ship worldwide.

I think the VS2 one overall seems the better option for me/girlfriend.

I did just find one other WF one and wondered how this one compares to the VS2 one in terms of cut in your opinion?

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4212233.htm

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They do ship worldwide. Keep all paperwork, including boxes with stickers etc. in case you need to ship back (it's often the only way to get your VAT back). Remember to add 20% VAT (and 2.5% duty if you are importing with a setting) to all your cost calculations!

The 1.066 is also very nicely cut; it's a shade smaller, and it's back in $10,000+ territory... for me, I would take a punt on the VS2. I would offer to help you check things out in person, since I'm not far from London, but a 2 metre social distancing rule makes judging things from 10 inch away a bit difficult! 


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Do you think Davide that it is still worth looking on Whiteflash given the extra 20%? My budget is 8k all in, so that 20% VAT really brings down what I can afford on WF.

Maybe 77 diamonds instead? Would you mind if I found a few more and put them in here for your opinion again?

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I found these 3 and wondered your thoughts compared to the WF VS2?

https://www.gia.edu/UK-EN/report-check?reportno=2326923480

https://www.gia.edu/UK-EN/report-check?reportno=1325033106

https://www.gia.edu/UK-EN/report-check?reportno=1196725275

These are cheaper!

You've been so helpful - I would be more than happy to pay for some of your time over the phone if you were interested? Not sure whether that's allowed or not in these forums 

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Hi Russell,

4 hours ago, Russell1234 said:

Do you think Davide that it is still worth looking on Whiteflash given the extra 20%? My budget is 8k all in, so that 20% VAT really brings down what I can afford on WF.

Maybe 77 diamonds instead? Would you mind if I found a few more and put them in here for your opinion again?

Yes, I think that it is definitely worth looking at premium vendors - if cut is a primary driver in your decision.

I assume "8k all in" is £8k, not $8k, although funnily enough once one nets VAT out, $8,100 is what is left. That demands a re-assessment of priorities, but I believe it's more feasible than you may think.

77Diamonds is a good company, but it's a list-based broker, like JA or Brilliant Earth - a very different proposition (and a very different consistency of product) than a premium cut manufacturer like WF (or Brian Gavin, or Good Old Gold - which has still a different model).

3 hours ago, Russell1234 said:

Yep, they are cheaper - but even on paper (and that's only a relatively small part of the story) they are cut significantly worse.

Report ending in 480 - leave well alone (purely from a cut proportions point of view)

Reports ending in 106 and 275 - meh (compared to the "good ones" above - they are not bad for a non-premium cut). If you have to pick one, 106 is marginally better.

4 hours ago, Russell1234 said:

You've been so helpful - I would be more than happy to pay for some of your time over the phone if you were interested? Not sure whether that's allowed or not in these forums 

Let's see if I can earn my fee... of a pint of ale together when social distancing regulations will allow.

My recommendation - which I'm more than happy to explain and discuss on the phone for no charge; just PM me for contact details - is that you relax on colour (G-H) and clarity (VS2 or even SI1 - at 1.10 ct most of them will be eye-clean), and stick with a premium vendor, or at the very least someone who can inspect the diamond on your behalf before shipping it on (i.e. not one of the big guys). That should bring a 1.10 with truly superb cut within reach...


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Wow that is a comprehensive reply and a pint of ale well earnt I would say!

I like your suggestion of relaxing the colour and clarity (to still eye-clean).

 

I will try to PM you now....

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