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chobo2

What do you think of This Diamond (Round)

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Hi

 

I have this diamond reserved: https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD11533600

 

I asked them to inspect it to make sure it is eye clean and this what they said: "The diamond is  "eye clean" and there is no haze or milky effect per the vault manager that inspected it for me."

 

 

Edited by chobo2

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It looks very well cut on paper and in the video. I think I can see the crystal or the feather (at 10 o'clock in the video, near the girdle), but not the other one (unless they are next to each other, which is a frequent occurrence: the crystal causes the feather!) with some difficulty, which confirms that it's likely eye-clean, but the only way to really know is to look at the diamond in reality.

I don't necessarily believe Blue Nile, since their so called "vault manager" is only calling their supplier and getting the information second (or third) hand - no-one at BN handles the diamond - however it's not in anybody's interest to lie to you. Once you get it, testing for eye-cleanness is pretty easy, and so is testing for any negative effects from fluorescence; let us know if you need help.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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1 minute ago, davidelevi said:

It looks very well cut on paper and in the video. I think I can see the crystal or the feather (at 10 o'clock in the video, near the girdle), but not the other one (unless they are next to each other, which is a frequent occurrence: the crystal causes the feather!) with some difficulty, which confirms that it's likely eye-clean, but the only way to really know is to look at the diamond in reality.

I don't necessarily believe Blue Nile, since their so called "vault manager" is only calling their supplier and getting the information second (or third) hand - no-one at BN handles the diamond - however it's not in anybody's interest to lie to you. Once you get it, testing for eye-cleanness is pretty easy, and so is testing for any negative effects from fluorescence; let us know if you need help.

So would you buy this diamond. I have attached my wish list and budget

 


I am not sure what I will end up buying a natural or lab grown diamond, so I am looking at both. My gf does not care as long as it looks nice(sparkles) and she can call it a diamond, so it goes back to me to find some options in my budget and then present her with those options.

I have a budget of 3,000cdn (2274.67 USD) that would be including the setting(this seems like it will be around 500 CDN) and taxes. However the front runner after going to local stores is Spence Lab grown diamond with setting is $3200 CDN (2426.32 USD) with no taxes.

Contender 
Lab grown diamond: .64 H VS1
Setting: 14Kt yellow gold, 1mm in width and with 6 prongs solitaire.

I know the above is lab grown diamond but it should be transferable to what we would want in a natural diamond. Of course maybe VS1 is not needed and could be cut back a bit.


Clarity: we don't want people to see any inclusions while looking at it with the naked eye (under 10x zoom I don't care). She wants show her co-workers and stuff, I imagine they won't be staring at it for more than a min or 2.

Color: we liked I or H so that would be the target color (if we can get higher great if not I think that would be are range).


Cut: Probably Very Good at a minimum (not sure what Spences Excellent rating maps too on site like bluenile) but at the end of the day we want this ring to sparkle.

Carat: 0.55 to 0.70 would be the range though since my gf seemed to like 0.64 I guess that is the size to go for.


Store

I don't care which online site it is as long as it reputable and has free shipping to Canada, no duties and 30 day 100% return police that includes shipping.


 

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The "natural" diamond seems to tick all the boxes on your list.

I'm not so sure that the synthetic does: who has graded it "H/VS1" and what do they mean by that? As above for the grading of "Excellent" cut. On the other hand, you have seen it and it seems to tick the "I like it" box, which is by far the most important.

All of this said, I don't see the point of purchasing a lab-grown diamond when you can buy an equivalent, good quality natural stone for the same price. If the synthetic came at a significant discount, or with credible paperwork declaring it much better quality (and sorry, but a vendor's paperwork is not credible by default: they have a horse in the race, so unless you have a reason to trust them the answer is "no").

"No duty" is nothing to do with the vendor; as far as I know, the Canadian duty on loose diamonds is 0%, but the duty on mounted jewellery is 6.5%, to which you will need to add any VAT or Sales Tax. Assuming you get charged duty and you live in Ontario (the highest overall Sales Tax in the provinces where Spence has a store), you end up on a par or slightly less than the CAD 3,200 you were quoted for the synthetic. In other provinces, you are a couple of tens to a couple of hundred $ ahead with the natural.

Edited by davidelevi
Clarified Canadian tax calculation/assumptions

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Your “don’t care” list for dealers rules out nearly everyone, especially the free return shipping from Canada requirement.

Synthetics are, in general, less expensive for superficially similar goods but be aware that you have some apples vs. oranges issues going on here.  You mention cut grading, which is a biggie. They don’t all use the same scales even as they use some of the same words. One person’s idea of very good can easily be someone else’s idea of super-ideal.  These standards vary dramatically from one grading company to the next. The same actually applies to clarity and color as well because the growers generally use different labs from the miners. There is NOT a direct translation. H/VS1 does not mean the same thing in all circumstances and from all sources. 

Canadian taxes are, of course, up to Her Majesty.  VAT can be included in the price or added at the border, but taxes are not up to the merchant.  It’s simple enough math to separate it if you want but it doesn’t change what you owe.

I second Davide's nervousness about the vault manager, although it's a cool name. There are no humans at BN who look at diamonds.  The bright side is that the much-maligned haze that you read about online is very rare and basically unheard of on stones with below medium fluorescence, which is most. Avoiding that is pretty easy by simply avoiding strong and above fluorescence. (note: I think fluorescence is pretty cool and it tends to drive down prices because of the advice I just gave you. Strong-blue stones mostly don't show hazy either but people avoid them.  If you don't mind shopping close to the edge of the cliff, this is one of the places to look for 'deals').

All other things being equal, synthetics are generally a bit less expensive. If a natural stone isn't a feature for you and/or your bride, and low prices are, go with a lab stone.  Some people have strong opinions on this so do make sure you're firm on her disinterest in origin. There's a savings here but it's not as big as people usually expect.

 

Edited by denverappraiser

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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12 minutes ago, davidelevi said:

The "natural" diamond seems to tick all the boxes on your list.

I'm not so sure that the synthetic does: who has graded it "H/VS1" and what do they mean by that? As above for the grading of "Excellent" cut. On the other hand, you have seen it and it seems to tick the "I like it" box, which is by far the most important.

All of this said, I don't see the point of purchasing a lab-grown diamond when you can buy an equivalent, good quality natural stone for the same price. If the synthetic came at a significant discount, or with credible paperwork declaring it much better quality (and sorry, but a vendor's paperwork is not credible by default: they have a horse in the race, so unless you have a reason to trust them the answer is "no").

"No duty" is nothing to do with the vendor; as far as I know, the Canadian duty on loose diamonds is 0%, but the duty on mounted jewellery is 6.5%, to which you will need to add any VAT or Sales Tax. Assuming you get charged duty and you live in Ontario (the highest overall Sales Tax), you end up on a par or slightly less than the CAD 3,200 you were quoted for the synthetic. In other provinces, you are a couple of hundred $ ahead with the natural.

Yea, I do sort of have apple vs oranges here, I totally agree if the natural is the same price as the man made diamond with the similar specs then go with natural. In the case with Spence the natural diamond they showed me was like 0.55 SI2 and H color for $2800 CDN.

So they showed us the man made one what was the specs I posted. So I was like ok, lets see how much would a natural cost online with similar specs, which lead me to the one that I am looking to buy.

If I go with BE lab made, then it will be about 700 CDN cheaper than the natural diamond I am looking at, I am not sure about them yet. Like it was there grading seems to up in the air. This is why I keep leaning more toward this natural but I just I guess need some people who know more to sign off on it. 

 

12 minutes ago, denverappraiser said:

Your “don’t care” list for dealers rules out nearly everyone, especially the free return shipping from Canada requirement.

Synthetics are, in general, less expensive for superficially similar goods but be aware that you have some apples vs. oranges issues going on here.  You mention cut grading, which is a biggie. They don’t all use the same scales even as they use some of the same words. One person’s idea of very good can easily be someone else’s idea of super-ideal.  These standards vary dramatically from one grading company to the next. The same actually applies to clarity and color as well because the growers generally use different labs from the miners. There is NOT a direct translation. H/VS1 does not mean the same thing in all circumstances and from all sources. 

Canadian taxes are, of course, up to Her Majesty.  VAT can be included in the price or added at the border, but taxes are not up to the merchant.  It’s simple enough math to separate it if you want but it doesn’t change what you owe.

I second Davide's nervousness about the vault manager, although it's a cool name. There are no humans at BN who look at diamonds.  The bright side is that the much-maligned haze that you read about online is very rare and basically unheard of on stones with below medium fluorescence, which is most. Avoiding that is pretty easy by simply avoiding strong and above fluorescence. (note: I think fluorescence is pretty cool and it tends to drive down prices because of the advice I just gave you. Strong-blue stones mostly don't show hazy either but people avoid them.  If you don't mind shopping close to the edge of the cliff, this is one of the places to look for 'deals').

All other things being equal, synthetics are generally a bit less expensive. If a natural stone isn't a feature for you and/or your bride, and low prices are, go with a lab stone.  Some people have strong opinions on this so do make sure you're firm on her disinterest in origin. There's a savings here but it's not as big as people usually expect.

 

Yeah, I am aware that my conditions on store does limit it greatly, but the thing is that since I am so out of my element that I think there could be a good chance I want to return the ring and want the easiest process.

Also alot of sites don't  really ship to Canada but if you got a site that ships to Canada but does not have a free returns for Canada but the diamond would be so much cheaper or better I will look at it.

Yeah I understand where your coming from with the vault manager and this goes back to why the return is important for me as honest this is the best looking diamond I seen in my price range with my limited knowledge.

Maybe people like you can find a better one and I am all ears that's why I am here.  The one I did post does have a Strong fluorescence

 

 

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How close are you to a US border? If you are close, the "free returns" issue may be easily solved...

12 minutes ago, chobo2 said:

Like it was there grading seems to up in the air.

As both Neil and I said (Neil more explicitly), not all lab reports are equal, and not all "H/VS1" are the same colour or clarity. For the prices you are being quoted for synthetics against the diamond you linked at the top of this thread, I would have no doubts about going with natural.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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1 minute ago, davidelevi said:

How close are you to a US border? If you are close, the "free returns" issue may be easily solved...

As both Neil and I said (Neil more explicitly), not all lab reports are equal, and not all "H/VS1" are the same colour or clarity. For the prices you are being quoted for synthetics against the diamond you linked at the top of this thread, I would have no doubts about going with natural.

 

I live close to the border, So I guess that is an option though I have to use one of the border mail services which I am not sure if they would accept it.

Anyways can cross that bridge if it needs to happen but it would be possible.  

Lets ignore the synthetic one for now as I am more learning towards the natural diamond I posted. 

Should I buy this natural diamond in my OP or is there something in my budget that someone here could find.

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One relatively easy way around the location is to take a room at a (cheap) hotel/motel near the border... though it does mean waiting.

I don't see anything wrong with the one you linked above - quite the opposite: it's very nicely cut.

Whether anyone here would propose something else is a different matter entirely: Neil is an independent appraiser, so he will not recommend a third party stone to maintain his impartial stance, and I work for a coloured diamonds retailer that is somewhat of a competitor to the online stores advertising here (and to Blue Nile too), but we don't have anything in stock that fits your requirements.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Just now, davidelevi said:

One relatively easy way around the location is to take a room at a (cheap) hotel/motel near the border... though it does mean waiting.

I don't see anything wrong with the one you linked above - quite the opposite: it's very nicely cut.

Whether anyone here would propose something else is a different matter entirely: Neil is an independent appraiser, so he will not recommend a third party stone to maintain his impartial stance, and I work for a coloured diamonds retailer that is somewhat of a competitor to the online stores advertising here (and to Blue Nile too), but we don't have anything in stock that fits your requirements.

Yeah, I am sure I can figure away and get it shipped closer to the border but unless I got something in hand not too much use into thinking of it.

The only other site I know is James Allen and I don't think they have anything that could compare to that in my price range.

So I can do a bit more looking but there seems to be a good chance I will go with the one I found then as the only problem with the one I found is there is a slight chance that it maybe not 100% eye clean but you guys said tests can be done once I get the ring?

 

 

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As Davide mentions, I don't recommend particular stones or dealers but ignoring the limits of your requirements for dealer terms and conditions, there are more than 1100 available stones on this site alone that meet your requirements.  Most of these dealers don't meet your requirements but come decently close (the issue is the shipping on the Canadian return thing). Synthetics are a little harder to shop this way but the problem here is that there are too many acceptable options, not that there are too few.

https://www.diamondreview.com/diamonds?sortOrder=price&sortDesc=1&fShape=Rnd&fCaratLo=0.55&fCaratHi=0.69&fColorLo=H&fColorHi=I&fClarityLo=VS1&fClarityHi=VS2&fCutLo=exc&fCutHi=exc&fDepthLo=50.0&fDepthHi=80.0&fTableLo=40.0&fTableHi=80.0&fSymLo=ideal&fSymHi=exc&fPolLo=ideal&fPolHi=exc&fCulLo=&fCulHi=vlarge&fFlrLo=none&fFlrHi=med&fPriceLo=0&fPriceHi=2462&fLabGIA=1&adv=1

 

 

Edited by denverappraiser

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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6 minutes ago, denverappraiser said:

As Davide mentions, I don't recommend particular stones or dealers but ignoring the limits of your requirements for dealer terms and conditions, there are more than 1100 available stones on this site alone that meet your requirements.  Most of these dealers don't meet your requirements but come decently close (the issue is the shipping on the Canadian return thing). Synthetics are a little harder to shop this way but the problem here is that there are too many acceptable options, not that there are too few.

https://www.diamondreview.com/diamonds?sortOrder=price&sortDesc=1&fShape=Rnd&fCaratLo=0.55&fCaratHi=0.69&fColorLo=H&fColorHi=I&fClarityLo=VS1&fClarityHi=VS2&fCutLo=exc&fCutHi=exc&fDepthLo=50.0&fDepthHi=80.0&fTableLo=40.0&fTableHi=80.0&fSymLo=ideal&fSymHi=exc&fPolLo=ideal&fPolHi=exc&fCulLo=&fCulHi=vlarge&fFlrLo=none&fFlrHi=med&fPriceLo=0&fPriceHi=2462&fLabGIA=1&adv=1

 

 

Ok, will check it out but even though I been doing research for awhile it is still very hard for me to look at them and go "this is a great diamond". I can maybe get rid of the not so great one but average to good is hard for me to determine.

So I am looking for some extra eyes who are more skilled to help me make sure I am choosing a decent one, but I of course understand if you want to stay impartial.

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11 minutes ago, chobo2 said:

there is a slight chance that it maybe not 100% eye clean but you guys said tests can be done once I get the ring?

I would say that the chance is very slight. The test is very simple: look at the diamond from a normal looking distance (say 30-45 cm) in as many lighting conditions as you can: bright, dim, fluorescent, incandescent, LED and natural; yellow-orange and greenish-blue, from the front and from the side, and move it around so that you can observe it from all angles. If you cannot see the inclusion at any time... test passed.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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You’re overthinking this.

How about this as a set of parameters?:

0.65-0.69cts. round brilliant

GIA only

Xxx only.

None to faint fluorescence.

VS2+

H+

30 or more days return for any reason

Credit card only

<US$2000 plus tax.

(taxes are usually about 13% in Canada but they vary with where you are.  Ask the tax people for details.)

Here’s 25 of them.  All ship free ‘overnight’ to Canada.  All have 30-day returns.  Most will pay return shipping but there are some limits and I wouldn't be surprised if Canada is one of them.  Ask. All sell rings like you describe that are well within your budget. 

Any correctly graded VS2 will be eye clean. If it’s not, or even if you think it's not, that’s what the return option is for.

None and faint will not have the dreaded haze.  Most Very Strongs don't, but if it worries you it's not necessary to push the point. 

There are people who like to try and subdivide GIA-x to get the best of the best, and I don’t disagree with them, but this is splitting hairs and it’s not necessary if you don’t want to do it.  Other than this, the chances that you will want to make a return are really pretty low. If you raise the budget to, say, $2500, the selection doubles and this is part of the reason.

 

https://www.diamondreview.com/diamonds?sortOrder=price&sortDesc=1&fShape=Rnd&fCaratLo=0.55&fCaratHi=0.69&fColorLo=H&fColorHi=I&fClarityLo=VS1&fClarityHi=VS2&fCutLo=exc&fCutHi=exc&fDepthLo=50.0&fDepthHi=80.0&fTableLo=40.0&fTableHi=80.0&fSymLo=ideal&fSymHi=exc&fPolLo=ideal&fPolHi=exc&fCulLo=&fCulHi=vlarge&fFlrLo=none&fFlrHi=med&fPriceLo=0&fPriceHi=2462&fLabGIA=1&adv=1

Edited by denverappraiser

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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