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confuzzl3don3

Help! Choosing between 3 1.2c+ stones

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Hi everyone,

Hi guys, just wanted to get people's opinions on which one would be best value for a solitaire engagement ring.

1) GIA 627545342
Price $11,119 AUD
F
VS2
Faint fluorescence
3Ex
1.21c (6.98-7mm diameter)
HCA 1
notably has some crystals that seem to be more periphery of table

2) GIA 52736294545
Price $11758 AUD
E
VVS2
Faint fluorescence
3Ex
1.19c (6.73-76mm diameter)
HCA 2.6
only scattered pinpoints mainly on bottom, only downside is smallest dimensions

3) GIA 6272529296
Price $11900 AUD
D
SI1
No fluorescence
3Ex
1.3C (6.92-95mm diameter)
HCA 1.7
lot of centre crystals though and on the 10x magnification can see the dark crystal in lower right of table
would it be eye clean to the naked eye?
563811-c0b8967b4658fed9be5c2df232b615ef. 

Images are in the attachments. Sorry don't have any pics for 1, 2 yet or any detailed analysis with ideoscopes, etc as this dealer doesn't do them.

 

Super thanks in advance!

Cheers.

5273629454.jpg

6272529296.jpg

6275453442.jpg

Edited by confuzzl3don3

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Hello and welcome to Diamond Review!

Bear in mind that at the level of these 3 it does get very much into personal preference rather than "objectively" better.

Personal favourite would be the D/SI1 - if it is eye clean: nice proportions, and it's a D (which will very much look like the others, but sometimes...it just doesn't and there is something special about truly colourless D). Unfortunately eye-cleanness is not something that can be determined from lab reports or images: ask the vendor - and make sure they will allow you to return the stone for 100% of your money back for a reasonable period of time (and for no reason other than "I changed my mind).

The E/VVS2 comes second (even though it's smaller and I'd rather not pay for the extra clarity... which no-one will see without a loupe), and I really like higher crowns and smaller tables which is why the F/VS2 comes third. Or maybe second, considering it's larger and $600 cheaper. Dunno. Not that you are going to go wrong with any of these, but without actually seeing them (or having more info than the reports) there isn't much to help in the choosing.

Which brings up the $100k question: can you see them and decide which one you prefer?

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Hey David. Thanks for the great advice and the warm welcome :)

I'm like you, would probably prefer the D/S1 if eye clean but.....won't be able to tell. As far as I'm aware I don't think they'll let me return it (will need to double check) but I may just lose out on a deposit (probably around $1000).

What's the benefit of higher crowns and smaller tables? Always thought it was all about table size (makes the diamond look bigger)

I'll try and get some pictures. May be able to get the 10x magnification 3d pictures sent to me. But as all overseas, won't be able to see them IRL until they ship them over.

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I"d pick the D first, for the same reasons, but the E would be my last, because of the dimensions. 

I understand logistical challenges for international returning but a dealer flat out having a 'no refunds' policy or a $1000 restocking fee would be a total deal killer for me regardless of the stone.  


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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My partner has about 11-11.5 size fingers (from some shop we tried some ring sizes) which is surprising because that seems significantly bigger than the average but I wouldn't say she really has huge fingers (would probably need to get the ring size verified again). What minimum dimensions would typically look well on that?

Edited by confuzzl3don3

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I will add my similar opinion.  The D-SI1 is #1 with the EVVS in close second. 

As Neil mentions, no returns and/or $1000 restocking fee is a total deal killer.  There are dozens of more amenable places to buy superb stones.  Some of them are participants in the forum (not trying to toot my own horn, there are many of us).  Your greatest non-refundable should be the shipping and to some extent the hassle of reclaiming your VAT, but even that is doable.

Average ring size for women in the US is around 6 to 7.  Men's is 9.5 to 11.5.  Mind you these are US sizes.  Australia measures on the British system which is an alphabetical scale I believe.  Jewelers give themselves a bad reputation by creating their own internal finger sizing system.  They might just add +3 onto whatever size you actually are.  If you're a 6, they may tell you you're a 9 and when you bring that number to make a ring elsewhere and it come out completely wrong, they make the other guy look bad.  My suggestion is to go get sized in a few different places.


Laurent George
Diamond Ideals
New York City

www.diamondideals.com
212-207-4845
laurent@diamondideals.com

 

 

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On the size - some European countries (Italy, Switzerland, Netherlands, Spain) use a system where 10.5 - 11 is about equivalent to a US 5.5 - 6 (or UK K.5-L.5). This is the same as the French system (internal circumference in mm) minus 40.

To verify, there is an easy way: get a 3 mm cable tie, and make a ring around her finger that sits comfortably and that can be removed. Then cut the cable tie at the head and measure the length of tie that was around the finger (including the bit that was "in" the locking head): if you get to ~51 mm (or 2 inches), it's quite likely that the measure was made using an "Italian" gauge/scale. Here is a conversion table:

http://help.seashepherd.org/kb/article/332-ring-size-conversion-by-country

IF this is the measure scale that was used, your girlfriend has slightly thinner than average fingers; my wife has slightly larger fingers (12.5 - 13.5 on "your" scale; 6.75 US) and she wears well rings in a huge range of sizes - from a 0.75 radiant to a 10 ct oval. A 1.20-1.30 is going to be perfectly fine; when we are discussing relative size on the three stones here the 0.2 mm diameter difference will be visible, but it's hardly going to make a step difference in looks.

Edited by davidelevi
  • Like 1

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Thanks David. I didn't think it would really make an appreciable difference in size.

I will definitely recheck the ring sizes too.

Do you guys think the SI1 crystal inclusion would be noticeable to the naked eye based on experience? I know it's hard to tell but....

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2 hours ago, LaurentGeorge said:

I will add my similar opinion.  The D-SI1 is #1 with the EVVS in close second. 

As Neil mentions, no returns and/or $1000 restocking fee is a total deal killer.  There are dozens of more amenable places to buy superb stones.  Some of them are participants in the forum (not trying to toot my own horn, there are many of us).  Your greatest non-refundable should be the shipping and to some extent the hassle of reclaiming your VAT, but even that is doable.

Average ring size for women in the US is around 6 to 7.  Men's is 9.5 to 11.5.  Mind you these are US sizes.  Australia measures on the British system which is an alphabetical scale I believe.  Jewelers give themselves a bad reputation by creating their own internal finger sizing system.  They might just add +3 onto whatever size you actually are.  If you're a 6, they may tell you you're a 9 and when you bring that number to make a ring elsewhere and it come out completely wrong, they make the other guy look bad.  My suggestion is to go get sized in a few different places.

How does one go about reclaiming VAT??

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34 minutes ago, confuzzl3don3 said:

Thanks David. I didn't think it would really make an appreciable difference in size.

I will definitely recheck the ring sizes too.

Do you guys think the SI1 crystal inclusion would be noticeable to the naked eye based on experience? I know it's hard to tell but....

Chances are it won't, but given the vendor does not seem to cooperate with more info and/or a decent return policy, change vendor!

21 minutes ago, confuzzl3don3 said:

Yeah just checked with the vendor and no returns so deposit will be lost.

...see above. It's not as if there is a scarcity of stones within your specs/budget (or of vendors that would ship to you in Oz and accept returns without any penalty).

20 minutes ago, confuzzl3don3 said:

How does one go about reclaiming VAT??

Bear in mind that you only need to (and in fact CAN only) go through this if you are re-exporting the goods because they don't match the description (technically it is what you have to say). You can't really get a tax refund if you import the goods and keep them in Australia.

Two categories of import costs: customs duty and GST/VAT.

Duty is generally pretty low - 0% on loose diamonds and 5% on mounted stones

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/busi/cargo-support-trade-and-goods/importing-goods/tariff-classification-of-goods/current-tariff-classification/schedule-3/section-xiv/chapter-71#diam

it can be difficult to get it back but it is possible (and if you intend to have the stone set in Australia, it's a non issue). 

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/trav/impo/Buyi

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/Importingorbuyingfromoverseas/Documents/exportconcessionsdutydrawbackschemenov2012_000.pdf

then you have GST... which is where the procedures change often (most recently for Australia in 2015). I would recommend that you contact your tax office and ask them what is the correct procedure (could be very simply to ask for a refund providing proof of the re-export and of the paid GST, or slightly more complicated, by requesting a temporary import permit which allows you not to pay GST until you have decided to keep the stone).

What is (was) important is NOT to say that you may want to change your mind - you need(ed) to say something along the lines of: "I intend to buy the stone, but since I am unable to see it, I will be relying on the vendor's description and I will need to assess the stone in Australia before importing it permanently. It is possible that the description does not match my requirements for the goods (e.g. the diamond contains visible inclusions) in which case the diamond will not be suitable for its intended purpose and I will re-export it".

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/busi/cargo-support-trade-and-goods/importing-goods/temporary-importations

  • Like 1

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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The reason why i'm favouring purchasing with them is that they are willing to further knock off 10% off the price (so equivalent to an $1.1-2k discount on the stones) plus discounts on the setting, so I can't see the big online vendors passing me on such a great discount

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I'd be careful about "discounts". The big problem is discount from what?

For example, here is your D/SI1 - that precise, individual stone - advertised by two vendors (and there may be others) at ~AUD 700-900 below the price you have been quoted, which kind of matches the "discount" offered to you without any discounting. Whether these same vendors (or others) are willing to discount further can only be answered by them, but you lose nothing in talking to them (and many people will match prices against a genuine quote).

https://www.diamondreview.com/diamonds?sortOrder=price&sortDesc=1&fShape=Rnd&fCaratLo=1.30&fCaratHi=1.30&fColorLo=D&fColorHi=D&fClarityLo=SI1&fClarityHi=SI1&fCutLo=&fCutHi=poor&fDepthLo=62.3&fDepthHi=62.3&fTableLo=57.5&fTableHi=58.1&fSymLo=&fSymHi=poor&fPolLo=&fPolHi=poor&fCulLo=&fCulHi=vlarge&fFlrLo=&fFlrHi=vstrong&fPriceLo=0&fPriceHi=1000000&fLabGIA=1&fLabAGS=1&adv=1

Secondly, if the deal includes a setting there are more moving parts... it's a bit like the car part-exchange deal: you can get a great offer on your old car ("who'd have thought this old banger was worth this much"), but pay list on the new one, or you can get a great discount on the new car ("and all the optionals are free"), but a crappy offer for your old one. What matters is the difference you need to pay in order to get out of your old car and drive away in a new one.

I'm not saying that you are getting a bad deal - I have no idea what you have negotiated and with whom, and you may have an unbeatable deal in hand - but I would invite you to compare facts and not marketing statements. Near our office in New York (middle of the diamond district) there are a few shops that have permanent "Liquidation/Sale 50 - 70% off everything" signs in the window. Strangely enough their "50% off" prices are the same as everybody else's.

Finally, to quote one of Neil's (@denverappraiser) great sayings: "a great price on the wrong thing is no bargain". What is the value of extra information and of the peace of mind that you can exchange the stone for no cost - or even get your money refunded if you don't like something? Only you can answer that one.

(Really finally - I have no horse in this race; while we can get "ideal cut" rounds - and we can probably get you these same stones, this is not what we mainly deal in)


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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4 minutes ago, confuzzl3don3 said:

Got the pics. The f vs2 looks better though don't know if it's just the light. How obvious do you think that black crystal on  the edge of the table will be? 

The pictures have been taken in very different light and using different techniques, so don't rely on them for aesthetic comparison (and to be honest, single highly magnified pictures aren't much use for understanding eye-cleanness either). The problem is  that the VS2 (never mind a VVS) was "always" going to be clean; the question is the SI1, and there is no picture of that yet.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Yeah. I understand that. I did post a small pic of the 1.3 d si1 in the OP but I'll post it here again. 

I'd love to post the 3d one of it too but can't. Granted I don't think it's eye clean enough based on hat so was thinking of getting the f vs2 which will be for $10100  AUD. I has a look on the diamond review and couldn't see anything similar for that price once gst added, nor with a hca as good (although I know it's more than just hca) 

IMG-20180111-WA0020.jpg

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Having seen the higher res version, I'd be pretty confident that seen from the top the D/SI1 is going to be clean - this is way more than 10x magnification. From the side... no info (and it depends a lot on the design of the setting too).

Are you sure that the prices quoted to you include GST and duty? As far as I know, that's 15.5% (you pay GST on the duty too), which is of the same order of magnitude as a typical margin on a stone like this one.

Here's the F/VS2 from other vendors at basically the same price:

https://www.diamondreview.com/diamonds?sortOrder=price&sortDesc=1&fShape=Rnd&fCaratLo=1.21&fCaratHi=1.21&fColorLo=F&fColorHi=F&fClarityLo=VS2&fClarityHi=VS2&fCutLo=&fCutHi=poor&fDepthLo=58.0&fDepthHi=59.0&fTableLo=59.0&fTableHi=60.0&fSymLo=&fSymHi=poor&fPolLo=&fPolHi=poor&fCulLo=&fCulHi=vlarge&fFlrLo=&fFlrHi=vstrong&fPriceLo=0&fPriceHi=1000000&fLabGIA=1&fLabAGS=1&adv=1

And here's another one I like

https://www.b2cjewels.com/dd/8593638/round-diamond-D-color-VS2-Clarity?sku=8593638&utm_source=diamondreview.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=diamondreview.com

(Little note on the HCA: its author explicitly says that:

1. It should not be used to MAKE a selection, only to reject stones.

2. All scores below 2.0 should be treated as equivalent

so don't worry too much on that account)


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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It seems the dealer is willing to let me drop a $500 deposit for the vs2 and if it comes and I'm not happy, I can use the deposit towards another diamond with them but won't need to purchase that one from them as they're guaranteeing I'll be happy with the stone

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2 hours ago, davidelevi said:

Having seen the higher res version, I'd be pretty confident that seen from the top the D/SI1 is going to be clean - this is way more than 10x magnification. From the side... no info (and it depends a lot on the design of the setting too).

Are you sure that the prices quoted to you include GST and duty? As far as I know, that's 15.5% (you pay GST on the duty too), which is of the same order of magnitude as a typical margin on a stone like this one.

Here's the F/VS2 from other vendors at basically the same price:

https://www.diamondreview.com/diamonds?sortOrder=price&sortDesc=1&fShape=Rnd&fCaratLo=1.21&fCaratHi=1.21&fColorLo=F&fColorHi=F&fClarityLo=VS2&fClarityHi=VS2&fCutLo=&fCutHi=poor&fDepthLo=58.0&fDepthHi=59.0&fTableLo=59.0&fTableHi=60.0&fSymLo=&fSymHi=poor&fPolLo=&fPolHi=poor&fCulLo=&fCulHi=vlarge&fFlrLo=&fFlrHi=vstrong&fPriceLo=0&fPriceHi=1000000&fLabGIA=1&fLabAGS=1&adv=1

And here's another one I like

https://www.b2cjewels.com/dd/8593638/round-diamond-D-color-VS2-Clarity?sku=8593638&utm_source=diamondreview.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=diamondreview.com

(Little note on the HCA: its author explicitly says that:

1. It should not be used to MAKE a selection, only to reject stones.

2. All scores below 2.0 should be treated as equivalent

so don't worry too much on that account)

I don't think it comes out the same price converting back to AUD. The F VS2 is going for $10100 AUD

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3 hours ago, confuzzl3don3 said:

Doesn't seem that eye clean to me so was gonna go the f vs2. 

Shrink down the video to 2x life size (14 mm) rather than current 20x.

3 hours ago, confuzzl3don3 said:

It seems the dealer is willing to let me drop a $500 deposit for the vs2 and if it comes and I'm not happy, I can use the deposit towards another diamond with them but won't need to purchase that one from them as they're guaranteeing I'll be happy with the stone

That's not quite the same as "guaranteeing". 

2 hours ago, confuzzl3don3 said:

I don't think it comes out the same price converting back to AUD. The F VS2 is going for $10100 AUD

The two prices quoted are USD7946 and USD8210 - before any negotiation/expression of interest.

AUD USD.jpg

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Ahh yes, but then after adding at least 10% GST :( granted like u said they may negotiate. So if you had to would you pick the d si1 over the f vs2? How do I shrink the video down? Or was it more an expression of speech :rolleyes:

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