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Buying tomorrow ... need help! first time buyer


victory88
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So I've been ring shopping and finally found a stone that is close to what I'm looking for.  The jeweler found the diamond on rapnet and is having it shipped to him tomorrow

Oval
very good cut
2.52 carats
H
VS1
10.69 x 7.2
very good polish and very good symmetry

no bow tie according to him

I don't have a picture but any thoughts on whether this would be a good diamond for the price the guy is asking. He's asking $23,700 just for the diamond and $1800 for the custom ring/setting coming out to $25500. This price is only if I pay cash. If I pay another route, it's $27495 for diamond and ring/setting. Is this guy ripping me off or is this price in line for a diamond this size/quality.

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Maybe.  There’s not really enough info to go by.  Who graded the stone?  If GIA, have you got the report #?  If not GIA, who?

Who called the cut 'very good'?  GIA doesn't do this. 

The CC thing really is a pretty big deal.  Even if you weren't going to do that anyway. It tells me he really really doesn't want you to do that.  Why not?  It's going to cost him 2% or so.  ALL of the other reasons are bad (like limiting your returns, tax evasion, limiting warranties, etc.)  Before you get into the question of whether this is the right diamond, you need to answer if you want to be doing business there at all.

Edited by denverappraiser
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1. We don't know (you don't know?) what colour and clarity the diamond is likely to be without knowing who graded it.

2. Same +++ for the cut - as far as I know, there is no widespread, accepted way of grading ovals for cut.

3. As Neil pointed out, asking 8% for a credit card payment is a bad sign. Most stuff is between the seller, God and the IRS, but limiting your ability to return or making it very difficult to get your money back touches you very directly, and what's more on a stone on which you have very limited info.

IF it's graded by GIA or AGS, it's a reasonable amount - not cheap, but reasonable. You can easily find cheaper stones online. In fact, I think here it is, at $23,100 including credit card fees: http://shop.diamondideals.com/search/Detail.cfm?adv=diamondreview&&Lot_Number=152188--D02633-OV

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https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=6245074608

I found the GIA report!  thanks to an individual on pricescope.  this is the exact diamond.  i notice it says cavity and indentions.  are those inclusions visible to the naked eye?  also, this diamond has a very good polish and symmetry.  how important is that for an oval?

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Unlikely.  You've got several naturals and indented naturals, including a couple on the crown, so it's possible, but they did call it VS1, which is pretty high as clarity grades go.  

Ex polish and symmetry are nice, but for most people VG is just fine.  That said, what are the parameters that led you to that particular one?  Excellent P/S is among the easier specs to find these days if you are particularly concerned about it.  

A significant fraction of the stones in the database here and on Pricescope are also available through Rapnet.  That means your preferred jeweler can probably get the exact same stone if he/she wants.  The 'diamond finder' link at the top of the page works with a very similar engine to Rap's.  Ask if you find something and you're interested.  

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37 minutes ago, denverappraiser said:

Unlikely.  You've got several naturals and indented naturals, including a couple on the crown, so it's possible, but they did call it VS1, which is pretty high as clarity grades go.  

Ex polish and symmetry are nice, but for most people VG is just fine.  That said, what are the parameters that led you to that particular one?  Excellent P/S is among the easier specs to find these days if you are particularly concerned about it.  

A significant fraction of the stones in the database here and on Pricescope are also available through Rapnet.  That means your preferred jeweler can probably get the exact same stone if he/she wants.  The 'diamond finder' link at the top of the page works with a very similar engine to Rap's.  Ask if you find something and you're interested.  

So the jeweler I'm working with used rapnet to find this diamond.  I'm glad I joined a few forums bc I found this exact diamond listed cheaper.  He wanted 26.5k for it initially and dropped it 24k if I paid cash.  This same diamond is listed for 22800 on diamond ideal.  I'm meeting with him tomorrow.  Whats the best way for me to bring up the price issue without him getting defensive bc he told me he told me I won't be able to find this diamond cheaper anywhere.! Yet it's 1.5k cheaper online.  He's also pressuring me to buy tomorrow.  I'm going to take a step back and reevaluate my options.  

My parameters are an oval that's 2.5 carats or bigger.  H or better color.  Vs1 or better clarity.  No fluorescence.  Budget is 25k out the door including the ring/setting taxes etc

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In answer to your question of what to say to the guy, honesty works pretty well, even though you seem to be questioning his.  Show him/her the ads and see what they have to say.  Obviously, they’re making money, that’s why they’re in business.  The online guys are making money too by the way, they just have tighter margins.  It’s fairly typical that prices are cheaper online.  There’s a value-add by the local jeweler and one of the issues to decide if you think he/she is worth it.  Again, the question is whether you want to do business there AT ALL.  Picking the actual diamond is a secondary issue.  No one stocks these things so the jeweler is more like you ally in the hunt than a traditional negotiation.  They can get most of the same stones everyone shows you online, and the online guys can get most of the stones he shows (and in particular, anything on Rapnet).

If you're fair about the taxes, and you live in a jurisdiction with sales tax, you're not likely to make it, and you don't seem to have it here.  The cheapest mountings are a couple of hundred dollars and setting might be 'free' by a dealer who is selling the stone but bear in mind that they vary a lot and that the best craftsmen are rarely the cheapest.  This may not be the best place to squeeze out that last dollar.  If you buy the diamond one place and have someone else set it, expect a several hundred dollar fee for the setting labor.  

Edited by denverappraiser
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what are your guy's thoughts on this diamond?
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/oval-cut/2.51-carat-h-color-vs1-clarity-sku-3290071

it has a medium blue fluorescence. is this significant to the naked eye, in natural light or inside lighting?

also, would you consider this to have a significant bow tie? how would you compare this diamond to the this one below in the link that i was originally planning on buying.  the one on james allen is like 2k cheaper so if the compromise is fluorescence, which way would you guys sway?

https://segoma.com/v.php?type=inner&id=QLWCUZHCSS

I know it's difficult to answer some of these questions, but it really is helping me out.

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Fluorescence - especially medium blue - is not an issue to me at all. There is a theoretical risk that the stone has been graded leniently in colour, but that's generally reflected in the price. Visually, it will have no effect inside, and it may look slightly whiter outside.

The JA stone has a bit of a bow-tie, but as these things go I'd say it's at the attractive end; stones completely without a bow-tie sometimes look quite flat and without life.

I assume that the second video is that of the first stone, yes?

If that's the case, and if it were my money and I had to spend it on either of those two, I'd go with the JA diamond. It's a bit larger, I like its pattern more and it's significantly cheaper. Whether either one is actually "nice" is not something that can be reliably judged by looking at two videos taken by different people in potentially different conditions. Neither looks bad - but  both have very thick girdles.

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Fluorescence, even strong fluorescence, has no effect at all in UV free lighting environments.  That seems obvious, of course, how could it, but it turns out to be important.  UV free lighting includes incandescent lights, fluorescent lights, halogen lights, l.e.d. lights, sunlight diffused through most glass, shaded sunlight, and candlelight.  Pretty much everything except direct, unshaded sunlight and places where they’re deliberately making it high like the tanning salon, the disco, and the sterilization room.  If you live a fairly normal lifestyle, that’s about 98% of the time where there’s not even the potential for an effect.  Then there’s the fact that not even 2% of the fluorescent diamonds have a visible effect, even in direct sunlight.  It’s happens, and they’re called ‘overblue’, but they’re incredibly rare.  Combine these two and we're talking about a very obscure phenomena that you'll have to go out of your way to find.  The test is super simple if you want to avoid it though.  Take it out in the sun and have a look at it.  This is one of the reasons you want a return period (you are insisting on some sort of a return period, right?)

Edited by denverappraiser
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On 9/21/2017 at 8:52 AM, denverappraiser said:

So what did you pick (and where did you get it)?

I actually ended up buying the James Allen one posted above.  It wasn't available on their website, but I found it on diamondideals website.  I believe the owner, Laurent, actually posts on this forum (wonderful guy btw).  Anyways, bought it today and I hope he does a fantastic job with the setting!  Thank you all for your help, if it wasn't for you guys and the guys on pricescope, I was going to end up buying a diamond that I was being pressured into by a jeweler here in Dallas.  I never told laurent this, but that is how I came across his website.  I inquired about the diamond in the first post but he mentioned that the diamond was out being viewed by another vendor.  That coincidentally happened to the guy showing me the diamond he picked out for me.  The guy had quoted me an initial price of 28k(which he told me no one would beat) with a white gold setting and then came down to 25.5k if I paid cash but he wanted it that minute and wouldn't even let me think about it.  I felt very uncomfortable.  I ended up finding another diamond on Laurent's site that I liked better which happened to be the James Allen one above.  Funny how these things work out.  Thanks again.

 

Edited by victory88
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