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Choosing Between 2 Diamonds - Cut Vs Clarity - Both Very Pretty


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Hi All, 

I am new to the forum! We bought this stone which I am unsure about but have the opportunity to change. 
F VS2 1.7 carat -  HCA score 3 - Pic below on finger

Depth 60.3 Tablle 60 Crown Angle 33.4 Pavillion Angle 41.2


7.72 - 7.78 x 4.68 mm

 3% girdle - very clean - nothing on the girdle super sparkly. Cannot see a thing with the loupe.
E VS2 1.75 carat GIA  - cost £1.3k more HCA score 1.6 - pic below with details
  Depth 62.2 Table 56 Crown Angle 35 Pavillion Angle 40.8



7.75  7.71  4.81 


Quite a busy table. Eye clean but you can see several inclusion.s with the loupe.


The above diamonds are eye clean. The first is much cleaner with no inclusions on the table .The second has a higher carat (but smaller spread. better cut and colour (barely noticeable).


I am looking for advice on which I should choose? The dealer thinks I'm a nutter for focusing on the maths.  I keep looking online and the second has the super ideal cut.


 Will it really have so much better light return, fire and scintillation to make up for the costs and inclusions in the table? I've included some pics


Help please! I would appreciate any advice / guidance as this has been on my mind for the past few days :(




Edited by Helphelphelp
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@Kim - Welcome!

I doubt you'd see the difference in colour or clarity between the two diamonds - if anything, I suspect the concentrated bunch of crystals in the E colour stone would be more easily visible with a loupe than the spread out feathers in the F. The colour difference won't be visible to anyone once the diamonds are set.

On cut, yes, they will look different, and there is no doubt that on paper the more expensive stone is also better cut, but I wouldn't say that the cheaper stone looks "bad". Whether you even see the difference will be down to a lot of factors, not least of which are whether the stones are scrupulously clean and whether they are next to each other.




New comments, given the further details you have added:


Can you actually see both stones? I agree with the dealer that there is no point in obsessing about the maths (and at this stage you should totally disregard the HCA), but if you can see them both (as it seems you can), do you like one better than the other?


Do a blind test - ask someone to come with you to the jeweller, and put both diamonds on a tray, without knowing what they are and asking the dealer to not say anything (ideally go in another room... if s/he trusts the stones are safe - sometimes it's not easy). Does one "speak" to you more than the other? If so, go for that one. Even if it's more expensive. Regret tends to be very expensive.


On clarity: my personal opinion is that what you can/cannot see with a loupe doesn't matter, other than for pricing purposes. Even I don't go around with a loupe fixed to my eye, and I don't know anyone who does - my wife and I enjoy having (she wearing and me seeing) several I1 diamonds... that are eye-clean, but definitely not if you look at them with a loupe!

Edited by davidelevi
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Hi Davide,


Thank you so much for your comments! I can see them both - tomorrow!!


I feel like I cannot trust myself (my own novice eyes) so maybe better to get the OH to do the blind test.


I basically watched this video - 

 and realised that I couldn't see the middle star much on my stone which has made me v paranoid. Ive taken repeated pics of it too . In the attached photo, you can clearly see the star in the middle in black which is taken from the video. In my picture of the diamond on the finger the stars are much less defined. 

I'm just worried I've made a mistake not going for a more "ideal cut" proportioned diamond.


Any other input much appreciated!




Edited by Helphelphelp
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Hi  Furqan Thanks for chipping in! I feel I need all the help I can get. I'm thinking of shipping in the one on my finger pic for the one with the black background. And yes i do mean the centre table reflection:


This one I have:
F VS2 1.7 carat -  HCA score 3 - Depth 60.3 Tablle 60 Crown Angle 33.4 Pavillion Angle 41.2. Size 7.72 - 7.78 x 4.68 mm. 3% girdle - very clean - nothing on the girdle super sparkly. Cannot see a thing with the loupe.
This one I might exchange for today:
E VS2 1.75 carat - cost £1.3k more HCA score 1.6 - pic below with details
  Depth 62.2 Table 56 Crown Angle 35 Pavillion Angle 40.8 - Size  7.75  7.71  4.81 ..Quite a busy table. Eye clean but you can see several inclusions with the loupe.
Thoughts welcome!

Edited by Helphelphelp
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Yes I will do. I'm actually seeing this one too: GIA# 2248847732 - https://eanchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/Round/GIA-Certified-1-73-Carat-E-Color-VS2-Clarity-Diamond-43897Z90Z 

This is £1000 more expensive than the current. It has a better enchanted diamond score 96.9 (mine has 93.7 - the E VS2 i posted above has 100%) but HCA is 4!!! girdle is thicker so the higher carat is wasted as the size is smaller than the F 1.70.



I feel like I'll stick to the original most likely but want to be 110% sure I've made the right decision. I'll keep you all posted!



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Bear in mind that the setting does change things (including the visibility of arrows/contrast patterns)... and I would be very cautious about marketing reviews.

Hi @davidelevi - was just going through this thread again due to indecisiveness. Do you think H&A marketing is a bit of a gimmick? Blue Nike Signature Idea, Brian Gavin H&A and Whiteflash A cut above are examples of these types of diamonds who claim optimal symmetry and therefore much better performance. 



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The level of gimmickry depends on the claim made:


"H&A diamonds have superb symmetry" -> factual truth

"H&A diamonds have better brightness, scintillation and fire than ANY other cut" -> undiluted BS


Symmetry of pattern has very little to do with brightness, scintillation and fire, though many people find symmetrical patterns more attractive (which is why people find images within a kaleidoscope "interesting", while the little pieces of glass seen without the mirrors aren't particularly interesting). In addition, while H&A presence guarantees symmetry, it's by no means the only type of symmetry possible with a diamond, and H&A proportions - while very pleasing - are not the only ones to be pleasing (and H&A proportions - angles etc. - without "perfect" symmetry can still look beautiful).


Part of the problem is that the marketing spin can turn true statements into gimmick quite easily. For example:


"It takes more to cut a diamond to H&A proportions than to cut an averagely cut diamond" -> totally true

"It takes 10x as much time to cut an H&A than to cut any other round diamond" -> totally false. There are diamonds cut to the same level of precision that - for a number of reasons - do not display H&A. They will take the same amount of time to cut (and the difference in effort between an H&A-level of accuracy and an otherwise well cut diamond is not a factor of 10).


Final reflection (ha ha): H&A (and to some extent other reflector imaging methods) is a bit like IQ tests: people who score highly on them are good at doing IQ tests, not necessarily "more intelligent". Similarly, a perfect H&A image is an image obtained using arbitrary criteria (both for production and assessment of the image) - not an objective evaluation of "beauty". (Same, with even more added caveats, is valid for most other so-called cut scoring systems).

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In addition to what davide said, 'Generally' speaking true H&A diamonds are more beautiful than run of the mill triple excellents rounds. Are these the only beautiful diamonds? No. Is it worth the premium? Depends on how much the premium is.

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This is fascinating and I totally get the logic. Is fire, sparkle and scintillation not more to do with the Crown / Pavillion angle though?  H&A would give you symmetry which would give more even distribution of stuff but even does not equal beauty.  


If it is CA and PA related then surely targeting a more symmetrical stone with a 54-57 table, 61-62.5% depth, PA 40.6-41 and CA 34-35 is likely to generate the best of all worlds?


I was recommended this one on enchanted diamonds and have an option to exchange my current stone to this: https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R175-395294373


Problem is there is no idealscope image etc

If I go ahead, it would be a blind purchase and I would have to seriously trust the maths... This cost's roughly the same as my current stone and the jeweller won't let me return it. 


The jeweller thinks I'm mad as the table isn't clean and there is an inclusion at 11 o'clock.. I have a day to decide! :wacko:

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Yes, angles are critical. Note that H&A is a combination of symmetry AND proportions, so your "symmetrical stone" with x, y, z parameters is quite likely (not necessarily, but quite likely) to show some form of H&A when viewed through an appropriate viewer. Whether the absence of a "good" (insert your definition) H&A image when observed through an appropriate viewer is at all visible in real life compared to "normal" symmetry and those proportions is an open question... (and part of the "is it gimmickry or not?" debate).


What I think is less open to question is that the ED stone is very well cut, BUT not cut very differently (on paper, and probably in reality!) from the one you looked at earlier. I don't think the inclusion will be visible once set, but since you already saw a 35/40.8/56 and decided it wasn't worth the upgrade price over your current stone, what makes you think that this one will be in any way different?

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Again how do you know this stone is better than your existing one? And if it isn't what have you wasted all this time on?


You're analyzing too much and I wouldn't buy a stone with a depth of more than 62% and a girdle of more than 3.5% and a table with black inclusions if I am 'that choosy'.


If you want to buy that has something of everything buy something like this:


Depth : 59-61

Table: 55 - 57

Color : F - G

Clarity: VVS2 - VS1

PA: 40.6 OR 40.8

CA: 34.5

Floro: None

LH: 75% on GIA scale

Triple Excellent cut.


No open inclusions (feather, knot, etch)

No abnormal tint. (brown, green, grey)

No graining remarks.



Now can you find it easily and readily? May be

May be not



Should you stop your find now? I think so. But that's your decision.

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You guys are so great for working with me on this one.  I got on the wrong train today stressing about this issue and everyone in the real world I try to engage with on this issue thinks I'm bananas!


Davide - The upgrade cost me 3k USD more which really put me off! This one is like a few hundred. I think because of the black inclusion which my other half is not keen on. What if I'm missing out on Fire and Scintillation that I didn't know about due to not having a steeper crown & shallower pavillion angle?  I don't want to regret the decision because I'm a deeply Mathematical person. And clearly a bit obsessive...


Furqan, The new ED diamond is below 62 depth and has a 3.5% girdle. But yes it has 2 black inclusions - one in the table - http://www.stonehdfile.com/ViewHD.aspx?d=317509837


yes I am spending a lot of time over this for sure. My existing has feathers near the girdle so some durability issues from what I've read. In terms of the new stone.... I don't know. The black inclusions will be noticeable in a 1.7 carat I think. I am told this stone has better light performance than my stone.  On my current stone - light leakage is clearly visible along the edge of the table facet. This, again I'm told reduces brightness and light return.


It's so weird. No one in London who looks at Diamonds knows about the HCA or H&A diamonds. Or even what an ASET scope is. Without a doubt I am over analysing!!! I still don't know what to do though :( My username feels very apt right now

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