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chckenny

Urgent Advice Needed

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Hello,

 

Would anyone be able to advice me on the below two SI2 diamond please?

 

One has more crystal in the middle while the another one has more feather and needle in the edge. Which one would you go for please?

 

post-135396-0-00827100-1452699308_thumb.png

 

post-135396-0-89870700-1452699316_thumb.png

 

Thank you in advance for the valuable advice.

 

regards

kenny

 

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That's tough with limited information and especially not being able to see the stones.  Si2 is a big category and you simply cannot tell what the visual impacts are by looking at a cert plot.

 

Having said that, and assuming the cut quality is equivalent, you have two issues.  Eye-clean and durability.  The diamond with the crystals may not be eye clean. How much that bothers you is very much a personal issue.  Many diamonds that are not eye clean can still be very brilliant and pretty, and most people will not notice the imperfections in normal casual observation.  The diamond with the feathers may indeed be eye-clean, but may give rise to some durability concerns.  Feathers are separations in the crystal lattice that usually come to the surface.  At the girdle or at points they can elevate durability risks for setting and for wear.  

 

Usually a high risk round will be graded in the imperfect range.  But you just have to see the stone to make that assessment.  I would highly advise that you use the services of a qualified professional to give you that advice.


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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Unfortunately there is not enough information to make that determination.  As Texas points out, there is the eye visibility issue as well as a durability issue to consider.  If you are not able to see these diamonds in person, can you request close up images of both stones?  What size are they as this will have a big impact on eye visibility as well?


Laurent George
Diamond Ideals
New York City

www.diamondideals.com
212-207-4845
laurent@diamondideals.com

 

 

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Thanks both for your advices. Much appreciated. They are both 1.5 3ex none. I am having a hard time picking in between. In regards to the durability, is it real that it can crack? As i thought diamond is so hard that cant break.

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Diamond is the hardest known natural substance, but it is not indestructible.  The carbon lattice has different resistance to impacts depending on direction.  A well aimed blow along a certain plane can cause a diamond to cleave.  Imperfections such as feathers can elevate durabity risk, depending on many factors.

 

Since it's a big stone and the feathers are the grade setting features in the diamond, and since some or at the girdle plane where prongs need to be placed under some pressure and where impacts could occur during wear, you should definitely have an expert look at it before you are committed to the purchase.


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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Regarding the durability, in the very rare event that the feather reached the surface and/or your diamond split into 2, I would think your jeweler's warranty or even insurance would at least cover that... 

Edited by boombeacher

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It would be a mistake to assume coverage from the jeweler.  It is however possible to get personal insurance coverage for a loose stone.  Only companies specializing in personal jewelry would provide it.  I know that Jewelers Mutual does offer such coverage.

 

It is not rare for a feather to reach the surface.  It is rare for it not to.


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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It would be a mistake to assume coverage from the jeweler. 

 

 

Agreed, although most retailers have this covered in their fine print.  

 

 

It is not rare for a feather to reach the surface.  It is rare for it not to.

 

Given that feathers are some of the most common inclusions from what I've read, I would challenge you and say this isn't true, again, based on what I've read. Small feathers are probably nothing to worry about. If they were everybody would be swapping out their diamonds and making insurance claims, but I personally have never heard of that before. 

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Feathers are very common and usually nothing to worry about in terms of durability.  But they are indeed breaks that usually come to the surface.

 

From GIA @  http://4csblog.gia.edu/2013/diamond-inclusions-defined

 

Feather
General trade term for a break in a gemstone, often white and feathery in appearance.


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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It is not rare for a feather to reach the surface.  It is rare for it not to.

 

Given that feathers are some of the most common inclusions from what I've read, I would challenge you and say this isn't true, again, based on what I've read. 

 

2 interesting "grading points" from GIA:

 

1. A feather by definition reaches the surface. Otherwise it's called a crystal since it's assumed that "something" must have caused the internal fracture (stupid, I know, but that's the way GIA grades).

 

2. Equally by definition, an SI2 inclusion does not carry (in the opinion of the graders) significant durability or integrity risks, since those would imply an I(1, 2, or 3) clarity grade. This said, I entirely second Brian's suggestion of having the stone seen by an expert.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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It is not rare for a feather to reach the surface.  It is rare for it not to.

 

Given that feathers are some of the most common inclusions from what I've read, I would challenge you and say this isn't true, again, based on what I've read. 

 

2 interesting "grading points" from GIA:

 

1. A feather by definition reaches the surface. Otherwise it's called a crystal since it's assumed that "something" must have caused the internal fracture (stupid, I know, but that's the way GIA grades).

 

2. Equally by definition, an SI2 inclusion does not carry (in the opinion of the graders) significant durability or integrity risks, since those would imply an I(1, 2, or 3) clarity grade. This said, I entirely second Brian's suggestion of having the stone seen by an expert.

 

 

Those are interesting Davide.  Do you have the link to that?  

 

From personal experience, I generally agree with GIA on point  #2 with regard to non-pointed stones.   However, I do feel that feathers in Si stones located at points indeed pose an elevated durability risk.  Clearly diamond graders are not also diamond setters :))


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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Hi Bryan, to 1 - my original source is this discussion:

 

http://www.diamondreview.com/forum/topic/9876-arithmetic-off-on-reported-measurements-does-this-change-anything/#entry50945

 

I don't have a recent copy of GIA's grading manual, and I have tried to find this on the GIA site to no avail (to see if there were any other oddities such as this one), but I see no reason to doubt Neil.

 

To 2, yes, absolutely; that was trying to be my message too!


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Sorry Bryan, I still disagree. 

 

http://www.pricescope.com/journal/diamond_feather_inclusions_durability_risk

 

http://www.jewelrynotes.com/what-are-diamond-feathers-and-how-do-they-affect-clarity/

 

"Feathers are unlikely to grow bigger as a result of normal wear and tear or even if you bump your diamond accidentally."

 

Like I said, if this was a real problem we'd be hearing about it more and diamonds with feathers would never sell. 

 
 

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Well Boombeacher, you would not be the first to disagree with me on an internet forum (or elsewhere for that matter)!!  

 

But I am curious as to exactly what that I have said that you disagree with.  A quick glance at a few of the links you referenced seems generally in agreement with what I have said.

 

Scratching my head here   :huh:  


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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I disagree with your statement that it is more rare than not for feathers to reach the surface and cause instability.

 

Well, let's break that apart, because I did not make that particular statement.

 

I did say it was rare for a feather not to break the surface.  And the two statements that Davide and I cited from GIA supports that:

 

Feather

General trade term for a break in a gemstone, often white and feathery in appearance

 

1. A feather by definition reaches the surface. 

 

Secondly, I said and I quote:

Feathers are very common and usually nothing to worry about in terms of durability.

 

Lastly, I said that I agree in general with the idea (as expressed by GIA in the second statement Davide posted) that with regard to non-pointed shapes, feathers in the Si range typically do not present an elevated durability risk.  With pointed stones that statement is clearly wrong from my experience.

 

Therefore, with any diamond having a feather or feathers as their grade setting characteristic,  at Si2 level (which could be borderline imperfect), it is best to have an independent expert examine the stone to verify that durability is not significantly compromised.

 

If you still disagree with me, the issue is very easy to solve.  Just ask any diamond setter if feathers can cause durability concerns!


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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Would you say a feather is likely to cause a chip or break? Because if you do, then you are wrong. 

 

http://www.pricescope.com/forum/rockytalky/engagement-diamond-feather-issue-t126562.html

 

"A feather, especially any sort of inclusion which opens on the surface is a weaker area of the diamond.  If it is going to break, chip or cleave, such a weakened area is a potentially higher risk zone.  In 40+ years, I have seen just a few diamonds which really seemed doomed to be readily broken in use and far fewer which actually broke.  Many more diamond become chipped slightly around the girlde and/or abraded on the crown from years of harsh wear and improper storage rubbing other diamonds in moving jewelry cases.  Few really suffer big, important damage in use.

Insurance covers such drastic loss anyway for nearly all such major losses.  Such major losses are relatively rare."

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May I just point out that:

 

1, People's experience may vary

 

2. Likelihood is a relative factor. All else being equal, having a pre-existing fracture makes further breakage more likely. How much more likely is a different question, and it depends on a lot of factors

 

3. There are feathers that are graded VVS, and those that are graded I3. They are not the same stuff (see point 2). SI2, which is what is being discussed in this thread is somewhere in between, and it is a place where - again by definition of "SI" and "I" clarity grades - a grey area exists specifically with reference to durability and integrity.

 

4. It doesn't seem to me that anyone here (certainly not myself or Bryan) is suggesting that any SI2 feather is automatically a huge risk. We are both pointing out that it's a good idea if an expert (preferably a setter) sees a stone with SI feathers, especially if these are in corners/points. "Not huge"  or "relatively rare" does not mean zero, and all the threads that you quoted are quite consistent with this point of view. 

 

(5. Pricescope and other diamond forums are far from being an unfailing authority, just like this forum is not one - and theoretically posting links or mentioning these other forums is not allowed by this forum's rules)

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Would you say a feather is likely to cause a chip or break? Because if you do, then you are wrong. 

 

http://www.pricescope.com/forum/rockytalky/engagement-diamond-feather-issue-t126562.html

 

"A feather, especially any sort of inclusion which opens on the surface is a weaker area of the diamond.  If it is going to break, chip or cleave, such a weakened area is a potentially higher risk zone.  In 40+ years, I have seen just a few diamonds which really seemed doomed to be readily broken in use and far fewer which actually broke.  Many more diamond become chipped slightly around the girlde and/or abraded on the crown from years of harsh wear and improper storage rubbing other diamonds in moving jewelry cases.  Few really suffer big, important damage in use.

Insurance covers such drastic loss anyway for nearly all such major losses.  Such major losses are relatively rare."

 

First of all, it's best to discuss and not put words in anyone else's mouth.  I try to be precise in my statements, so you can simply go back and re-read what I have said if you are interested in understanding my viewpoint.  And while you are at it, re-read what GIA has said as well as other statements made by the experts in the materials you have referenced.  I think you will find plenty of statements that are in line with what I have said.

 

And again, if you wish to believe that feathers are a non-issue from a durability standpoint, just go with that.  If you want to get the perspective of people who live and die by durability issues go interview ANY diamond setter.

 

It is not my intention to stoke fear about feathers.  My company sells plenty of them.   I have been very clear about durability NOT being a concern for the vast majority of diamonds Si and above.  At the same time, I want to keep it real.  A consumer should evaluate a diamond for many different factors, durability being one of them where potentially applicable.

 

For almost 40 years I have been around gemstones and diamonds, and in that time I have owned and/or operated shops with dozens of diamond setters setting thousands of diamonds.  So, I do have a little experience in this area.

Edited by Texas Leaguer

Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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Hi all, just a gentle reminder, please keep the discussion civil. Remember -- Be Nice.


Hermann

Moderator

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For almost 40 years I have been around gemstones and diamonds, and in that time I have owned and/or operated shops with dozens of diamond setters setting thousands of diamonds.  So, I do have a little experience in this area.

 

 

I am well-aware of your expertise and I appreciate it. My point is as such though: How many damaged diamonds have you seen returned to you/your company in your career, that were suspected to have originated from a feather? Do you see where I am going? 

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For almost 40 years I have been around gemstones and diamonds, and in that time I have owned and/or operated shops with dozens of diamond setters setting thousands of diamonds.  So, I do have a little experience in this area.

 

 

I am well-aware of your expertise and I appreciate it. My point is as such though: How many damaged diamonds have you seen returned to you/your company in your career, that were suspected to have originated from a feather? Do you see where I am going? 

 

 

Not many at this company.  We deal primarily in Si1 and above and except for our princess program, mostly non-pointed stones. And believe me, we look VERY carefully at feathers in the corners of princess cuts that we buy.


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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Hi all

...sorry chckenny...this thread has gotten way off your initial query...

With not much info to go on, if your vendor says there aren't any durability issues (which is quite rare for a round), I'd go for the first one - if you can cover the inclusions you'll have a nice eye clean SI2 :)  

 

Now...about the tangent this thread has taken...I'll chime in with my 2cents as well... <_<

I'll have to back Texas Leaguer on this one - I'm of the same opinion as he is - the reason we don't have that many come back broken is because we don't buy them in the first place. Having had 10s of thousands of stones pass through my hands, one of the first things I reject when buying princess cuts for stock are ones with low SI1 or SI2 feathers on the corners - they may be perfectly fine (the polishing wheel is a lot harder on corners than setting), but who want's to risk it when you can put that stone down and buy the next one in the pile. 

And like he has pointed out a number of times on this thread, ask any diamond setter how many corners they've broken in their career...you'd be surprised at how common it is (mind you they're usually smalls and/or lower quality goods for mass market chains where there is a bit more buffer to cover breakage). A lot of diamond setters won't even go near an SI2 corner in stones of any real size, so it can be tough to find someone that will even do the work...and then they'll only do it if they're not liable for breakage... so it's not the setter who has broken the stone that has to eat the cost of repair/replacement...it's us (setters live in a beautiful world where they don't have to take responsibility :D ).

I'm retail now, but in a previous life I did B2B wholesale, and the number of my retail clients that used to call me up looking for a replacement stone after breaking a corner/point was fairly significant - - so yes, in most cases a corner SI2 will be fine, and you can probably pick it up for a significant discount (which is why some retailers chance it), but as a consumer, be sure you know what your purchasing, and you're willing to accept the risk.

Hope this has contributed to the 'real world' view of SI2 corner feathers beyond what has been 'read online'  :D


Australian Diamond Network

www.AustralianDiamondNetwork.com.au

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Interesting. You seem to be only referring to princess or square cuts and corner feathers though. Seeing how OP was interested in round brilliants, I was also thinking of RBs all along in this thread. Therefore I'm still not convinced that 99% of feathers are something to lose sleep over in a RB.

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