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sparkled

Budget For Princess Cut?

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Hi, new to this forum........... lots of great info!  I am in the market for a 2 - 2.5 carat princess cut diamond, one that is very sparkly.  What can I reasonably expect to pay?  Thanks in advance for advice.

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Anything from less than $3000 (for a good L-M CE 2 carat stone) to over $50,000 for a 2.50 D/IF. You need to sort out quite a few things before you start looking at "reasonable prices"...

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Davide,

I hope you don't mind if I translate.

Diamonds come in a range of colors and clarities as well as artificially enhanced qualities.  On the low end, as Davide alludes to, you can get a yellowish looking stone (L to M or even lower in color) that has bee clarity enhanced for a very small budget.  On the other hand, if you are looking for the whitest, D, and cleanest, IF (internally flawless), then the sky might be the limit.  In most cases, people today tend to purchase untreated diamonds that appear white without spending money on the whitest and have some inclusions but not enough to be seen with the naked eye.  Translated into GIA nomenclature, that give us something like an F G or H color in a VS2 or SI1 clarity.  Here is such a search: http://www.diamondreview.com/diamonds/?sortOrder=price&sortDesc=1&fShape=Prin&fCaratLo=2.00&fCaratHi=2.59&fColorLo=F&fColorHi=H&fClarityLo=VS2&fClarityHi=SI1&fCutLo=&fCutHi=poor&fDepthLo=50.0&fDepthHi=80.0&fTableLo=40.0&fTableHi=80.0&fSymLo=&fSymHi=poor&fPolLo=&fPolHi=poor&fCulLo=&fCulHi=vlarge&fFlrLo=&fFlrHi=vstrong&fPriceLo=0&fPriceHi=1000000&fLabGIA=1

As you can see, the price ranges from about $10,000 to about $36,000 depending on size, color/clarity combination and cut.


Laurent George
Diamond Ideals
New York City

www.diamondideals.com
212-207-4845
laurent@diamondideals.com

 

 

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I don't mind at all, George. In fact I have been downright rude and I need to thank you for the translation.

 

sparkled - regardless of whether you take my rather brutal paragraph or George's much better explained version, the fact is that you still have a very broad range of prices, just looking at the most common colour and clarity combinations. Then you add the cut variable, which on princess cuts is rather more difficult to get a grip on than with rounds... and the result is total confusion.

 

May I suggest that you try to reverse the process?

 

1. Go out and see diamonds. See different colours, clarities, sizes, shapes and cut qualities. Ideally with the intended recipient, so you get an idea of what she/he likes - at the end of the day, she/he will be the one wearing it.
 

2. Once you are somewhat clear about what you (both) like and what you don't, then start asking the budget question. You may find yourself suddenly willing to sacrifice size for the very best cut, or clarity for a larger diamond, or...

 

3. When you have a clear(ish) idea about the diamond characteristics and the budget, then look for a dealer that can help you. Particularly with princess cuts, you will need someone who is prepared to give you more information on cut than what's available on a GIA report.

 

4. Only then start checking out specific stones.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Thank you both for the reply.  I am thinking of something in the middle - not top of the line but certainly not enhanced, something very sparkly though.  Also can you please explain the significance of the culet and also the girdle and what affect they have on the stone, or tell me where I can find that info?  Thanks!

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A culet is a tiny facet on the point at the back. It's there because of durability problems during the cutting process. That said, improvements in equipment have made them unnecessary. They're unusual on a stone cut in the last 40 years or more. Among other things, princess cuts are a relatively recent design and you'd be hard pressed to find one with a culet even if you looked.

Edited by denverappraiser

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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The girdle, which is the widest part of the stone, should not be too thin.  Princess cuts have fairly fragile corners.  If the girdle is too thin (very thin, extremely thin), you might have an issue with durability.  On other extreme, a very or extremely thick girdle will hide part of the weight, giving you a look that would be smaller that what it could be.


Laurent George
Diamond Ideals
New York City

www.diamondideals.com
212-207-4845
laurent@diamondideals.com

 

 

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I will add to what Davide said about cut quality complicating the issue with regard to princess cut.  A GIA report contains insufficient information relating to how a princess is actually handling light.  For a princess graded for light performance you will need to look at diamonds with reports from AGS Laboratories.  Unfortunately they are not that easy to find, but they are out there if you are diligent in your search.


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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Thank you Davide!  Glad to be here.  I have read several of your very informative posts.  I know consumers appreciate it.  


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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One thing to keep in mind is that the majority of AGS graded Ideal princess cuts have small table facet percentages in the 62-68% range. In the eyes of some consumers this makes the stone appear smaller than its actual carat size.

 

I would advise that you visit your local jewelers and compare these to AGS and GIA graded Princess cuts that have table facet percentages in the 70-73% range and see which you prefer most.

Edited by barry

Barry
www.exceldiamonds.com
@Exceldiamonds on Twitter

Excel Diamonds on Facebook

sales@exceldiamonds.com
1-866-829-8600
1-212-921-0635

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One thing to keep in mind is that the majority of AGS graded Ideal princess cuts have small table facet percentages in the 62-68% range. In the eyes of some consumers this makes the stone appear smaller than its actual carat size.

 

I would advise that you visit your local jewelers and compare these to AGS and GIA graded Princess cuts that have table facet percentages in the 70-73% range and see which you prefer most.

This is true.  In order to have the light performance levels necessary to achieve AGS Ideal, a princess cut needs more crown than the typical GIA make has.  However, weight ratio is also taken into account in the performance grading. Therefore you may find that a given AGS stone does not appear smaller than many GIA stones.

 

I also agree with the advice to look at both and see what appeals to you.


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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Further to Barry's comment about table size (which I instinctively agreed with), I decided to do a quick scan of a the rap database.  I looked at both GIA and AGS in a default search of 1.00-1.05 princess.  For GIA I filtered by EX EX with the idea that these would tend to have the best overall cut quality as extra care was taken in crafting them.  For AGS I filtered only Ideal.

 

Interestingly, 1/3 of the GIA stones had tables under 70.  And 16 out of 21 AGS stones had tables of 70 or above.  

 

So, conventional wisdom may not be accurate.

 

When you look at GIA princess without filtering for pol/sym, you quickly see that the vast majority of tables are well over 70 and a large percentage of depths are in the 80's and even 90s.


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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When you look at GIA princess without filtering for pol/sym, you quickly see that the vast majority of tables are well over 70 and a large percentage of depths are in the 80's and even 90s.

Just in case anyone forgot that the princess cut was developed for yield (weight retention from the rough crystal)... ;)

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Welcome to DR, Bryan.

 

Your review of current inventory listings suggests that consumers do prefer the slightly larger table percentages with 2/3 of the GIA listings showing Table percentages of 70+,  and that Cutters who submit to AGS for the Ideal Cut grade have made this accommodation as has the AGS.


Barry
www.exceldiamonds.com
@Exceldiamonds on Twitter

Excel Diamonds on Facebook

sales@exceldiamonds.com
1-866-829-8600
1-212-921-0635

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Welcome to DR, Bryan.

 

Your review of current inventory listings suggests that consumers do prefer the slightly larger table percentages with 2/3 of the GIA listings showing Table percentages of 70+,  and that Cutters who submit to AGS for the Ideal Cut grade have made this accommodation as has the AGS.

Thanks for the welcome Barry.

 

My interpretation of the sample data is a little different. There is a convergence seen in this limited comparison.  And based on this the sweetspot for really well cut princess in terms of table size seems to be upper 6o's to low 70's.  

 

As Davide mentioned, historically princess cuts have been cut by mainstream cutters to capitalize on yield, without as much emphasis on overall beauty. What the sample suggests to me is that those cutters manufacturing GIA princess to the highest level craftsmanship (EX EX) are moving away from excessive tables and depths seen in the broader market and moving close or into the most common AGS Ideal proportion sets.


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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It does appear that AGS has adjusted their proportion sets to include slightly larger table percentages within the Ideal Cut grade.


Barry
www.exceldiamonds.com
@Exceldiamonds on Twitter

Excel Diamonds on Facebook

sales@exceldiamonds.com
1-866-829-8600
1-212-921-0635

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I'm not sure about that.  The ideal cut grade is  determined by ray tracing the 3D model of the diamond and a calculation of any deductions for light performance deficiencies.  It is not specifically tied to any particular proportion sets.

 

There may be some trends in the way cutters are approaching the goal of hitting AGS Ideal, and as a result we may be seeing more tables around 70 than before.  I doubt that is heavily consumer driven, although that may be part of it.  I just think you lose too much in performance in cutting in the traditional way.

 

I believe that if GIA came out with an overall cut grade, which they have said for years they are working on, you would see a big shift in this direction and there would be a much bigger production of really nice princess cuts on the market.  We certainly saw that when they released their cut grade for rounds.

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Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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Sorry if I was not clearer. I understand the MO of AGS is via ray tracing.

 

Years ago the range of AGS Ideal Cut Princess table %'s were consistently 62-67.  A 68-69% table was rare. . 

 

I believe that Cutters have adapted their design to cut larger Tables based on consumer preference and still obtain the AGS Ideal Cut grade for princess. No doubt, for the "Ideal" light performance requirements of ray tracing, the larger table %'s probably come with slight adjustments in pavilion facet angle as well as the brillianteering.

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Barry
www.exceldiamonds.com
@Exceldiamonds on Twitter

Excel Diamonds on Facebook

sales@exceldiamonds.com
1-866-829-8600
1-212-921-0635

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Sorry if I was not clearer. I understand the MO of AGS is via ray tracing.

 

Years ago the range of AGS Ideal Cut Princess table %'s were consistently 62-67.  A 68-69% table was rare. . 

 

I believe that Cutters have adapted their design to cut larger Tables based on consumer preference and still obtain the AGS Ideal Cut grade for princess. No doubt, for the "Ideal" light performance requirements of ray tracing, the larger table %'s probably come with slight adjustments in pavilion facet angle as well as the brillianteering.

That certainly could be the case.  It could also be that cutters are still learning how to maximize yield within the AGS Ideal constraints.  It's still a relatively new standard and relatively few cutters have worked with it extensively. 

  • Like 1

Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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