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Dnorris

Ideal Princess Cut

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What would be a good purchase price for this diamond?

 

 

Also the table seems small but it's rated as ideal. Is that normal?

 

AGS#: 9152602

Report Type: Diamond Qualityâ„¢ Document

Shape and Style: Square Modified Brilliant

Measurements: 5.58 x 5.50 x 4.10 mm

Cut Grade: AGS Ideal 0

Color Grade: AGS 0.5 (E)

Clarity Grade: AGS 4 (VS2)

Carat Weight 1.010

Fluorescence: Negligible

Comments:

 

 

 

"AGSL 9152602" has been inscribed on the girdle of this diamond.

 

Pinpoints are not shown.

Polish:

Symmetry:

Table: 58.4%

Crown Angle: 35.5

Crown Height: 13.5%

Girdle: 0.5% to 1.2%

Pavilion Angle: 40.2

Pavilion Depth: 60.3%

Star Length:

Lower Girdle Length:

Total Depth: 74.5%

Culet: Pointed

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Table - pretty normal for an "AGS Ideal" graded stone (which incidentally is the only well defined "ideal cut" princess).

 

It's a different look than the more prevalent "70/70", and honestly I like the "AGS look" much better, even if it's slightly less bright.

 

Price: AGS graded stones are rare, and tend to be premium cut (and price!). A "good price" depends very strongly on where you are buying it from (Tiffany does not have the same prices as Joe's Dirt Cheap Diamonds) and what you actually want.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Thanks! I'm actually buying this stone second hand and offered $5,000 for the ring. It's set in 18k and has about an additional carat of lesser quality diamonds in a split shank halo setting.

 

Just wanted to make sure I was getting a decent deal.

 

Again thanks!!

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Thanks! He agreed to the price. Supposed to pick it up Monday. I saw it yesterday and it's a beautiful stone. Just wanted to make sure I was spending my money wisely!

 

From what I could tell the cheapest I can buy a similar stone retail is about 6500

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So wanted to share a story...

 

Went to have the ring sized and replated. Was going to have it appraised too.

 

Was promptly told I paid too much she that AGS ratings were not as valuable as GIA. Then told that the ratings went GIA, EGL, IGI then AGS.

 

I started laughing and chose not to have the appraisal there (yes she was not the gemologist).

 

She was the manager, and honestly thinks she's telling me the truth. Continued to explain that I don't have a warranty with my ring and how bad that was.....

 

Am I missing something here?

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I honestly think she's not honestly telling you the truth... but perhaps I'm too cynical.

 

What she is missing is that people have many more sources of information today than they used to have 10-15 years ago.


Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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Considering the overall quality and pedigree of this diamond, you have a very rare and fine piece. And a great deal.  It doesn't get much better than that. Congrats!

 

You are wise not to have the appraisal done at that business.  They obviously are not knowlegeable or have ulterior motives in the advice they are giving. Either way its a big red flag.

 

If you are still looking for a qualified appraiser, see if there is an AGS member store in your area. You can go to the AGS website and use their store locator feature.


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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At the point when the estimations for princess cuts are recorded on a lab report (GIA/AGS) they will dependably list the side to side estimations and not the corner to corner estimations which are ALWAYS more.

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As this post was dug up from the past, I though it would be ok to segue into the appraisal issue.  We (Diamond Ideals) highly recommend getting any important purchase independently appraised. The money back guarantee offered by most vendors, allows enough time to get their rings appraised after purchase.  What is not talked about enough is the need for an independent appraisal.  In this case I have to differ from Texas Leaguer's opinion.  Looking up an appraiser on the AGS site will more than likely send you to another store.  I don't believe any store sanctioned appraisal of a new item not purchased at that store is ever truly unbiased.  Finding an independent appraiser is not easy especially if you are trying to stay local.  This requires some research but wouldn't you want to make sure the person appraising your piece is professionally qualified to do so and has no interest in the outcome of the appraisal? Maybe Neil, being an independent appraiser, has a good resource link he could share with us?


Laurent George
Diamond Ideals
New York City

www.diamondideals.com
212-207-4845
laurent@diamondideals.com

 

 

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At the point when the estimations for princess cuts are recorded on a lab report (GIA/AGS) they will dependably list the side to side estimations and not the corner to corner estimations which are ALWAYS more.

Uh? Could you please explain how physical measurements have anything to do with obtaining proper appraisals? (incidentally, I would also be interested in understanding how proper corner-to-corner measurement can be larger than side-to-side, since it implies that the side is concave...)

 

Maybe Neil, being an independent appraiser, has a good resource link he could share with us?

Neil is on the AGS site as one of AGS's top-qualified appraisers (and he only does appraisals, eliminating any conflict-of-interest issues). I hope he doesn't mind if I quote from him on resources:

 

http://www.diamondreview.com/forum/topic/9164-how-do-i-certify-an-heirloom-wedding-set/#entry45535

 

EDIT: changed convex to concave which of course is the correct term looking from inside the diamond.

Edited by davidelevi

Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://www.diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com

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For the record, I completely concur with the advice of getting a completely independent, arm's length appraisal from a qualified, experienced and credentialed professional.  

 

I was suggesting looking for an AGS store simply because the store's gemologist would have credentials and would be familiar with both AGS and GIA graded diamonds.  

 

Although AGS member stores are supposed to be committed to the AGS mission of consumer education and protection, that is not an iron clad guarantee of impartiality.  Always better to go to a qualified, credentialled independent appraiser if one is available.


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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There are a few different issues here.

 

The first is qualifications.  It’s more difficult to find a qualified appraiser than you might think.  Most don’t have ANY training at all.  The problem is that a GIA GG is not an appraisal credential.  It’s a gemological credential.  That’s nothing against GG’s, I’m a GG,but beyond matching the lab docs and inspecting for damage, that’s mostly not the question you’re asking.  That said, if you’re looking for Gemological skills, look for the Graduate Gemologist diploma from GIA and the FGA credential from the Gemological Association of Great Britain.   Both have online lookups for their graduates.  By the way, there are similar organizations in Germany, Thailand and many other places.  I’m not disparaging them,I’m just not familiar with them and this forum is largely English language.  Who I am disparaging is the weekend seminars that end with an unknown diamond credential or a title like ‘gemknowlogist’ and the sales training programs at some of the giant chains. They're out there, and they're worse than useless.

GIA is http://www.gia.edu
GAGB is http://www.gem-a.com
 
Next we have appraisers. GIA doesn't even teach a class in appraising, much less offer a diploma in it.  A gemologist is not an appraiser or visa versa.  Appraising is the talent of writing descriptions, photographing things, grading and evaluating craftsmanship, metals, gems and other components,  identifying the appropriate marketplace and conditions along with other elements we call the 'value characteristics', and then writing a report about it.  Appraisals are about value (usually).  There are a variety of different ways to do it and value conclusions can and will vary depending on all of these things.  Any statement of value needs to contains elements of what it’s worth to whom, when and under what circumstances.  Without these a value conclusion is of no merit whatever. Obviously these are not all gemological properties.  They lead to giant discrepancies and are the source of enormous confusion for people trying to understand what appraisal reports do and don't mean.
 
Appraising for new purchase comparison and insurance type purposes isn’t rocket science but it does take a methodical approach to things and it goes a lot better if you know what you’re doing.  Practice helps too.  It's worth noticing that even these two have slightly different definitions of value.  'Insurance' appraisals normally are an estimate of the required funding needed to replace the item with another of like kind and quality in the case of a loss.  Retail.  New.  Locally.  New purchase comparison is an estimate of what a comparable item might be expected to cost in some specified marketplace if you bought it from someone else.  See the difference? 

There are several places you can look for people with at  least a minimum amount of appraisal training and who at least present themselves as professional appraisers.
 
National association of jewelry appraisers: http://www.najaappraisers.com
American Society of Appriaisers: http://www.appraisers.org
International Society of Appraisers. http://www.isa-appraisers.org

Appraisers International Society.  http://www.aisociety.com

American Gem Society.  http://www.ags.org

 

Again, there are others but these are the only ones I know of with online lookups. I’m not slamming anyone’s particular school but it’s a mistake to assume that just because they have some letters after their name and call themselves a jewelry appraiser that they therefore know something.  Look into it if you don’t recognize the credential and the default assumption is to ignore it. Just calling themselves a school doesn't make their training useful. The above groups all offer several different credentials each that have to do with experience, classes, tests and so on.  In every case the society issuing the credential has a web page explaining it.
 
Then there’s the ‘independence’ thing.  Most jewelry appraisers are associated with jewelry stores and gem dealers.  Often they own the place.  That’s not of itself a problem but it’s a giant opportunity for a conflict of interest because spiking the deal leaves you open to sell you something else, and if you’re selling it is an opportunity for them to buy from at a bargain.  A bid is not an appraisal.  Neither is an offer to sell competitive goods.  Even the ones who can argue independence often have an issue.  If you drop off your item at a jewelry store and they hire in an appraiser to look at it, that’s not independent, even if it meets the IRS definition of an independent contractor.  The jeweler is the client, not you.  That doesn’t make them wrong, but it’s worth being concerned about if independence is part of your issue.

I only know of two groups of these:

The ‘Independent Certified Gemologist Appraiser’ category at AGS. http://www.ags.org
Association of Independent Jewellery Valuers http://www.independent-jewellery-valuers.org
(note the British spelling.  That’s because they’re mostly Brits although they're becoming increasingly global)

Edited by denverappraiser
  • Like 2

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.

Professional Appraisals in Denver

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This is a great overview Neil.  It should be permanently pinned somewhere and accessible for consumers to understand the appraisal landscape (if it is not already).


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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A quick look in the tutorials section I do not see anything like this.  It should definitely be there.


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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It is indeed. Neil, with your permission I would be happy to add this to a tutorial page (most of which are in sore need of updates anyway!)


Hermann

Moderator

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Neil, You have great knowledge and i have already copied in my notes for future reference. I must say you are doing a great job.

 

Thanks! I'm actually buying this stone second hand and offered $5,000 for the ring. It's set in 18k and has about an additional carat of lesser quality diamonds in a split shank halo setting.

Just wanted to make sure I was getting a decent deal.

Again thanks!!

Nice deal


Gemologist (Graduate)

www.b2cjewels.com

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OK so I need some help here:

 

I went to have the diamond appraised and I am a little shocked at the value.

 

It came back @ $8500 and I honestly expected more.

 

 

Here's the the details of the ring:

 

1.01 Carat Princess Cut

 

AGS 0 Cut

 

E Color

 

VS2 Clairty

 

With 12 @ .24pt VS1-VS2 E-F diamonds (Halo section)

 

With two rows (on the band) 24 @ 48 pts VS1-VS2 E-F diamonds

 

Set it platinum and white gold 18K.

 

By eye the smaller diamonds are very good (possibly better) cut as they have just as much fire as the center stone.

 

Am I wrong thinking it's low? I can't even find an AGS 0 E VS2 online that I can compare. When I look on blue nile the closet stone is right at $7,000 without the setting.

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Disregard the previous posting. I spoke with the jeweler and he was 100% accurate.

 

He said he does not inflate appraisals and that would make the exact replacement value. Which makes sense and seeing crap from Costco saying $3500 rings are worth $12k are killing this area.

 

Very nice guy and very well informed. Apparently this is where I was ignorant and now am not :)

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There are a couple of possible things to consider here.  First of all, was the appraiser truly independent?  Does he work for himself, removed from any commercial jewelry store? Or does he work out of a store and may possibly have a bias?

 

What kind of appraisal did you ask for?  Was it a full retail value for insurance purposes or did you ask for something else, like "how much could I sell this for?"

 

The setting and side stones sound like they should fetch a retail price in the $2000 to $3500 range.  The stone itself, if you are still referring to the stone at the beginning of your thread, might appear smaller than a one carat due to the 74.5% depth and small table.  Did you provide the appraiser with the grading report?

Similar (but not AGS0) stones sell in the $4K to $5K range so his number is not really that far off.  It is just not over inflated as many in-house appraisals can be.

Edited by LaurentGeorge

Laurent George
Diamond Ideals
New York City

www.diamondideals.com
212-207-4845
laurent@diamondideals.com

 

 

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It's the same stone listed on here.

 

I just asked for an appraisal for replacement cost.

 

He's an AGS certified Appraiser and as I found out also sits on the board with AGS.

 

After speaking with him I think he completely did it 100% accurate, and I appreciated his honesty and taking the time to validate his work.

 

He said this is what made up the price....

 

6500 center stone

 

2000 setting

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Could you post a picture of the ring?  Based on your description of the ring, he estimates it on the low side, but he has seen it and we have not.


Laurent George
Diamond Ideals
New York City

www.diamondideals.com
212-207-4845
laurent@diamondideals.com

 

 

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Yes, that does sound low for a retail replacement valuation.  Did you ask the appraiser how he/she arrived at that figure?


Bryan Boyne, GG (GIA), CG (AGS)
Whiteflash Ideal Diamonds and Fine Jewelry

bboyne@whiteflash.com

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