9 replies to this topic

[moomax]

Hi everyone,

I've been shopping around for a diamond and recently came across a local jeweler who offered what appears to be a pretty good price for a stone I want however, I'm not sure if it's really GIA certified as he claims. While the GIA report he gave me listed as valid on the GIA website, I noticed the inclusions don't seem to be lining up from stone to the sheet. Then again, maybe I'm miss understanding the level of detail and markings on the GIA cert?

I attached a picture below to help give a better idea what I'm talking about. But my main issues are:

1.) Two areas listed as clouds on the GIA cert look more like a long thin balloon trapped under the diamonds surface. It sort of looks like what would happen if you blew air into jellow. (A hollow looking squiggly path in the middle of a solid substance) I thought clouds were supposed to look more like a bunch of small dots?

2.) Next to the two questionable "clouds", I see a scratch / line in the diamond that doesn't appear on the GIA cert.

3.) The GIA cert claims there are two needles in the upper left of the diamond yet I don't see any of them in the stone itself.

4.) There is another scratch / line in the upper left of the stone which doesn't appear on the GIA cert/

5.) The GIA report says there as some small crystals spread throughout however, I don't see any. (I thought they would appear as little black specs?)

The weight of the diamond on the scale matched what was on the cert. (1.11 carats) The stone measurements were very very close to what was listed as well. The width was spot on at 6.71mm but the depth read as 4.04 mm instead of 4.05 but I'd imagine thats just a tool precision error?




What do you guys think? How accurate is the GIA cert diagram to whats actually on the stone itself? Do you think this guy is trying to commit fraud here? or does he seem legit?

In case your curious the stone details are:
Carat: 1.11
Cut: EX
Color: G
Clarity: SI1
Polish: EX
Sym: EX
Flour: none
58 table / 60.2 depth

The price he's giving is $7600

Attached Thumbnails

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[davidelevi]

The price is reasonable, so it's not suspicious from that point of view. I think you would be MUCH better off getting a professional adviser who can see the diamond than relying on DIY and advice from a forum of people none of which can see the diamond. Appraisal fees are a few tens of dollars, and if you are at all concerned about reliability of the vendor, the pay off is worth many times that.

FWIW - Your description of something "bubbly" fits some types of clouds (in fact in some cases the cloud is made of microscopic cavities). The "scratches" could be the needles - they do look like scratches, but they are on the inside, and depending on the angle of observation it doesn't seem to be too far off the plot position (the crown will distort the observed position). If you have seen something on the surface of the diamond, it's a different question, since there isn't any blemish (external characteristic) identified on the plot. Crystals can be all colours; in fact the most common crystals are other diamonds which are transparent.

[denverappraiser]

The way to match a stone to a lab report, more or less in order, are:

1) Weight.
2) Dimensions.
3) Proportions (table, crown angle, etc)
4) Girdle treatment (faceted, polished, etc.).
5) Highly distinctive inclusions (like naturals)
6) Clarity
7) Color
8) Girdle inscription
9) Matching the plotting diagram

I second Davide's recommendation that professional assistance is called for here.

[denverappraiser]

By the way, the fact that you're having difficulty doing this is NOT evidence of shenegans on the part of the seller. Get it checked out by a pro, and you should always do this, but if you truly think your seller is defrauding you, seriously consider finding a different seller. There's lots of people out there who would love to do this deal and you should pick one that works well with you. Trust but verify.

Yes, +/- 0.01mm is within the margin of error for nearly all of the tools in this industry.

[moomax]

Ah. Yea there wasn't anything about the salesman that seemed untrustworthy. The weight and dimensions were definitely right and he put it in a color reading machine which was saying "H" (one off from G) but he did say the machine takes time to warm up and when I looked at the diamond on a white background I really couldn't see any color.

I guess the only way to get a professional opinion would be to buy the stone and have it checked out afterwards right? I mean I don't think he'll just let me take his stone out without paying anything. What if worst case I buy it and another jeweler says its not what the cert claims?


Also, would you happen to know if a single "needle" mark on a gia cert can represent multiple? Like I can't fully remember but I thought the stone I saw under the microscope had a few scratch like markings next to each other on the top right and not a single mark like on the cert. (kind of like someone taking a pen and going back and forth a few times)

Edited by moomax, 20 July 2012 - 08:30 AM.

[davidelevi]

Agree with him the terms for return - I agree that it is unlikely he would simply tell you to walk out of the store with $7500 worth of diamonds, but there are many options here:

1. He sends it to an appraiser of your choice - not his - and if everything checks out OK you pay him, otherwise the appraiser returns the stone.

2. You both go to the appraiser of your choice, the appraiser tells you what he/she thinks in private and you either pay the seller or thank him for his time.

3. You pay (preferably on a credit card), with the clear, in writing agreement that you have X days to return the stone for whatever reason obtaining a full refund. X is not less than 7. Organise appointments with your appraiser, car mechanic, feng shui adviser or whoever else. Return or retain depending on results.

4. Anything else - avoid.

Bear in mind that a (binocular) microscope gives a fundamentally different view from a loupe - and it may well be significantly more magnifying than the 10x that grading standards specify. In theory, GIA should mark every single inclusion that they find (under a 10x loupe) individually, but I suppose it may be possible that some are so close to each other that they end up marked as one (and the plots themselves are created at a pretty high magnification; often I can find some markings only by looking at the plot with a loupe!)

[denverappraiser]

Pay him and agree on some reasonable right of return. 7 days for any reason is pretty fair. During that time, take it to an appriaser of YOUR choice, YOU pay and confirm it's what you expected. If not, take it back and if so, go home happy. If you're having it set by some 3rd party, take this opportunity to show it to them as well and make sure it'll work in the mounting you have in mind. (Don't actually have it set until you're 100% committed to the deal. There's warranty topics that come up around the setting job and it usually voids the return policy)

Use an appraiser, not a competitive jeweler if you can possibly arrange it. There's a huge conflict of interest inherent in the question you're asking if the grader is trying to offer you an alternative deal.

[moomax]

Ah good advice! I'm getting the stone mounted into a setting at the same jeweler so that won't be an issue.

Do you have a recommended way I could find an appraiser in northern / central New Jersey instead of going to another jeweler? I just assumed all appraisers were also jewelers.

[denverappraiser]

A few places to look for appraisers:

najaappraisers.com
appraisers.org
ags.org

None of these require independence although the IA's I know are all members of one or more and if you poke around you can see what the nature of theri practice is.

[moomax]

Ah. great! I found a few near me listed on the websites so I'll have them check it out! Thank you all for your help!!!