16 replies to this topic

[NC3]

I need HELP. This online store has VERY low prices and I am thoroughly confused about buying from them or not. I have never bought jewelry online and am not sure what questions I should be asking and above all if there is a catch somewhere.

Would really appreciate advice as have been saving for ages to finally go out and buy that one ring and I want to be sure.

Thanks in advance.....

[denverappraiser]

I've never heard of them. Personally, I get rather weary of retailers (meaning people who sell things one at a time directly to the public) using the word 'wholesale' to describe themselves and to carry the impression that their prices are good. That's something these guys do in a BIG way but I suppose it's up to you to decide if it's a deal killer. I didn't find the 'terms and conditions' on their website and the FAQ doesn't exist. For me, this is the FIRST page to look at in evaluating a potential store.

What's a specific item thre you saw that you thought was particularly cheap? I just browsed around for less than a minute but I didn't see much that was different from what everybody else selling this sort of goods seems to charge.

Note: 'Retail value' is complete fiction just like 'wholesale price'. They can charge whatever they want but the fact that they label it 'wholesale' means nothing and their idea of what some other retailer might charge is irrelevant, even if it were somehow correct. Evaluate each item on each deal on it's own merits, not against some theoretical benchmark of 'retail'.

[NC3]

Thank you so much. It is so helpful to be able to talk to someone. I have been looking at many sites (but then maybe not enough), and their three stone rings in 3.75 carats, G and H, VS1 and VS2 are all under $15,000. And they say they are all brilliant cut. I have not been able to find these prices anywhere else. I have asked them about what sort of certificate they provide, will further ask if they can get a GIA certificate even if I have to pay extra. Still waiting for a reply. anyways since I am not going to be in the US till June I have time to research further as will only buy once there.

[denverappraiser]

Provide a specific link to a specific offer please.

By the way, I avoid answering questions about the quality and pricing of items I haven't actually seen because it's incompatable with my role as an appraiser but there are others here who come from different positions and who can give you a different perspective from mine.

Edited by denverappraiser, 29 April 2012 - 06:16 AM.

[davidelevi]

"Brilliant cut" only means that they are cut so that the facets at the bottom of the stone converge towards a point. This is one of the two main styles of cutting. It implies nothing on the quality of the cut.

This is a "brilliant cut" diamond, though it would not win any prize for cut quality (it may still be valuable, since it is antique, but well cut based on modern proportions it is not). It is also based on a relatively unusual 6-fold symmetry, instead of the common 8-fold one.



As Neil has said, the issue is not the price in and of itself. The issue is what you are getting for that price. The fact that someone calls the diamonds G (or H) and VS2 (or VS1) does not mean that they are in the sense that GIA or another diamond merchant would use.

Edited by davidelevi, 30 April 2012 - 12:42 AM.

[NC3]

Well the ring I liked is at: http://www.diamondst...-h-v-v-s-1.html

The other is again 3 stone 4 carat and BELOW $15000.http://www.diamondstudswholesale.com/4-0-ct-brilliant-cut-three-stone-diamond-engagement-ring-h-v-s-2.html

As you can see, to me the size is important and am willing to give up a bit on clarity and color but yet can't go below VS2. Confusion is also on the difference between G and H as to how big is it.

Thanks for your time and considerate opinions I really really appreciate it

Edited by NC3, 30 April 2012 - 02:00 AM.

[davidelevi]

Back to square 1. You don't even know what the size of each stone is - and 2 x 0.85 + 1 x 1.80 has a significantly different price than 2 x 0.70 + 1 x 2.10... shopping large stones (>0.20 ct.) on TCW is asking for trouble.

The description you have on the site is purely what is provided by the seller. Anyone can take a brown sugar cube and sell it as "D/VVS", that doesn't make it a D (colourless) or VVS (inclusions that are so small that a trained expert has significant difficulty at locating them with 10x magnification). However, the difference in price between a fairly graded D/VVS1 and an F/VS2 - which will look identical to the naked eye and possibly even to the loupe once set - is a factor of nearly 2. You cannot determine a fair price for a diamond unless you can grade it accurately. The vendor is not providing you (or anyone else) enough information to do this...

[denverappraiser]

http://www.diamondst...-h-v-v-s-1.html

The way this kind of stuff is priced by the jewelers is by their cost on materials plus the cost of labor to assemble, plus the transaction costs (shipping, insurance, taxes, etc.), plus a markup to cover their overhead and profit. It’s the same formula for EVERY merchant everywhere, including their supplier and inclulding that hypothetical retailer that they're comparing themselves to.

In the case of that sort of design, the labor to assemble is going to top out at a few hundred dollars and may be less depending on who is doing the work. That is to say, any way you slice it it’s a small portion of the deal. Gold for a thing like that is a few hundred dollars. It’s a world commodity and it’s the same for everyone. Total we’re talking under 10% of the deal. The other 90% is in the diamonds.

You can get a pretty good feel for what diamonds cost and how the various variables affect things by playing with the ‘diamond finder’ at the top of the page here. It’s free and it anonymous and it doesn’t make a bit of difference if you have any intention of actually doing business with any of these folks. It’s a wonderful lesson and I highly recommend it. Enter a few specs and look up the offers. Then change one spec, search again and notice what happens. Notice also the ranges that occur within the set of results. Sometimes it’s huge and sometimes they’re in a tight group. Especially in these high end clarity/color combinations the big range has to do with WHO is making the grading claim. As mentioned above, anyone who wants to can call a stone VVS1 and they can charge whatever they want for it. That doesn't mean that GIA or whoever you decide to rely on will call it that and if their grader is different from that competitors grader (likely unless they're using a lab). Without this datapoint you know next to nothing and even with it you MIGHT know next to nothing. Even if they ARE using a lab the difference is huge. Again, check out the database. Every stone listed here is lab graded. Notice how much difference there is in price between otherwise similar stones depending on which lab was chosen.

People tend to worry a LOT about dealer markup and target that one as the place where they can seek savings. That’s a mixed bag. Although I agree that dealer margins are important to keep in under control. Dealers do add value, they are impossible to completely eliminate in the quest to 'eliminate the middleman'. It’s easy to lose sight of what’s going on. There are bigger variables elsewhere and it’s easy to find that by concentrating on the dealer who claims the lowest margin, you’re really just going for the biggest liar.

The cheap guys are marking up things like this 10% or so. Below that is just not worth the trouble for even the most streamlined operation. Typical on this sort of thing is about 30%. Tiffany is about 80% at this price point. There is a difference and you can usually get in the right range simply by picking the right style of store. You KNOW if you’re shopping at Tifs or Cartier or the mall just like you know if you’re looking at Walmart or Overstock.com. They offer different levels of value-add and it’s up to you to decide if they’re worth it but it’s seriously deceptive for a dealer to point at the prices and call ‘retail’ $47,000 somehow somewhere and they’ll sell for less. Costco costs less than Harry Winston for similarly described goods. So what? That doesn’t make Costco good, it doesn’t make Harry’s bad, and it doesn’t say anything at all about what either one of them is selling. The difference is in the details. I bring this up (again) because your guys conveniently omit nearly all of the details. That’s the #1 red flag here. They’re selling you a supposedly $47,000 item and they aren’t telling you doodly squat about it other than that they’ll sell it for less than that. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad deal but it would certainly scare me away as a shopper. If they had a pitch with substances, why aren't they making it?

ETA: I just noticed their terms and conditions. '30 day returns' means 7 days or you get hit with a 20% restocking fee. That's tight and depending on 7 days from when and to when it's bordering on a deal killer right there. A $3000 restocking if FedEx is late is pretty severe. If they ship on Friday and it means you have to have it back in their hands by next Friday then you'd better ship by Wednesday. That means you get it on Monday and the return goes back on Wednesday. That's not 30 days, that's 2. If you're going to be getting it appraised, and you should, you need to get your appointment set with the appraiser before you even place the order with the seller.

Edited by denverappraiser, 30 April 2012 - 07:01 AM.

[davidelevi]

Admittedly it's 7 days from receipt, but it still gives me pause...

[NC3]

Thank you, very informative and educational for me. They did come back to me saying that since the ring I am interested in is above $7,000 they will give me 30 day return without overstocking fee. But after talking to you I am seriously rethinking, I think will explore more, loved the diamond finder, now will work on that.

Since I am not based in the US, a lot of people I know prefer buying their diamonds from Hong Kong. Why is that, is that a cheaper market than the US? I tried looking into that but there are not many bargain online stores.

Anyways this forum has been the best place I have found, at least I can bounce off my thoughts. Will keep you posted on the next episode of me finding that ultimate stone!!!

[davidelevi]

The retail market for diamonds is increasingly a global one. Unless you are based in South-East Asia, I cannot think of why you would want to deal with a HK-based dealer in preference to a US-based one. It makes little difference to shipping times (or costs), and as you have found out the availability of online dealers is lower...

BTW - remember that a great deal on the wrong thing is not a bargain, and that by and large there are no free lunches.

[denverappraiser]

I have clients from south Asia, including HK, who find they are best served to buy diamonds in the US and rather few who benefit by the reverse. The issue is the efficiency of the market and the credibility of the dealers. There is zero tax at either spot although US customers get to deal with sales taxes and Chinese customers have this VAT like thing when they bring things into the country. There's a lot to be said for buying from a jeweler who is close to home and for HK residents it makes some sense to be shopping there but I see very little benefit for a US resident to be buying there.

[NC3]

FYI the retailer came back on my inquiry about the certificate.
Quote: "We do not carry any GIA stones here. Since each diamond is different, I’m not able to give you exactly what gem lab certifies the piece until it’s made. Each purchase here is made to order."
Thank you, I have least a valuable lesson through this exercise...."everything that shines......"

[davidelevi]

"Each purchase here is made to order" but we cannot send the stone to the lab you as the customer require. How strange...

Good luck in continuing your search - and please do come back with more questions!

[Ignacio11]

Hey buddy, I am not sure whether you've already bought the diamond or not but I have just purchased it from Ice Envy and after that I am out for reviews.. Anyone for who can get me that whether it is a good site to buy a diamond or not?

[davidelevi]

Normally people ask that question before buying, not afterwards. Unless they are spammers...

[Jim]

Bad bad bad company. People if you bought from them take your product to a jewler to get it checked. They are a scam and when you check it they ask for it back and refund your money, it's because they lie, they can't sell you the product for those prices.. I bought 1.5 carat total weight princess cut stud earrings, and they turned out only being 1 carat total weight. Don't trust them.. Email me for more info if you need it.. Scammers scammers!!!!