15 replies to this topic

[primetime]

I was wondering what a set of 1ct total weight 14K white gold earrings that are princess cut run me?


Color: G
Clarity: Vs1
Cut: Very Good

Can these be had for $1000?

I'm located in the midwest, USA.

Basically looking for something like this that is G color or better:

http://www.ebay.com/...3#ht_720wt_1387

What's the most you would pay for the above?

I'm very inexperienced when it comes to diamonds. Are these round cut for example worth the price:

http://www.amazon.co...30999570&sr=1-2

I went to a local Kay Jewlers but didn't like how pushy they were.

[denverappraiser]

Umm. The ebay link is to some 1/2 carat total weight er's. That means 1/4ct (or less) each. They are graded by the seller and it looks like he/she is relying on an unattributed grading by some store that sold to them. That's completely different from what you asked about and it's completely different from the stone in the other link.

What are you looking for?

In answer to your question, no I don't think you are going to find a pair of correctly graded matched half carat princess cuts of those specs for $1000 or less without some serious luck.

[primetime]

I'm looking for:

1ct total weight
Color: G
Clarity: Vs1
Cut: Very Good

From what I've read, I might as well go to the diamond district in new york and pick out two loose 1/2 ct stones that are GIA certified and have a rapaport with me so that I can get them for 18% under list. I also read that I should familiarize myself at how to look at a diamond under maginfication and clearly understand what I'm looking for. It appears as if jewlers can list a diamond as a G, but are covered by law if it is infact a F. Or is it clarity that they can get away with misrepresenting? With a GIA report, I understand that should not be a concern?

I heard that it doesn't make any sense to pay for higher levels of clarity than SI-1, since you can't see the difference without magnification, but won't that effect the way the diamond shines or is that strictly dependant on cut and fluorescence?

[davidelevi]

1. Rapaport data is not relevant for individual transactions. Diamonds are priced stone-by-stone )or parcel-by-parcel) even for trade transactions. You can do better as a source of negotiation data by using a listing engine like the Diamond Finder on this forum and get prices for truly comparable stones. Moreover, diamonds trading at a discount compared to some average (which is what the Rap provides) do so for some reason: "poor" cut, visible inclusions (particularly if you are going for SI or lower clarity), "dead" stones...

2. There are no legally binding standards for colour, clarity or cut. If you purchase stones graded by GIA (or AGS), you can be assured that the diamond is of a consistently graded colour, clarity and (where graded) cut quality. Anything else, and you are basically relying on the vendor's word.

3. Clarity graded I1 or better will not affect the diamond's optical qualities. Same goes for fluorescence. SI1 should be fine for earring stones, but people's tolerance for what is "visible" inclusion varies quite a bit. VS1 is overkill.

[denverappraiser]

Not that I have anything especially against the New York diamond district but who, other than dealers who rent space there, is telling you that there is a savings to be had by shopping there? There are some good vendors there, just like anywhere else, but there's a lot of sharks too. It's not the address that makes one jeweler better than another, it's the character of the people behind the counter/keybaord. FWIW, those street level booths are the highest rent spaces on the planet and New York workers and businessmen have the highest taxes in the country. That works well for people looking for convenience and the DD shopping experience, but it doesn't lend itself to low prices.

Jewelers misrepresent color and clarity REGULARLY. The usual path is by using off-brand labs but it's not the only path. Beyond the standard consumer protectin laws it's completely unregulated. The way to get stung on GIA graded goods is by either not knowing what the grades mean in the first place or with off-report sorts of things like cutting on non-rounds, condition or durability concerns, the 'good' cut grade and the like.

[primetime]

Thanks for the replies. It's much better to get an unbiased opinion than from some kid working at Kay Jewelers. I was basing the decision on going to the NY diamond district from this read:

www.ruleofthumb.com/diamond.htm

6) Ask prospective jewelers to see the current Rapaport Diamond Report, which comes out weekly. This is a wholesale price list widely used by the industry. Compare the prices you are being offered against the Rapaport report prices.

7) Consider buying your diamond wholesale in New York City's Diamond District[/url] (in Manhattan on 47th St. between 5th and 6th Ave.). This is the wholesale market for diamonds in the United States, and the primary source for jewelers. Wholesalers and jewelers here will have no problem showing you the current Rapaport report, and will typically sell you diamonds at up to an 18% discount from Rapaport! You may want to call some of the jewelers listed in the Jeweler's Directory and compare their prices to those you have gotten in your area.

#1. Is this true:

The Federal Trade Commission requires that a diamond be within one clarity and one color grade of what it is originally sold as. Because of this, jewelers tend to “bump” the grade. For example, if a jeweler buys a stone as a VS1-G, he’ll bump it up and sell it as a VVS2-F. If you buy it as a VVS2-F and have it appraised as a VS1-G, the dealer is legally covered, because he sold it within one grade of what it really is.

???

#2. How can you tie the GIA grading report to the diamond in question? By word of mouth of the seller (LOL), or is there something indicated on the report that shows where the inclusions are, so that upon inspecting the diamond yourself you can ensure that the report is correct?

#3. Just short of being trained by a certified grader of GIA on how to look at a diamond, how do you not get ripped off and find what you want at the right price, lol?!?

#4 Is "cut grade" a GIA determined property, or is it determined by the retailer? What exactly constitutes a "very good" from a "good" from an "excellent"?

#5. ON a GIA report, what does "cloud, crystal" mean compared to "crystal, feather" under clarity characteristics?

#6 Why on a GIA report is depth and table not listed?

#7. For these specs:

Shape: Princess
Carat Weight: 1.00
Color: G
Clarity: Si1
Cut Grade: Very Good

The diamondfinder seems to price them at $3500-$6000

If a diamond met the above specs and was priced at say $2500, how might the following specs below look to account for the lower price: (assume that no treating was done and that it's a natural diamond)

Table %:
Depth %:
Girdle:
Culet:
Polish:
Symmetry:
Fluorescence:

???

#8. If 1ct is $3500-$6000 on the diamond finder, why is 0.5ct at the same specs priced $900-$1100?
One would think that at half the weight you'd be looking at half the price, not 3.5x - 6x the price.

#9 Here we have a GIA certified 1/2ct diamond with F SI1 (ebay item

130544680391)

which the seller is selling for $780

I don't see any depth, table, Flor, Sym, Polish or Girdle info provided. Why might a seller leave this valuable information off the listing? (Not that I would buy off ebay sight unseen, just wondering.)

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to learn as much as I can.

Edited by primetime, 06 March 2012 - 05:51 PM.

[denverappraiser]

The savings you gain from going to NYC is the cost of a FedEx from NYC less the cost of your trip. I guess that depends on how cheaply you travel but a typical FedEx bill is about $40.

That's terrible advice. There are a few things in it that are true, just enough to be dangerous, but the overall result is dreadful. It's easy to test for yourself. In the diamond finder above, search for a stone with some popular specs, say 1.00-1.05 H SI2 round. I get 1181 results to that search. Prices range from a high of 7417 and a low of 2411 (plus shipping). That's a factor of 3 range on on stones that have exactly the same 'value' on Rapaport! All are offered for immediate sale and all are offered by legitimate dealers. How does Rap help you decide which ones are a 'deal'? FWIW, Rap on that is just over $6000.

In your case, 1.00-1.05 G SI1 Princess has 172 offers ranging from 2685 to 5940. Rap is 5400.

No, you will not find a correctly graded stone of those specs at a dealer anywhere. It's possible you can find one at a pawnshop, garage sale, or something like that if you do the dance but it does come with some other headaches.


Gotta love the Internet. Here's the FTC guidlines for the jewelry industry, straight from the source. Nothing even close to what you are quoting is present.
http://www.ftc.gov/b...s/jewel-gd.shtm

Some GIA graded stones have a girdle inscription that can be matched to the report and some will have a plotting diagram that indicates the nature and location of the inclusions. It depends on what sort of report the dealer ordered. It's not rocket science but it does take a little bit of practice. The FIRST step is to vet the jeweler and only buy from a source you consider to be reliable. It's a VERY competitive business out there.

[primetime]

Thanks for the quick reply. I modified my post above and numbered the questions while you were posting. If you could answer anything that you haven't already, I'd be most grateful!

Also is it true that this diamond for $649

http://www.solomonbr...rts/EK-3647.jpg

can look just as good as this one for $920

http://www.jamesalle...31&item=1388874

?

Edited by primetime, 06 March 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[denverappraiser]

Yes, it's possible, although it has a lot to do with your taste. I-1 covers a lot of territory and some are definitely better than others. The JA one faces up quite a bit bigger (look at the length/width measurements as well as the girdle) and it's one color grade higher but the SB one looks to be priced a bit under market.

Diamond prices go up steeply with size. A 1 carat is way more than twice the price of a half carat. A 2 carat is way more than twice the price of a one carat, etc. That's just the way it works. It's a very steep curve and it leads to some fantasticallly high prices if you follow it out.

Ebay sellers aren't always the smartest. Then again, some of them are super smart and are leaving off information because they know it'll damage their sale.

[davidelevi]

I think Neil picked up most of your questions, but since I got to this only this morning (isn't it beautiful to have different time zones?), I'll give you a second take on your renumbered list. Feel free to skip!

Thanks for the replies. It's much better to get an unbiased opinion than from some kid working at Kay Jewelers. I was basing the decision on going to the NY diamond district from this read:

www.ruleofthumb.com/diamond.htm
{snip}

As Neil said - you could hardly get worse advice. Ignore and move on.

#1. Is this true:

{snip}

???

No it isn't true, as per FTC guidelines. In any case, even if the FTC guidelines were quite as precise as this, since there are no legally accepted definitions of Clarity and Colour, all the vendor needs to do is to find someone willing to say that the diamond is a VVS2-F as per his description. It's your paper against his. Which one is right? Courts very rarely will enter into this type of discussion; they will find based on the prima facie evidence (and you can hardly expect a judge to be an expert in diamond grading).

#2. How can you tie the GIA grading report to the diamond in question? By word of mouth of the seller (LOL), or is there something indicated on the report that shows where the inclusions are, so that upon inspecting the diamond yourself you can ensure that the report is correct?

In some reports plots are provided to help you locate the inclusions, and sometimes a laser inscription on the girdle helps. In general, it's not too difficult for someone with a minimal amount of tools (loupe, tweezers and gem gauge) and willing to put some effort into it. Experience helps - a lot. If you are concerned with switcheroos and other shenanigans of this type, an appraiser is well worth his/her money in peace of mind alone.

#3. Just short of being trained by a certified grader of GIA on how to look at a diamond, how do you not get ripped off and find what you want at the right price, lol?!?

Begin by choosing the dealer rather than the diamond. Many diamonds are available to any retailer - and in any case they are not a scarce commodity, at least in any shape and size below 5 carats.

#4 Is "cut grade" a GIA determined property, or is it determined by the retailer? What exactly constitutes a "very good" from a "good" from an "excellent"?

For rounds graded after 2005, there is a GIA cut grade. For all other shapes, it is a retailer-assigned grade (and it is usually not worth the paper it's printed on), unless the stone is graded by AGSL, who will issue cut grades on some fancy shapes. Note that retailers will often "re-grade" rounds; ignore their grade and look to the report - at least it is clear what standards are being used. The GIA cut grading system is described in a fair amount of detail here: http://www.gia.edu/diamondcut

#5. ON a GIA report, what does "cloud, crystal" mean compared to "crystal, feather" under clarity characteristics?

That one stone has a cloud (a group of very small "pinpoint" inclusions whose nature cannot be determined at 10x) and an included crystal of some mineral (which could be another diamond or something else), while the other stone has a crystal and a fracture (not a particularly concerning feature - it sounds bad, but that's why they call it a feather). Neither description tells you anything about the size, colour, location and therefore visibility of these inclusions. Generally, the inclusions are listed in order of size/visibility.

#6 Why on a GIA report is depth and table not listed?

They should be. On the diagram with the stone profile. Sometimes vendors will publish "extracts" from the reports, but on the original you should be able to find depth and table %

#7. For these specs:

Shape: Princess
Carat Weight: 1.00
Color: G
Clarity: Si1
Cut Grade: Very Good

The diamondfinder seems to price them at $3500-$6000

If a diamond met the above specs and was priced at say $2500, how might the following specs below look to account for the lower price: (assume that no treating was done and that it's a natural diamond)

Table %:
Depth %:
Girdle:
Culet:
Polish:
Symmetry:
Fluorescence:

???

In so many ways that I'd need to write a book to answer this exhaustively. In general, the two biggest factors in an SI-clarity diamond are cut quality (which is NOT JUST table and depth - in fact they are minor and derived from other cutting choices) and visibility of inclusions.

#8. If 1ct is $3500-$6000 on the diamond finder, why is 0.5ct at the same specs priced $900-$1100?
One would think that at half the weight you'd be looking at half the price, not 3.5x - 6x the price.

No, because diamonds become exponentially rarer (and thus exponentially more expensive) with size. Also, there are some important price thresholds at 0.30, 0.50, 0.70, 0.90, 1.00 and then every 0.50 where the price behaves non-linearly (a 0.95 is worth a lot less than a 1.00).

#9 Here we have a GIA certified 1/2ct diamond with F SI1 (ebay item

130544680391)

which the seller is selling for $780

I don't see any depth, table, Flor, Sym, Polish or Girdle info provided. Why might a seller leave this valuable information off the listing? (Not that I would buy off ebay sight unseen, just wondering.)

Either the seller is not very smart, or the seller is trying to be very smart. Ask questions and decide...

Edited by davidelevi, 07 March 2012 - 12:16 AM.

[primetime]

Thanks again! This information is so helpful! So in short on a princess cut diamond that is GIA certified, one still has to rely on the vendor to correctly describe the cut quality wheras on a GIA certified round diamond, the cut quality is listed but still additional info should be obtained from the vendor. Do I have this correct?

In looking at princess cut diamonds online, without the ability to see and compare them directly, what information (pictures, scans etc...) would need to be obtained from the vendor and submitted on this forum to determine if a stone is worth the asking price? What are these images called? Would such data be able to tell the reader how visable the inclusions are, or is the only way to buy a diamond is in person by comparing it to multiple stones and making sure that it is GIA certified?

Also why doesn't the GIA comment on crown and pavilion angles and their interactions for all types of diamond shapes? Buying a diamond of any type regardless of shape and knowing if you are getting a good price should be as simple as looking at a certified report and comparing the contents of that report to market value. Makes it much eaiser on the customer and for the vendor to price correctly if everything is standardized. Once that is done, the only question of choosing a vendor is the level of customer service.

I don't want to have to rely on the jewler to tell me if a cut is very good or excellent. That is the very purpose of the certification. We've already established that GIA is the way to go, so why not have GIA optimize their reports so that it's easier on the customer and vendor? I don't know of any customer that wouldn't pay $150 per ct instead of $100 per ct that GIA charges for their repots to get a better report and have more confidence in what they are buying. The GIA listing cut quality and location of the inclusions and wether or not they effect the visual appearance on princess cut diamonds would be a start.

Edited by primetime, 07 March 2012 - 09:30 AM.

[davidelevi]

Thanks again! This information is so helpful! So in short on a princess cut diamond that is GIA certified, one still has to rely on the vendor to correctly describe the cut quality wheras on a GIA certified round diamond, the cut quality is listed but still additional info should be obtained from the vendor. Do I have this correct?

By and large yes - it also depends on how fussy you want to get with the whole process; many people are happy with GIA's grade and the basic info on the report.

In looking at princess cut diamonds online, without the ability to see and compare them directly, what information (pictures, scans etc...) would need to be obtained from the vendor and submitted on this forum to determine if a stone is worth the asking price? What are these images called? Would such data be able to tell the reader how visable the inclusions are, or is the only way to buy a diamond is in person by comparing it to multiple stones and making sure that it is GIA certified?

Visibility of inclusions is tough to assess without having the stone in hand. The best proxy is normal, high quality large size photos, but you still need to have some guidance as to how to read them: not everybody takes pictures the same way. For cut, reflector images like ASET or IdealScope can be useful - but again they require some experience/expertise in interpreting. Again, normal photos and/or video can be very helpful in assessing cut, but you need some familiarity with the style of the photographer.

Also why doesn't the GIA comment on crown and pavilion angles and their interactions for all types of diamond shapes? Buying a diamond of any type regardless of shape and knowing if you are getting a good price should be as simple as looking at a certified report and comparing the contents of that report to market value. Makes it much eaiser on the customer and for the vendor to price correctly if everything is standardized. Once that is done, the only question of choosing a vendor is the level of customer service.

Partly it is because the matter is not quite so simple. There is some research from the AGS on developing a cut grading system for the most common shapes other than round, but 1) GIA will never quite accept it as valid just because it is from a competitor, 2) the volumes of stones submitted for grading may not pay back the investment on extra research and development and 3) the less symmetrical and regular the shape is, the more difficult it is to generate a set of generally valid criteria. For example,

This is a cushion cut:

And this is a cushion cut too:

And so is this:


forget colour and clarity - just look at the variety of shapes and cutting styles, with the attendant changes in light paths, and imagine trying to bring that down to a manageable set of parameters that can be measured repeatably and reliably stone after stone, and give meaningful results in terms of how "beautiful" each stone is to an average observer. Those 3, BTW, are all beautiful to me, although very different in looks.

I don't want to have to rely on the jewler to tell me if a cut is very good or excellent. That is the very purpose of the certification. We've already established that GIA is the way to go, so why not have GIA optimize their reports so that it's easier on the customer and vendor? I don't know of any customer that wouldn't pay $150 per ct instead of $100 per ct that GIA charges for their repots to get a better report and have more confidence in what they are buying. The GIA listing cut quality and location of the inclusions and wether or not they effect the visual appearance on princess cut diamonds would be a start.

Location of the inclusions is plotted already - though not with the indication of visibility - but again part of the difficulty with that is "visible to whom, and under what conditions?" What is visible to a sharp-eyed observer on a loose stone sitting on an opaque, light colour surface through the side may be completely invisible to a long-sighted viewer from the top in a set stone sitting on a finger...

I agree that there is a demand for a reliable cut grade, and that many consumers would be prepared to pay GIA significantly more than they do now for making this information available (if it can be systematised at all, which I'm not sure of). However, consumers have a relatively small impact on GIA's finances: the majority of their revenue (necessary to sustain research, education and services) comes from the trade, and it is not easy to get people behind something that potentially restricts their freedom of action and decreases their potential profits... on the other side, I think, this creates opportunities for those dealers that are prepared to be honest and care for their customers that extra little bit.

Finally, one philosophical consideration: many "standards" somehow make the world a little poorer. The presence of chain stores makes each high street look like every other - with some benefits but also some disadvantages. Closer to the topic of diamonds, the introduction of the GIA cut grade in 2006 has already resulted in some cutting styles disappearing from the market, since they would be graded "below par" although to my taste they were among the most beautiful modern cut diamonds...

Edited by davidelevi, 07 March 2012 - 02:07 PM.

[primetime]

Thanks for clearing this all up! Makes perfect sense. I have a much better understanding than I did before!

[denverappraiser]

Thank God GIA doesn't assign prices. What would they assign? High prices, like MSRP on manufactured goods so the dealers can 'discount' to whatever market they are involved in? Low prices so that people will know what it would cost them at a cheapie place and could then figure out the 'premium' for the full service dealer that they want to patronize? Some sort of average? Free markets rock. Let the jewelers charge whatever they want, let them promote whatever features they think are worth promoting and let customers shop based on whatever features THEY think are important. Winner gets the sale. Country of origin? No problem. Astrological aura? Sure. Ethnicity of the cutter? Why not? Buyers can value whatever they think is important. Should GIA be listing this sort of thing on the report? I think not.

I'm reminded of a stone purchased by a famous Hollywood celebrity who shall remain nameless so that I don't get sued. It cost a huge pile of money and it was reported as having been mined in a spirit cave in Africa on a particularly auspicious day. I've no idea how much of a premium that attribute cost but the sale was in the 6 figures. Was it worth it? I suppose. The one guy in the world who would both buy such a thing and could afford it seems to have managed to find a seller willing/able to provide it. Could it be replaced? Heck no. I'm not even sure I know what a 'spirit cave' is, much less how to find one that doubles as a diamond mine.

Edited by denverappraiser, 07 March 2012 - 04:25 PM.

[primetime]

I happened to walk into a Tiffany's this weekend and asked if their diamonds are GIA certified. The guy said they don't use GIA, because if GIA were to upgrade their tools in the future, what was once considered a higher quality stone could be lower quality upon a re-send, whereas their certification is guaranteed to not fluctuate.

Any truth to this or is this a BS excuse to try and shy away from a universal standard like GIA.

I also went to the Diamond Cellar which has GIA, and they quoted me the following:

0.53 ct
GIA# 1136182064
$1260

0.52 ct
GIA# 6117051838
$1339.00

Deal or over priced?

[davidelevi]

What the sales guy at Tiffany has told you may even be the literal truth, but it is complete nonsense.

First of all, the diamond is what it is - it has a colour, inclusions, size, shape, weight, etc. etc. These characteristics don't change depending on who grades the diamond. This is why you find very different prices being charged for a (say) D/VS1 graded by EGL and a D/VS1 graded by GIA. The grade letters may be the same; the objective colour and clarity aren't, and this is reflected in the price as a function of the relative rarity of the stone.

Fashion and taste also have a huge impact on a diamond's resaleability/price - marquises were hot in the 1980s, now you can't give them away - but they are not under Tiffany's (and even less under GIA's) control.

Secondly, GIA standards have been relatively stable, and are to a large extent public and documented. Tiffany's aren't, and what guarantees you that they won't change, possibly in a non-transparent way to you, the consumer? In any case, while a GIA report is recognised by anyone who trades in diamonds, a grade awarded by Tiffany's internal evaluation may be subject to more controversy.

Thirdly, the reason to use a third party lab to grade a diamond is to offer greater consumer protection by affording an independent opinion on the diamond. How is that purpose accomplished by the dealer grading its own goods?

FWIW, Tiffany's internal grading used to be pretty consistent and aligned with GIA; I have heard rumours that they have grown looser in recent times, particularly since they have stopped using GIA for any but the most important stones (think 6 digits prices and above), but I cannot confirm or deny, since I don't see many Tiffany stones... Perhaps Neil has a more informed view.

I think the reason they don't use GIA is much more pedestrian, and it has to do with cost and time (and possibly the frustration that using GIA sometimes causes).

On the two stones you have found at Diamond Cellar (G/SI1 princess cut - to save others the time in retrieving GIA's info): the prices seem reasonable, but they really depend on two things that you cannot know through a GIA report: cut quality and visibility of the inclusions.