37 replies to this topic

[davidelevi]

Valuation/appraisal: it depends on what you want it for. Insurance companies in the UK (and I assume in Ireland) are normally happy with a detailed invoice/valuation from the seller - of course this does nothing to reassure you that what you have is as described and worth what you paid.

Best of luck with the purchase - and most importantly with the proposal! If you can come back to post a photo (or many) of the ring, we would all love to see it.

[denverappraiser]

The reasons people want to get an appraisal on a new purchase usually fall into few basic categories.

1) The dealer didn’t supply appropriate documentation to meet your insurance carrier’s requirements.

2) The documentation they supplied meets the minimum insurance company standards but it doesn’t meet YOUR standards. In most cases, the insurance contract is agreeing to replace a lost item with another of like kind and quality. The description in the appraisal you submit is the definition of ‘like kind and quality’ that will be used and it should include at least the grading on the stones, identification of the manufacturer if known, all relevant weights, dimensions, counts, karatages, etc., photographs and photomicrographs as needed, and a value conclusion that is appropriate to exact replacement. Too little and you’ll be underinsured and too high and you’ll be paying too much for your coverage (this is a common problem by the way)

3) You want a second opinion about something the dealer said or didn’t say in the sales presentation.

4) You are using it as part of the shopping process and you want tests and expert evaluations done that are beyond the scope of what the seller is able or willing to do.

5) The documentation they provided incluldes information that you know or suspect to be false and you're looking for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth before you proceed with a decision to keep or return the piece.

What and how much you need will depend on where you lie on the above issues as well as what your jeweler provides you, what your insurer requires and your own comfort level in relying 100% on the seller for information.

Edited by denverappraiser, 06 January 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[davidelevi]

Well... let's put it this way:

1. There is a very significant difference between GIA and IGI grading.
2. There is a significant price difference between F vs G, and VS1 vs VS2.

I am puzzled how they can be so specific as to say that the main diamond is "1.03 carats", yet not know whether it comes with an IGI or GIA report, VS1 or VS2, F or G.

You have no information on cut, other than the assurance of KD that the stones's proportion are optimal to get whatever effect they want.

Whatever the centre stone is, I think the price they quoted is for the ring only. Middle-range EGL/IGI G/VS2 stones trade online for about $4500-5500, so this would be suspiciously cheap even for the main stone. If that is indeed their quote for the centre stone, be assured that you would be getting something that no-one in the trade would honestly call G/VS2, and/or something that is cut appallingly. A "decent" GIA-graded G/VS2 1.00 carat goes for $8000-9500, and an F/VS1 for $10000-13000.

"Getting a ring with a design" does not prevent you from sourcing the stone from a competitive supplier. We - a small company - have about 40 "stock" designs that are not plain solitaires, and we can custom make pretty much anything you can think of or come up with a one-off design given a centre stone. Having said this, getting the culet-to-culet setting right is not going to be easy, and if you (or your girlfriend) are keen on that, the KD price is probably as good as you are going to get: there are definitely economies of scale in doing one difficult thing well.

ETA: don't assume that prices in Antwerp are particularly good (or indeed that you would have a better choice than by sitting in your room). Diamonds travel pretty well, and you can find suppliers prepared to ship to Dublin for very competitive prices. What you (or anyone else) cannot "do" is to compare full-service retail prices from a high street jeweller in Dublin with online prices...

Edited by davidelevi, 10 January 2012 - 01:26 PM.

[denverappraiser]

Personally I would find the approximately VS-something, F-Gish, GIA/IGI thing to be disconcerting but I guess that’s your call. Assume the worst unless they’re prepared to defend a claim that it’s better than that. This is part of what your dealer is for by the way. They're supposed to be helping choose the right thing here, not just moving a package from the inbox to the outbox.

The assumption of cheaper prices in Antwerp, New York, Israel, India, downtown Dublin, or wherever is common but flat out false. FedEx offers a pretty good service and EVERYONE in the trade knows it. The difference between holding inventory in the Ginza in Japan and a back alley in Antwerp is $35 and 3 days wait. The rest of the difference has to do with the dealer(s) and local taxes. There are fine places to shop in all of these locations but it’s not their address that made them such. It’s the character of the people behind the counter/keyboard.

Edited by denverappraiser, 10 January 2012 - 02:23 PM.

[mani1892]

Just to clarify, from the info I have 1.03 is the entire diamond weight of the ring - 3 centre stones 0.9 (middle 0.5; outside 0.2 each); clusters make up remainder. I am in the process of following up with the retailer as to the exact colour & clarity spec. As i have been informed that KD use both GIA and IGI grading labs exclusively, should I decide to purchase I will request that the stones used in my ring come with the GIA grading cert if possible. Can you advise how IGI labs rank against other labs in terms of reliability/accuracy of grading.

[denverappraiser]

I find them to be inconsistent from the ones I've seen. They're a very large operation and have quite a few labs distributed around the world with different management and staff. They seem to have difficulty keeping things consistent across their brand. They have many different products/services available with quite different levels of service. Some reports include a lot more information than others.

Edited by denverappraiser, 10 January 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[davidelevi]

Most of the observations above still apply - with one added caveat: now size is also a question mark. Unfortunately, the way diamonds are priced, a 0.51 will cost significantly more than a 0.49. Be wary of people selling diamond (or other gemstones) based on "total weight". The way in which the total weight is made up is much more indicative than the total.

It is now clear (or clearer) why there is a lot of reluctance to disclose information from the dealer: they don't have a few options in hand (or in mind). They are quoting you specs and prices based on what they think it may cost based on the lowest spec in the range, and the rest of the range is pure marketing.

Why do I say this? Because the variability in price just for the centre stone is quite large based on the specification range they gave you:

0.45-0.49 G/VS2 IGI/EGL: $900-1000
0.50-0.55 F/VS1 GIA: $2500-2800 (though if the cut is not at the top end, it may be $1000 less)

clearly, at the first price point for the centre there is enough money to build the rest of the ring. At the second, there is no way.

Frankly, I would be getting rather tired of this prevarication on the dealer's side. At this stage, they should be very precise about what they have for sale and what they don't.

[mani1892]

Thanks again for sharing your opinions and information guys. I have done some further digging with one of the jewellers stocking the KD ring I am interested in, who informs me that the grading labs used are Anchor Cert & Safeguard - do you happen to know anything about these labs (reliable, etc)? It is only the centre stone which is graded (which I am informed is common practice).

[davidelevi]

Having only the centre stone lab-graded is common practice.

Anchor Cert & Safeguard is completely unknown to me - which means relatively little - however, it is up to the seller to convince you of the validity of their grading, and the default position is "no validity".

Incidentally, I'd be interested in knowing why KD says one thing, and the dealer says another. Who is actually making these rings? (considering that I would expect the grading to be done with the stones loose).

Edited by davidelevi, 12 January 2012 - 11:11 AM.

[mani1892]

Think they are affiliated to the American Assay & Gemological Office if that helps.

[denverappraiser]

I"ve never actually seen an Anchor graded stone in a way that I could criticically examine it but they are decently well regarded in the UK. I second the question of why the jeweler is telling you something different from what the manufacturer is telling you. Amy is in a different marketplace and I can certainly imagine that what she sells in HK is from a different manufacturing source from what your Irish dealer sells but the GIA/IGI claim came through the guys in Dublin as well didn't it? If so, what changed?

I'm pretty sure that Anchor is the parent company. Not that it matters but I think it's more fair to say that the American Assay guys are affiliated with THEM than visa versa.

Edited by denverappraiser, 12 January 2012 - 02:01 PM.

[mani1892]

Neil one of the two Dublin jewellers who stock the KD ring has told me they use AnchorCert & SafeGuard. The other retailer initially stated that the ring is uncertified but is now looking into whether they can have it certified by GIA at my request. I may have given the impression in an earlier post that one of the jewellers uses GIA but I was purely basing that on Amy's information. I suppose it probably makes sense that diamonds sold in Ireland are graded by UK lads, whereas those sold in the US, HK, etc use GIA/IGI/EGL/etc. However, I would still prefer if I could have the GIA cert. I know I probably sound like I've already decided to buy the ring and am just trying to justify it's value (which may be partly true) but by the same token I do not want to be sold a pig in a poke as we say here in Ireland!

[davidelevi]

Two points to consider:

1. Diamonds are generally graded close to point of origin (cut), not to point of sale. Not least because the trade relies on the lab report to some extent too, and not least because to be properly graded requires the diamond loose, not in the setting.

2. The American Assay and Gemological office is a subsidiary of the Birmingham (UK) Assay office. Differently from the UK, bear in mind that the US has no hallmarking acts (and statutory responsibility for Assay Offices to protect standards). Anchor Cert is the report brand, and SafeGuard is the appraisal arm. http://www.jckonline...ens_in_U_S_.php

Edited by davidelevi, 12 January 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[denverappraiser]

To add a bit to Davide's comment on labs:

The vast majority of diamonds these days are cut in India although there is a rising trend amoung source countries like Botswana and Russia to give preferrential tax treatment to cutting operations in the same country as the mines as a way of building local employment. The miners get the stones wherever God put them but he lab is chosen for marketing reasons, and marketing is a local activity. European dealers seem to do well with HRD, Japanese stores do well with CGL, Chinese stores are required to use the Chinese national lab, etc. IGI is big in HK. Many of the labs are grading stones in or near the cutting factories but they are highly competitive with one another and a single factory will use several different labs depending on what their marketing plans are for a particular stone. I have no idea how Anchor plays into this since they have effectively zero distribution in the US and I therefore have very little overlap with them. The decision of which lab to use is usually made by the cutting house and it's always made strategically. If it turns out that plans change, they or someone else may even resubmit the stone(s) to a different lab later down the path.

Edited by denverappraiser, 13 January 2012 - 09:13 PM.

[davidelevi]

If you are relatively happy with the price and most importantly with the looks, then go for it.

The issue with a lab report is not having it or not, but trusting it... I'd rather have a trusted report for something where I can compare than have three where I don't know where I stand to start with.

On the other hand, the value of a 0.40 G/SI1 fairly graded is less than $1000 (+VAT), the two 0.20 are about $250 each and the rest is a couple of hundreds, so even if they aren't fairly graded, you are unlikely to be paying a huge premium...

[davidelevi]

Erm, no... bear in mind that the setting has a cost, and given the amount of work and skill required it's not a small cost either. The prices above are for the loose stones.

[mani1892]

When you say "$1000 (+VAT)" do you mean $1000 VAT inclusive or exclusive? If exclusive, VAT would also account for some of the differential between the build and retail price..

[davidelevi]

I mean VAT exclusive. And the same for the $250 and $200.