14 replies to this topic

[Cbr1000RR]

Hi,

I'm about to purchase a loose diamond for an engagement ring, round diamond somewhere in the range of 1.25 ct, E/F or G, VS1/VS1 with the best possible cut I can get for my budget. Which is in the 10K range.

I have a friend at work that knows a wholesaler in NY, she made a purchase from him 10 years ago and has send a few family members and friends to this wholesaler.

She said he owns 4 diamond mines and only takes appointments.

Another coworker went to him, but had some family issues so she didn't buy a diamond. I asked her if the diamonds came with any certificates and she said the certificate was actually a copy of a certificate, not the original one.

I just wondering what to expect and what kind of savings I might be looking at compared to maybe some of these online sites or compared to maybe jewelers row in Philly.

Should I be weary about the fact that the certificate was a copy?

What questions should I be asking him and what should I be looking out for?

I haven't called him yet to make my appointment, wanted first to join a diamond forum and get some information from people with this kind of experience.

Thanks

Edited by Cbr1000RR, 25 October 2011 - 10:09 AM.

[davidelevi]

Welcome!

I'm very sceptical of anyone that claims to be a wholesaler but sells to consumers, one stone at a time. That to me is the definition of a retailer. As to "owning 4 diamond mines" - let's just say that I am not aware of any individual anywhere owning one diamond mine, never mind four. In any case, it's totally irrelevant to the case in hand unless he can provide you with comparable goods at competitive prices.

The report copy is not a good sign. It is acceptable practice to have a copy prior to the sale being completed (often diamonds "travel" across vendors, and the reports don't travel with the diamond, but faxing/scanning a copy is usually what happens), but at the moment of sale I would expect the original report to make an appearance.

As to prices: difficult to say, considering we don't know who you are talking to and what prices they charge for their diamonds. However, checking prices on the Diamond Finder on this site gets you "quotes" from quite a few good vendors, and it is free. Do bear in mind that small, sometimes nearly invisible details make a lot of difference in diamond pricing - a 0.98 F/VS1 and a 1.01 D/IF will look the same to all intent and purposes, but one is nearly 5 times the price of the other.

Whatever the vendor says to you, what you are looking for is not uncommon or difficult to find; there are about 10,000 stones listed for sale on this site that fit your size, colour and clarity boundaries, so don't feel in any way constrained or obliged to go with this one particular vendor.

One point on budget: $10k will just about be enough to get you a decently cut, eye-clean 1.2x G/SI1 - which still leaves about 200 stones to choose from.

Final point: nice bike!

[Cbr1000RR]

davidelevi, on 25 October 2011 - 11:57 AM, said:

Welcome!

I'm very sceptical of anyone that claims to be a wholesaler but sells to consumers, one stone at a time. That to me is the definition of a retailer. As to "owning 4 diamond mines" - let's just say that I am not aware of any individual anywhere owning one diamond mine, never mind four. In any case, it's totally irrelevant to the case in hand unless he can provide you with comparable goods at competitive prices.

The report copy is not a good sign. It is acceptable practice to have a copy prior to the sale being completed (often diamonds "travel" across vendors, and the reports don't travel with the diamond, but faxing/scanning a copy is usually what happens), but at the moment of sale I would expect the original report to make an appearance.

As to prices: difficult to say, considering we don't know who you are talking to and what prices they charge for their diamonds. However, checking prices on the Diamond Finder on this site gets you "quotes" from quite a few good vendors, and it is free. Do bear in mind that small, sometimes nearly invisible details make a lot of difference in diamond pricing - a 0.98 F/VS1 and a 1.01 D/IF will look the same to all intent and purposes, but one is nearly 5 times the price of the other.

Whatever the vendor says to you, what you are looking for is not uncommon or difficult to find; there are about 10,000 stones listed for sale on this site that fit your size, colour and clarity boundaries, so don't feel in any way constrained or obliged to go with this one particular vendor.

One point on budget: $10k will just about be enough to get you a decently cut, eye-clean 1.2x G/SI1 - which still leaves about 200 stones to choose from.

Final point: nice bike!

Thanks for responding to my post, good info.

As far as I know he only sells single diamonds by referral, not to the public. I do know he supplies a lot of retail stores. My coworker did a lot of researching for 2 years and this is the person that she found. She's really good at that, he even has her own section in the Atlantic City paper to help people find the best bargins for whatever it is they want.

Don't know much about prices and how much they have gone up. But 10 years ago she got a 2 carat I thing round, E, VS2 not sure about anything else for $8500 off of him. She said it appraised for around $26,000.

I'm going to call him tomorrow and set up an appointment, but I will first make sure he has a guarantee and will supply certificates.

Bike is awesome, Thanks :-)

[denverappraiser]

Umm. What am I missing? You ARE the public. I don't have a problem with dealers who work by appointment out of offices, that strikes me as an entirely sensible way to trade in diamonds. I don't have a problem with dealers selling things to individual buyers, but it's NOT wholesale. Whether or not he supplies stores is irrelevant, as is who owns the mines (which, as Davide points out is a highly unlikely claim by the way unless he's using a VERY peculiar definition of 'mine'). The issue is the deal he's offering YOU. Don't get distracted by the BS.

Is it a good deal? Who knows, you've got no offer. The fact that he describes himself as a 'wholesaler' I would call a bad sign. I wouldn't be worried about the copy thing unless you really believe that he wouldn't have ponied up the original if the sale happened. That would be a deal killer. it's common for sales presentations to be done with copies to avoid damage to the original document but if you buy something you should definitely get the original.

Additional potential deal killers:

Non-GIA or AGS grading. Accept nothing else

No refund policy. At a minimum 7 days 100% refund for any reason. 30 days is better. No restocking fees, no qualifications or exclusions. If you decide you're unhappy and you return the goods in the original condition you get your money back. Period.

No credit cards and/or no paper trail. If he's cheating the taxman, he'll cheat you, and if you have to have a fight about the return policy or anything else, your credit card company is your best ally.

That said, get an offer together and ask us about a specific stone. We'll help you shop it through.

Edited by denverappraiser, 25 October 2011 - 03:42 PM.

[Cbr1000RR]

denverappraiser, on 25 October 2011 - 03:36 PM, said:

Umm. What am I missing? You ARE the public. I don't have a problem with dealers who work by appointment out of offices, that strikes me as an entirely sensible way to trade in diamonds. I don't have a problem with dealers selling things to individual buyers, but it's NOT wholesale. Whether or not he supplies stores is irrelevant, as is who owns the mines (which, as Davide points out is a highly unlikely claim by the way unless he's using a VERY peculiar definition of 'mine'). The issue is the deal he's offering YOU. Don't get distracted by the BS.

Is it a good deal? Who knows, you've got no offer. The fact that he describes himself as a 'wholesaler' I would call a bad sign. I wouldn't be worried about the copy thing unless you really believe that he wouldn't have ponied up the original if the sale happened. That would be a deal killer. it's common for sales presentations to be done with copies to avoid damage to the original document but if you buy something you should definitely get the original.

Additional potential deal killers:

Non-GIA or AGS grading. Accept nothing else

No refund policy. At a minimum 7 days 100% refund for any reason. 30 days is better. No restocking fees, no qualifications or exclusions. If you decide you're unhappy and you return the goods in the original condition you get your money back. Period.

No credit cards and/or no paper trail. If he's cheating the taxman, he'll cheat you, and if you have to have a fight about the return policy or anything else, your credit card company is your best ally.

That said, get an offer together and ask us about a specific stone. We'll help you shop it through.

Thanks for the advice, GIA and AGS are the only certificates I had in mind to only accept also. My coworker mentioned about him being wholesale, but I'm sure he mentioned that to her for her to mention that to me or anyone else.

And from what I was told, he only accepts cash. But then again, that's the only way I'm going to guy one anyway. Plus I know I can get a better price when paying all in cash, that pretty much works with anything you buy, when you're buying off of someone, as not in the store.

But if I decide to take the trip to NY, I will make sure I get all my questions answered over the phone before I make the 2 1/2 hr drive.

One thing, if I was to only get a copy of the certificate, would I be able to get the original myself of would he have to supply it?

[denverappraiser]

The only reason not to give you the original GIA report is if he doesn't have it. That's a huge red flag. The reason to use copies when showing things for advertising purposes is because it reduces damage to the document itself by schleping it around between potential customers and he may be selling the stone on behalf of someone else. It helps be sure that the final customer gets one in perfect condition. So far you don't have a problem.

Yes, you can order a duplicate from GIA for a modest fee. I think it's about $50.

The wholesale/retail thing is a technicality. A sgnificant fraction of the jewelers call themselves 'wholesalers' and although I find it a little irritating I wouldn't completely discard him over it. At the same time it has no bearing whatever on whether you are getting what you think you're getting or whether you're paying a reasonable price for it.

For me, cash only with no refunds is a total deal killer at any price. I count the 2% extra that the CC companies charge as good insurance for a transaction being done with a stranger and, as I mentioned above, if he'll cheat the taxman, why do you think he'll treat you better? It's your call.

Edited by denverappraiser, 25 October 2011 - 05:51 PM.

[Cbr1000RR]

denverappraiser, on 25 October 2011 - 05:37 PM, said:

The only reason not to give you the original GIA report is if he doesn't have it. That's a huge red flag. The reason to use copies when showing things for advertising purposes is because it reduces damage to the document itself by schleping it around between potential customers and he may be selling the stone on behalf of someone else. It helps be sure that the final customer gets one in perfect condition. So far you don't have a problem.

Yes, you can order a duplicate from GIA for a modest fee. I think it's about $50.

The wholesale/retail thing is a technicality. A sgnificant fraction of the jewelers call themselves 'wholesalers' and although I find it a little irritating I wouldn't completely discard him over it. At the same time it has no bearing whatever on whether you are getting what you think you're getting or whether you're paying a reasonable price for it.

For me, cash only with no refunds is a total deal killer at any price. I count the 2% extra that the CC companies charge as good insurance for a transaction being done with a stranger and, as I mentioned above, if he'll cheat the taxman, why do you think he'll treat you better? It's your call.

I'll see what happens when I give him a call tomorrow.

Thanks Again

[Cbr1000RR]

I have an appointment on Weds. He's actually a diamond cutter, he sells to stores and a lot to .com companies. He used to work for GIA and is a professional grader. He does not sell to the public at all, only to very close friends and family.

I was able to get an appointment with him only because he's been friends with a co-worker of mine for 15yrs.

He said he'll spend about 2 to 3 hours explaining everything to me when I go so I know exactly what I'm getting and what everything means.

It was pretty interesting listening to him explain things over the phone.

[davidelevi]

Good luck - and let us know how you get on.

[denverappraiser]

OK, so we're talking about a former GIA worker who currently is making his way as a cutter who only sells to stores, .com's, friends, family and co-workers of friends, and who sidelines as a multiple mine owner.

Who only accepts cash.

Best of luck. Let us know how it goes.

Edited by denverappraiser, 27 October 2011 - 06:57 PM.

[Cbr1000RR]

denverappraiser, on 27 October 2011 - 04:37 PM, said:

OK, so we're talking about a former GIA worker who currently is making his way as a cutter who only sells to stores, .com's, friends, family and co-workers of friends, and who sidelines as a multiple mine owner.

Who only accepts cash.

Best of luck. Let us know how it goes.

I didn't get a chance to ask him about the mines. I will when I see him, that is what my co worker told me, maybe she misunderstood.

He is the one that has that Diamond from Brazil, he bought it from a Brazilian miner when he was living in Brazil. It's actually worth 2.9 million. He was offered 1.4 million for it but turned it down. I found this out when I googled his name.

He did tell me he does not sell to the public. He has two offices, one in NY and north Jersey, you just can't walk in and buy a diamond, if so then I would consider him to be a retail seller. He has known my co-worker for 15 years and that's why he his seeing me.

It was pretty interesting when I was talking to him. He mention that he has been working on this new cutting procedure ( whatever it's called ) for the last 2 years and is in the process of getting it patented.

I will let everyone know how it goes.

[davidelevi]

Don't be deceived into the idea that you are getting into some sort of exclusive deal. "Not selling to the public" and "by appointment only" are two very different things. Blue Nile is a retailer, but doesn't allow any members of the public in their offices (not surprisingly, since they won't have any diamonds to show them). Many of the larger and most reputable "online" dealers have "appointments only" policies, because their premises are not set up to deal with impromptu visits by members of the public - security and sometimes simply space (our case) are significant concerns.

[barry]

Let us know how the appointment goes.

Edited by barry, 31 October 2011 - 01:16 AM.

[denverappraiser]

Cbr1000RR, on 30 October 2011 - 02:26 PM, said:

He did tell me he does not sell to the public. He has two offices, one in NY and north Jersey, you just can't walk in and buy a diamond, if so then I would consider him to be a retail seller. He has known my co-worker for 15 years and that's why he his seeing me.

I hate to keep beating on this dead horse but it seems to keep coming back up. When I went to business school back in the 80's, retailing was a word used to describe selling goods or services one at a time directly to the end consumer and a 'retailer' was someone who did that. That's exactly what's happening in this very transaction. It has nothing to do with decor, pricing, appointments, signage or even who else they might sell to under different circumstances.

By the way, my office is by appointment only and is located in a locked building prominently labled 'wholesale only' on the outside. I'm a retailer (mostly).

Edited by denverappraiser, 31 October 2011 - 06:05 AM.

[Cbr1000RR]

denverappraiser, on 31 October 2011 - 06:04 AM, said:

Cbr1000RR, on 30 October 2011 - 02:26 PM, said:

He did tell me he does not sell to the public. He has two offices, one in NY and north Jersey, you just can't walk in and buy a diamond, if so then I would consider him to be a retail seller. He has known my co-worker for 15 years and that's why he his seeing me.

I hate to keep beating on this dead horse but it seems to keep coming back up. When I went to business school back in the 80's, retailing was a word used to describe selling goods or services one at a time directly to the end consumer and a 'retailer' was someone who did that. That's exactly what's happening in this very transaction. It has nothing to do with decor, pricing, appointments, signage or even who else they might sell to under different circumstances.

By the way, my office is by appointment only and is located in a locked building prominently labled 'wholesale only' on the outside. I'm a retailer (mostly).

I understand what you're saying. I guess my definition of a retailer is someone that has an actual business that anyone can go in an shop.

Retailer/Wholesaler, doesn't matter to me as long as I get a good deal :-).