23 replies to this topic

[Re83L]

Hi there.

I'm from South Africa (European South-African ) - I always laugh terms like "African-American"
I'm looking to get engaged over the next few months.

My girlfriend likes yellow gold, and I intend to buy her a simple plain solitaire (six clawed) with only one stone in the centre.
Now I've received numerous quotes on diamonds and rings.

Usually its $800 for the gold + labor plus then the stone.

I'm a true amateur, have been reading up on all the C's, out of which I feel Cut is the most important.

What I'm looking for is the following:
0.7-0.9ct
Colour - G-I
Clarity - Up to SI1 - as long as inclusions aren't visible to the naked eye and doesn't affect light coming through the top.
Cut: Looking for either a round brilliant cut or a Emerald cut. - Must be "Excellent" or "Very good"

Now I've received a quote for the following:
H / SI2 / 0.76ct stone - $2800

I find this quite cheap.

The stone is certified by EGL South Africa, and has the following additional details:
Total Diameters: 5.86mm
Total Depth: 60.6%
Table: 66%
Crown Angle: 12%
Pavillion: 44.4%
Cutlet 0.7%
Girdle: 2%

What worries me is the SI2 rating - this may point to bad inclusions?
I don't understand the meaning of all the last stats, could someone explain or link somewhere I can judge for myself? Is there anything else I should look out for?

As to the above, what would the ideal ratios be?

Do you guys know where in SA I could get diamonds/rings cheapest? (Since most come from here, it should be as cheap as in the UK / US)
My budget can be extended to $5500 easily, but I want something that says: "I LOVE you", without making our friends that can't afford expensive diamonds feel jealous.

Any ideas, comments welcome, as I said, I only started reading up on diamonds last night

Help appreciated, this site is awesome!

Edited by Re83L, 31 August 2011 - 04:54 AM.

[denverappraiser]

I’ll leave it to others to address the stone but I want to address a specific misconception in your posts.
Diamonds come from SA and therefore should be cheaper there.

There’s a fair amount of diamond mining activity in SA to be sure but it’s no longer a majority. Actually, all of Africa is only about 40% of the mining. More than 90% of diamonds are currently being cut in India regardless of where the mine is located.

Shipping in the age of FedEx has become remarkably efficient. Diamonds are light weight, durable, not perishable, and they can travel around the world with, frankly, stunning effectiveness. The difference between being located in SA, or India, Antwerp, New York or rural Colorado is in the dozens of dollars, not the thousands you’re imagining. FAR more important is the details of the dealer and the local tax and distribution systems (stuff like banking, security, shipping, and the like). SA is, in general, a fair amount less efficient in terms of the way things are bought and sold but it’s going to boil down to the specifics of the dealer you want to work with, not their address. There’s some definite value to working with someone close to home and that’s worth some extra money but I think you’re making a fundamental mistake to assume that you’ll get a discount from doing so. You’ll pay extra, but it may be worth it to you anyway.

Edited by denverappraiser, 31 August 2011 - 08:06 AM.

[Re83L]

Thank you for your reply!

SA is bad in terms of import duties and VAT (value added tax - 14%).
In that regards I'll probably have to find out what the duties would be if I imported a diamond / ring.

I'd be more than happy to work with an overseas company / jeweler.
Currently I'm not educated enough on the subject to be able to trust online stores enough with what is a lot of money for me.

I see from the "Diamond Finder" that the price I was quoted may be a bit high.

If there is any dealers / jewelers out there that's willing to try and win my confidence, I'd be more than happy to work with any of you. As long as you can be recommended by someone from the site with many posts.

Edit: I just found this:

Restrictions for Import to South Africa

• Jewelry, gold, precious metals, and precious stones are limited to US $2000

So that means I won't be able to use an online International store, my diamond will definitely be more expensive than $2000

Edited by Re83L, 31 August 2011 - 08:29 AM.

[denverappraiser]

Several of the regulars here ARE dealers. You'll see 'verified jeweler' underneith their pictures and there's usually a link at the bottom of each post that leads to their websites, rather like where mine says 'Professional Appraisals in Denver'.

[Re83L]

Just realized again the worthlessness of living in a third world country - I'll have to pay enormous premiums to buy the ring in SA, and can't make use of all the nice services on these forums. Or am I reading the quote above wrong and I'll only pay duties on the first $2000 of the item's worth? (Doesn't make sense)

Does anybody know of a way I would be able to buy a ring from the US and get it into South-Africa?

I don't mind paying import duties, taxes etc but it seems like I won't be allowed to import it at all if I look at the government's website.

This is an amazing site, I've learnt so much over the past hour!

Edited by Re83L, 31 August 2011 - 09:13 AM.

[davidelevi]

Can you provide the link to the site where you found that restriction?

Often what you get on government sites is general guidance and possibly linked to "duty free" amounts - or sometimes strange conditions attach to the import (e.g. "this refers to rough diamonds not originating in SA"). You can get much more detailed information from South African customs, possibly if they have an online tariff.

Generally trade restrictions are bilateral (aka "commercial vendettas"), and it would not be to the benefit of SA to restrict the movement of diamonds, since it is clearly primarily an exporter. Amongst other things, loose diamonds are generally (for sure in US, EU, CH, ISR, CDA, AUS) non-dutiable, so I'd be really surprised if there were a blanket ban on imports ('cause, let's face it, $2000 won't get you a lot of diamonds, commercially).

Other than that, there's plenty of ways you can get a ring into SA. I am sure that as long as you pay for accommodation for a couple of days, my wife will willingly act as courier, carrying it through customs on her finger...

Edited by davidelevi, 31 August 2011 - 09:22 AM.

[Greg Y]

YOu could contact each of the companies on the diamond finder and ask them what their restrictions/costs/fees are to ship to South Africa.

Your other option? Buy a ticket to the US, the Rand is kinda strong - 7/1 and purchase here. I don't remember the questions they asked me at immigrations on the way to SA though.

[Re83L]

Can you provide the link to the site where you found that restriction?

http://fedex.com/za/...portguidelines/

Anyways, yes, I might be able.
My family runs a game lodge ([url]http://www.thurulodge.co.za/) and they have numerous American tourists coming over.
I might just ask one of them to bring it in.

As far as I can see, even if I pay the import taxes and duties into SA, I'll end up paying 25% of the invoice amount, which I believe to be ridiculous.
For that price I'd rather come and see the US myself and just buy a very expensive ring

Other than that, there's plenty of ways you can get a ring into SA. I am sure that as long as you pay for accommodation for a couple of days, my wife will willingly act as courier, carrying it through customs on her finger...

Haha, only read this part now.. Look at the link provided (Thuru Lodge), you're welcome to visit

Edited by Re83L, 31 August 2011 - 09:48 AM.

[davidelevi]

Aaahh - the Fedex site is listing what they consider "Importable", including the risk they may want to offer you insurance for.

I think Greg's advice is very sound - we will willingly ship to South Africa, for example, though the issue of duty/VAT/other taxes is still there.

[davidelevi]

Just to address the questions that so far Neil and I have not been addressing...

Hi there.

I'm from South Africa (European South-African ) - I always laugh terms like "African-American"
I'm looking to get engaged over the next few months.

My girlfriend likes yellow gold, and I intend to buy her a simple plain solitaire (six clawed) with only one stone in the centre.
Now I've received numerous quotes on diamonds and rings.

Usually its $800 for the gold + labor plus then the stone.

It sounds reasonable for a good quality setting - at US prices. You can spend less, but you will get what you pay for (i.e. less). Now, that is one place where conceivably SA could be cheaper, because even at the astronomical prices gold is at today, there's only about $250 of gold in the cost, the rest is labour, energy and profit.

I'm a true amateur, have been reading up on all the C's, out of which I feel Cut is the most important.

What I'm looking for is the following:
0.7-0.9ct
Colour - G-I
Clarity - Up to SI1 - as long as inclusions aren't visible to the naked eye and doesn't affect light coming through the top.
Cut: Looking for either a round brilliant cut or a Emerald cut. - Must be "Excellent" or "Very good"

Sensible set of specs. A few points to take into account:

1. Size: 0.70 and 0.90 are two price thresholds - meaning the price/carat goes up significantly. With a budget of USD 4000 (assuming $800 for setting and $700 for taxes), you can afford a round 0.7x G-VS2 or an H-SI1 0.8x with truly excellent cut. And you are right, cut is the most important.

2. Shape: If you go with an emerald cut, you can afford a 0.9x F-VS2, but the issue here is guidance on cut is difficult to get except through the dealer. AGS grades emerald cut diamonds for cut, but AGS graded diamonds are few and far between.

3. Clarity: no danger to sparkle until you hit I2, except for a few quite rare cases. Certainly not at SI1. Unfortunately, no way of telling if an SI1 is eye clean without seeing it - this means you or the dealer.

Now I've received a quote for the following:
H / SI2 / 0.76ct stone - $2800

I find this quite cheap.

The stone is certified by EGL South Africa, and has the following additional details:
Total Diameters: 5.86mm
Total Depth: 60.6%
Table: 66%
Crown Angle: 12%
Pavillion: 44.4%
Cutlet 0.7%
Girdle: 2%

I assume this is a round - and no, it's not necessarily cheap. And unfortunately you have very little information on the stone - including what colour, clarity or cut quality it really is.

Read here for some threads on the "dangers" of non-reliable grading (including alas EGL-SA)

http://www.diamondreview.com/forum/topic/7515-egl-international-is-this-a-legit-appraisal-firm/
http://www.diamondreview.com/forum/topic/7489-potential-value-in-egl/
http://www.diamondreview.com/forum/topic/7436-advice-on-this-35-ct-round-diamond/

What worries me is the SI2 rating - this may point to bad inclusions?

It may - in fact, it being an EGL-International it probably does, but it is not necessarily so.

I don't understand the meaning of all the last stats, could someone explain or link somewhere I can judge for myself? Is there anything else I should look out for?

As to the above, what would the ideal ratios be?

Start by reading the tutorial/articles here: http://www.diamondreview.com/articles

If you want more (and frankly better!) info on cut, a good place to start is here: http://www.gia.edu/diamondcut/

and this papers is more technical but still readable. Although it's mostly on rounds it will also give you a good idea on what to look for in other shapes.

http://www.gia.edu/diamondcut/pdf/cut_fall2004.pdf

It's a lot of reading, but do come back with more questions and requests for help.

[Re83L]

Wow, I can't believe you'd go through all that just to help someone you don't even know.

Thank you VERY much for all your comments.
I spent the last couple of minutes reading most of the guides, therefore understanding most of it better.

You get what you pay for - that's very true, therefore I'm not at all against paying a large premium for labour.
What I am against is SA's ridiculous taxes, so I'd rather fly out to the US / Switzerland, collect the ring and walk through customs on this side again than give SA's corrupt government more of my money.

I can stretch my budget to $6000 as well (actually budget is no issue, I just want my future wife not to be robbed, eg - the ring must be just slightly above average )

I'll try and access your site as well, maybe we can work something out regarding the shipping.
To be honest, none of the jewelers I contacted in SA had info on their diamonds other than very limited EGL certificates, they wanted me to come and look at it myself.

I think I'll risk importing the diamond / ring

Lastly, my girlfriend's finger is 6.75" (Size "N") , maybe I should look at around 1ct

Edited by Re83L, 31 August 2011 - 10:26 AM.

[davidelevi]

You are most welcome. It's good to help!

On size: bear in mind that price/carat shoots up by about 50% when you go past the 1.00 threshold. So, unless money is really no object, stay around 0.90 for maximum bang-for-the-buck.

To give you some sense of size - my wife is a 6.75/N/53 as well.

Here is a 1.13 square emerald:


and here is a 0.92 round (in Fancy Deep Yellow-Orange)

[Re83L]

I've found my diamond and my jeweler!

There's a GIA lab in Johannesburg. They ask about $25 to certify a diamond, where-as EGL South-Africa also asks $25.
The jeweler I found told me that since it's so cheap to have diamonds certified, they'd have GIA certify a diamond, and when it doesn't sell, EGL would do it a second time, giving it slightly better color / clarity, which in turn would cause the public to buy it. Weird, but that's how SA's public mind operates.

That been said, it's still very difficult to find GIA diamonds in SA.

The diamond I found has the following characteristics:
0.85ct / F / SI2, Excellent - GIA's "excellent cut" summarizes all the other details for me. (No fluorescence, excellent symmetry and polish)
The stone also has GIA's microscopic ID number on the side.
Price: $4158

The inclusion is quite small, black (I know..), but it took me quite a while to spot it using a loupe. It's only visible on a certain angle.
When comparing the diamond with H SI1 and G VS1 (GIA) stones, the diamond had more brilliance and were just still a more preferrable choice.

I'm very happy that I found a diamond.
Even though I trust the jeweler, should I check the stones details online again as well?

Now a second question:

If I could choose any ring, this is the one I'd buy: (From davidelevi's store)
http://rockdiamond.com/index.php/jewelry/diamond-ring-120ct-l-vs1-daussi-cushion-diamond-beautiful-double-row-shank-r3622
The claws used here are pointy rather than big round lumpy claws that almost all chain-stores use.

There's much more detail and even the stones on the band is secured with small claws. I love that amount of detail.
Is this something that good jewelers would be able to do, or do they need specific equiptment? Even davidelevi's store uses rounded claws for round diamonds, is the claws above only for cushion-cut diamonds?

(My jeweler is a lecturer in jewelery desgin, so I'm guessing he's good, whether he can do something like the above remains to be seen)

Now that I've found my stone and jeweler, any other questions / checks before I go and put a deposit down tomorrow?

If anybody wants to browse his site, here it is:
http://www.capediamonds.co.za/index.php?choice=engagementrings

Thanks for all the help!

[denverappraiser]

I must say it's somewhat tacky to be asking Davide questions about how to best knock off his stuff but this seems like one for the jeweler you're considering to do the work in any case. Can HE make it? I wouldn't know. Ask him.

[denverappraiser]

The jeweler I found told me that since it's so cheap to have diamonds certified, they'd have GIA certify a diamond, and when it doesn't sell, EGL would do it a second time, giving it slightly better color / clarity, which in turn would cause the public to buy it. Weird, but that's how SA's public mind operates.

That's how the public mindset exists everywhere, not just SA. That's why EGL exists. Sometimes the difference isn't so slight.

I'm intrigued that GIA services are cheaper there than they are here. Are you sure about that?

[Re83L]

I must say it's somewhat tacky to be asking Davide questions about how to best knock off his stuff but this seems like one for the jeweler you're considering to do the work in any case. Can HE make it? I wouldn't know. Ask him.

Lol, I mailed davide asking whether we could find a way to ship to SA, but he didn't really get back to me on it.

And I'm not going to knock his work exactly, for instance I'll go single-band vs the dual he used, is "stealing" claw-endpoints not allowed?

I'd think my comment on davide's ring is great publicity! I browsed tons of sites, and his work is simply the most beautiful I could find.
If I didn't have to pay 38% import duties/taxes into SA I'd most certainly have used him as jeweler.

Regarding GIA SA's prices - I'll ask again tomorrow, but from what I could gather he mentioned about R200 ($28) for the GIA certification here.

Again, if anybody from this forum plans on coming to SA, you could bring me a ring from "Diamonds by Lauren" and stay a week in our holiday home on the Garden Route for free, or go to the family's hunting lodge for a couple of days if its available (Our holiday home / apartment is always available, we only go three weeks a year)

Here's a link http://www.ttps.co.z...rtenbos/r1-5494

Use it / don't use it

[denverappraiser]

Anything you want is allowed. There is a whole industry in Tiffany 'inspired' designs and most people, including Davides place sell them. At the same time, I wouldn't go asking Tiffanys questions about how to do it. I agree that imitation is flattery and I don't have a problem with hiring a local expert to make whatever you want. I don't want to sound like I'm talking against Davide's outfit but I LIKE it when people hire local jewelers. By all means go with whoever offers the best deal for your own situation but I have to say, my observation has been that DBL is a pretty price aggressive place. If you're finding things substantially cheaper elsewhere, make sure you're comparing apples to apples.

Edited by denverappraiser, 05 September 2011 - 03:17 PM.

[davidelevi]

I'm not particularly proprietorial on claw design... but no, there is no reason why on round diamonds one cannot have claws (I cannot see any photos through my connection at the moment). In fact, the "round" prong tips and the pointed claws are like that because they are made by two different craftsmen with two different personal working styles.

I would also like to apologise publicly - I was under the impression that we did get back to you, and I'm sorry that we didn't. In any case, shipping to South Africa is not a problem at all. Honestly. The issue with FedEx is only to do with declared value and insurance, and they would ship to SA as long as we do not expect them to cover the shipment with their insurance (but we can do it using our trade insurance policy).

[Re83L]

In fact, the "round" prong tips and the pointed claws are like that because they are made by two different craftsmen with two different personal working styles.

Would you say the pointed claws are weaker / more prone to hook etc than the round ones?

The picture I linked in my previous post is not even your best work, that's reserved for all those halo-rings, they're true masterpieces

I would also like to apologise publicly - I was under the impression that we did get back to you, and I'm sorry that we didn't. In any case, shipping to South Africa is not a problem at all. Honestly. The issue with FedEx is only to do with declared value and insurance, and they would ship to SA as long as we do not expect them to cover the shipment with their insurance (but we can do it using our trade insurance policy).

It was over a weekend, so I didn't necessarily expect you to get back to me ASAP

[davidelevi]

Weaker - yes in theory. The claw tips are thinner and longer, so there is more leverage, but I don't recall any accidents of broken tips/prongs with either type.

More prone to snagging - only very marginally; I can rub either type on a silk tie without any consequence. I suspect if I were to press down quite hard the claws would snag sooner than the round tip.

Thanks for the nice words!

PS - I just realised that today is Labour Day in the US and Canada, so the "weekend" is not quite over yet

Edited by davidelevi, 05 September 2011 - 12:00 PM.