31 replies to this topic

[Locke]

Hello!
I've been reading this forum and have learned a lot already. Thanks!

My Question: My girlfriend would really like a 3 carat diamond.

Since my budget is not endless, she doesn't mind going to "I" colour, and compromising on the clarity as long as it looks nice.

So, I'm wondering, at that size (2.7c to 3c), am I safe buying an I or J colour, SI1, Ideal GIA rated diamond? I was thinking that if I go for a Blue Nile "Very Good" or "Ideal" cut it should mean the stone is clean?

I mention Blue Nile because they seem to be reputable ( [url="http://DiamondHelpers.com"]Diamond Helpers[/url] recommends them), and I've been online shopping already and I don't see that other sites are much better priced (for identical GIA rated stones). Also I mention Blue Nile because they have a "Tiffany knife edge 6 prong setting" that she likes. The alternative is to buy a loose diamond, and get a local jeweler to mount it.

I've seen stones at much better prices, but not GIA rated, which I now understand means the stone is probably not really "SI1" (ie: not "eye clean")

Also: I've noticed that many stones aren't laser engraved. Why? How safe / confident can I feel that the stone matches it's certificate if it's number is not laser etched?

Edited by Locke, 24 August 2011 - 03:42 PM.

[davidelevi]

Locke, on 24 August 2011 - 03:39 PM, said:

Hello!
I've been reading this forum and have learned a lot already. Thanks!

My Question: My girlfriend would really like a 3 carat diamond.

Since my budget is not endless, she doesn't mind going to "I" colour, and compromising on the clarity as long as it looks nice.

So, I'm wondering, at that size (2.7c to 3c), am I safe buying an I or J colour, SI1, Ideal GIA rated diamond?

What does "safe" mean? Will it look large - yes, it will. Will it look white? From the top, possibly; from the side it may show some yellow, and a J noticeably more than an I. Will it be eye-clean? Maybe. Will it look good? Perhaps.

For example, GIA does not use the term "Ideal" in any of its descriptions/grades, so anything that is described as "GIA Ideal" is a vendor's definition. Is it valid? That depends on the vendor and the meaning you (and they) put in the word "ideal".

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I was thinking that if I go for a Blue Nile "Very Good" or "Ideal" cut it should mean the stone is clean?

Nope. Cut has nothing (well, not much) to do with clarity. Many SI1 are eye-clean, but not all, and particularly in a larger stone you need to tread carefully, because inclusions may be more visible with larger facets acting as larger windows to peer into the stone.

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I mention Blue Nile because they seem to be reputable (Diamond Helpers recommends them), and I've been online shopping already and I don't see that other sites are much better priced (for identical GIA rated stones).

Blue Nile are reputable, and as you point out they are competitive on prices. That doesn't necessarily make them the best when you want to buy an SI1 or SI2 stone, because they never see the diamond. Their business model is pure drop-ship, so when you ask them questions about a diamond what you get is second hand information at best. Not necessarily good when there is uncertainty as to whether a stone is eye-clean and/or you would like some photographs to see what it really looks like.

BTW: I am puzzled as to why you believe DiamondHelpers are an authoritative source of opinion on diamond merchants - their site is little more than a covert brokerage operation, and is full of simplistic, out-of-date and sometimes outright wrong information.

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Also I mention Blue Nile because they have a "Tiffany knife edge 6 prong setting" that she likes. The alternative is to buy a loose diamond, and get a local jeweler to mount it.

There are plenty of other options; practically all dealers will be able to offer you a Tiffany-style knife edge 6 prong setting, which leaves you with more choice on where to buy the diamond and the setting. Which I would suggest - if at all possible - you get from one place, avoiding unpleasant discussions if anything goes wrong.

Take into account that not all settings are created equal; there are significant differences in quality and durability between a $3000 hand-fabricated setting in platinum and a $600 mass-produced cast setting in 14K white gold. I'm not suggesting that a $3000 setting is necessarily right for you - I'm just pointing out that often one gets what one pays for. Value is a different consideration entirely.

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I've seen stones at much better prices, but not GIA rated, which I now understand means the stone is probably not really "SI1" (ie: not "eye clean")

The issue with non-GIA grading is well described/dealt with in these recent threads:

http://www.diamondre...appraisal-firm/
http://www.diamondre...l-value-in-egl/
http://www.diamondre...-round-diamond/

The potential for getting burned on a non-GIA grade is much higher than just on clarity/eye-cleanness. And even with a GIA or AGS grade, SI1 does not equal eye-clean. There are eye-clean SI1, and there are (rare) non-eye-clean VS2.

You do well to demand that a diamond of the size and value as the one you are considering is graded by an independent lab, and that the lab is reputable - this means GIA, AGSL and at a pinch HRD.

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Also: I've noticed that many stones aren't laser engraved. Why? How safe / confident can I feel that the stone matches it's certificate if it's number is not laser etched?

Unfortunately, a laser inscription is easily erased, altered or duplicated, so it's not much of a guarantee anyway. A much safer means of identification is to use the diamond's characteristics (inclusions and surface blemishes) as "fingerprints" - which is why grading reports provide plots of them. It takes a little bit to find them the first time, but after you have trained yourself for a little time you'll pick your diamond out of a pile of similar ones without fail.

Edited by davidelevi, 24 August 2011 - 11:53 PM.

[barry]

Larger size diamonds in the 2 carat+ in the I-J range tend to draw coloration and hue and can face up off-white. Would your gal be comfortable with that possibility?

Work with an Internet diamond vendor that actually sees, examines, and vets the diamond for you and will supply photos and reports.

Insofar as Tiffany replica settings are concerned, there are many companies selling them at various price points. The lower priced rings are not an altruistic venture by the seller-they're making a profit. The low price can reflect a ring that is plated, hollowed inside, and/or lightweight. Craftsmanship is a factor as well.

Bottom line is you get what you pay.

You're spending a hefty amount of money on a diamond, don't short change yourself on the setting.

[Locke]

davidelevi, on 24 August 2011 - 11:51 PM, said:

What does "safe" mean? Will it look large - yes, it will. Will it look white? From the top, possibly; from the side it may show some yellow, and a J noticeably more than an I. Will it be eye-clean? Maybe. Will it look good? Perhaps.

"Will it look good? Perhaps." Ouch!? You mean I'm not even guaranteed to have it look good after all that money? Even if I get an excellent cut, near colorless, SI1 (supposed to be eye-clean) rock?

Is a J color noticeably more yellow than an I? We saw a 2.5carat "I" in store at Tiffany's, and she liked that color. Would a J really be that different? (This will be in a platinum setting, which I assume would make it look more white)

By "safe" I just mean that I want it to look good, even if by going rock bottom on the specs (J, SI1) I'm sacrificing any bragging rights or investment value (don't care about either). Am I being unrealistic, or asking too much? I sure don't want to spend $30,000 and get an ugly yellowish blurry diamond.



Re: GIA "Ideal"
GIA grade goes up to "Excellent". So that's what I'm going by. Should I go by something else? I'm just using the "ideal" designation for the search engines.
The sales rep from Cartier was bashing the Tiffany grading system, saying they grade "in house" and aren't reliable.


Re: SI1 in a larger stone you need to tread carefully
OK, so SI1 are probably "eye clean" for smaller stones. But are most still eye clean in a 3 carat stone? Or is this rare in this size?


Am I wrong in thinking that this SI1 looks blurry?
[url][url]http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1334735.asp[/url][/url]
and this SI1 looks good?
[url="http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-SI1-Premium-Cut-Round-Diamond-1389991.asp"][url][url][url][url]http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-SI1-Premium-Cut-Round-Diamond-1389991.asp[/url][/url][/url][/url][/url]


Re: Where to shop for large SI1 eye clean diamond

Can you recommend other online jewelers with good reputations for such a diamond? I see that [url="http:///www.jamesallen.com"]James Allen[/url] offers pictures. And I've seen them recommended on this board.
But if most SI1 diamonds are "eye clean", maybe I can take the risk of ordering since the worse case is that I pay shipping to send it back. Is this a wrong way of thinking? If most large SI1 stone's aren't eye clean, then obviously shipping costs and time could quickly add up. Should I stick only to sites that offer pictures?

davidelevi, on 24 August 2011 - 11:51 PM, said:

"Tiffany knife edge 6 prong setting" ...diamond and the setting. Which I would suggest - if at all possible - you get from one place, avoiding unpleasant discussions if anything goes wrong.

Thanks for the tip! So I guess you're in general against buying a loose stone and getting it set by a local merchant.

davidelevi, on 24 August 2011 - 11:51 PM, said:

Take into account that not all settings are created equal; there are significant differences in quality and durability between a $3000 hand-fabricated setting in platinum and a $600 mass-produced cast setting in 14K white gold.

Thanks for the heads up. I guess I had assumed that if a reputable company offered a $800 ring it would be fine. James Allen offers a $1250 one. Problem is, I have no way of knowing if that one is better, or good enough, or whatever.

davidelevi, on 24 August 2011 - 11:51 PM, said:

You do well to demand that a diamond of the size and value as the one you are considering is graded by an independent lab, and that the lab is reputable - this means GIA, AGSL and at a pinch HRD.

So I know I definitely can't rely on EGL for a diamond of this size. But are GIA and AGSL equivalent, or is one "stricter"? (from the point of view of having an SI1 be eye clean at 2.7 to 3 carats)

davidelevi, on 24 August 2011 - 11:51 PM, said:

Unfortunately, a laser inscription is easily erased, altered or duplicated, so it's not much of a guarantee anyway. A much safer means of identification is to use the diamond's characteristics (inclusions and surface blemishes)

I guess it's a good thing I'm going for SI1, since it will make my diamond easier to spot. When you say "easily erased". are we talking any jeweler has the equipment in the back office, or does it take expensive equipment that only big labs have?

I thought laser engraving would be offered as a service but I haven't seen it listed on Blue Nile, Union Diamond or James Allen.

barry, on 25 August 2011 - 02:22 AM, said:

Larger size diamonds in the 2 carat+ in the I-J range tend to draw coloration and hue and can face up off-white. Would your gal be comfortable with that possibility?

All I can say is that we saw a 2.5 carat "I" in Tiffany's, and compared it side by side with an "F" I think. She saw the difference, she preferred the I. Thank God! I'm just wondering if a J is that much different than an I.

barry, on 25 August 2011 - 02:22 AM, said:

Work with an Internet diamond vendor that actually sees, examines, and vets the diamond for you and will supply photos and reports.

Is there a list of reputable internet vendors that do this or offer photos?

barry, on 25 August 2011 - 02:22 AM, said:

Tiffany replica settings ...Bottom line is you get what you pay. You're spending a hefty amount of money on a diamond, don't short change yourself on the setting.

Thanks, I really hadn't considered it very much. I guess I just assumed that the setting would be a "simple" issue...


Thanks for all the help, it's much much appreciated!

Edited by Locke, 25 August 2011 - 08:58 AM.

[barry]

Locke;

We provide photos and light performance analyses.

[davidelevi]

Locke, on 25 August 2011 - 08:50 AM, said:

"Will it look good? Perhaps." Ouch!? You mean I'm not even guaranteed to have it look good after all that money? Even if I get an excellent cut, near colorless, SI1 (supposed to be eye-clean) rock?

IMPORTANT NOTE: SI1 DOES NOT EQUAL EYE CLEAN. Nor does VS2, for that matter. Non eye-clean VS2 are rare, but they exist. Many eye-clean SI1 also exist, even in large stones, but don't assume (you know: ass-u-me) that an SI1 will be eye clean. Will it look good if it's eye clean? Well, if it is graded "Excellent" cut by GIA it will. My concern was (is) that you are flying blind if you rely on vendor provided cut grades like "GIA Ideal".

Also, unfortunately, $30k does not really buy you a nice 3 carat J/SI1. It will buy you a stone where you will need to make considerable trade-offs on cut or clarity (hopefully not both, but one will have to give, most likely). On the other hand, if you went down to below 3.00 - say 2.80-2.90, you'd save enough on the price/carat to be able to afford a nicely cut, eye-clean, I colour stone.

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Is a J color noticeably more yellow than an I? We saw a 2.5carat "I" in store at Tiffany's, and she liked that color. Would a J really be that different? (This will be in a platinum setting, which I assume would make it look more white)

By "safe" I just mean that I want it to look good, even if by going rock bottom on the specs (J, SI1) I'm sacrificing any bragging rights or investment value (don't care about either). Am I being unrealistic, or asking too much? I sure don't want to spend $30,000 and get an ugly yellowish blurry diamond.

A well cut M will look rather white from the top - never mind a J; the issue is that with a 3 carat rock you will also see a lot of diamond from the side, and there I'd recommend you don't go above I. Also remember that there's I that is very nearly H, and I that is very nearly J. Another reason not to fish too close to the bottom of the pond, especially for large diamonds.

I think you get enough bragging rights with the size, so don't worry about that. And an excellent cut, middling colour, middling clarity 3 carat is probably a better investment than a 1 carat D/IF (for roughly the same kind of money too) - not that either is a good investment, if you know what I mean.

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Re: GIA "Ideal"
GIA grade goes up to "Excellent". So that's what I'm going by. Should I go by something else? I'm just using the "ideal" designation for the search engines.
The sales rep from Cartier was bashing the Tiffany grading system, saying they grade "in house" and aren't reliable.

GIA excellent or AGS 0-2 (Ideal -> Very good) are good criteria; just make sure that whatever cut grade you look at is provided by the lab, not the vendor. There's a couple of the big guys that grade stones more on commercial criteria than on actual looks...

Tiffany has been grading smaller stones "in house" for a long time, and they seem to have started grading all stones in house since a couple of years. At least on colour and clarity, I think they are quite consistent and relatively strict. Cut-wise, a diamond cut to Tiffany specs is quite nice; not the best, but they do cut rounds very consistently, so if you like them you are safe.

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Re: SI1 in a larger stone you need to tread carefully
OK, so SI1 are probably "eye clean" for smaller stones. But are most still eye clean in a 3 carat stone? Or is this rare in this size?

See important note above - SI1 not equal eye-clean. No, they are not rare, but I would not buy a 3 ct SI1 sight unseen.

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Am I wrong in thinking that this SI1 looks blurry?
http://www.jamesalle...ond-1334735.asp
and this SI1 looks good?
http://www.jamesalle...ond-1389991.asp

JA's photos are of good quality, but they are meant primarily for clarity evaluation (and even then, with only one photo, it's of limited value). I think the blurriness of the first photo is in the limited depth of field of the photograph, not in the diamond, but it still does the work. FWIW - I would not consider either of those two perfectly eye-clean, but if I had to choose, I'd pick the 3.01 - there is only one visible inclusion from the top (white feather) and it's better cut. It is less expensive because of fluorescence.

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Re: Where to shop for large SI1 eye clean diamond

Can you recommend other online jewelers with good reputations for such a diamond? I see that James Allen offers pictures. And I've seen them recommended on this board.
But if most SI1 diamonds are "eye clean", maybe I can take the risk of ordering since the worse case is that I pay shipping to send it back. Is this a wrong way of thinking? If most large SI1 stone's aren't eye clean, then obviously shipping costs and time could quickly add up. Should I stick only to sites that offer pictures?

Most could mean 51%... though I'd say it's a bit more than that. The problem is that at $30k (not $35k) you are fishing near the bottom. And yes, at those prices and for those 4Cs I would stick to vendors that offer photos and IdealScope images. Either directly like many of the smaller "high service" boutiques, or on request like Barry (Excel Diamonds).

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Thanks for the tip! So I guess you're in general against buying a loose stone and getting it set by a local merchant.

I think in general there are significant advantages in getting someone do the whole work and take responsibility for the finished product, particularly if there are risks in setting the diamond. Having said that, I have often bought stones that someone else has set - but I also know who to trust. If you have a trusted local merchant, by any means use them!

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Thanks for the heads up. I guess I had assumed that if a reputable company offered a $800 ring it would be fine. James Allen offers a $1250 one. Problem is, I have no way of knowing if that one is better, or good enough, or whatever.

You get what you pay for. There are fine craftsmen that charge $3000 or so for a "plain" setting, and they have their books full for the next 6 months. There must be a reason...

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So I know I definitely can't rely on EGL for a diamond of this size. But are GIA and AGSL equivalent, or is one "stricter"? (from the point of view of having an SI1 be eye clean at 2.7 to 3 carats)

They are equally strict on colour and clarity. AGSL is much more selective on cut: GIA "Excellent" covers about 40-50% of recently cut diamonds; AGS-0 (Ideal) probably less than 10%. To get to the top 40-50%, you can go down to AGS 2.

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I guess it's a good thing I'm going for SI1, since it will make my diamond easier to spot. When you say "easily erased". are we talking any jeweler has the equipment in the back office, or does it take expensive equipment that only big labs have?

I thought laser engraving would be offered as a service but I haven't seen it listed on Blue Nile, Union Diamond or James Allen.

Erasing a girdle inscription will take about 10 seconds on a diamond polishing lathe. Not the sort of stuff that a jeweller has in the back office, but neither something difficult to find if you are in the business. And I suppose if one is really determined to do that, a diamond file or even a piece of rough will work pretty well - both can cost less than $50 and will fit in a pocket. Laser engravers are less common (and definitely less portable), but still not a problem.

I suppose the reason that laser engraving is not offered is that in general it is "bought" together with the report at the moment of grading the diamond.

[Locke]

First, thanks so much for all the great information. I think I'll re-read this thread a couple of times this weekend and let it sink in.



Re: "On the other hand, if you went down to below 3.00 - say 2.80-2.90, you'd save enough on the price/carat to be able to afford a nicely cut, eye-clean, I colour stone."

Thank you, that might be what I have to do keep the price from ballooning out of control.

On James Allen, I've tried searching for a 2.7 to 3.1 carat, round, I color, VS2 or SI1, premium or better cut, and the cheapest I see is a $34,000 stone, 2.81 carats SI1.

On ExcelDiamonds, searching for a 2.7 to 3.1 carat, round, I or J color, VS2 or SI1, very good or better cut: cheapest I see is a $40,000 stone, 3 carat, J, SI1. (There's a $30,000 stone, but it's EGL I, SI1, so...).

On Blue Nile there's a $26,000 2.7 carat execellent, and a $30,000 3 carat, but I would be purchasing sight unseen... Similar story for Union Diamond. And because the price is so much lower than James Allen and Excel diamonds, I now wonder what's wrong with those BN and UD stones.

How much does returning a diamond cost? (shipping, insurance)


Perhaps I should search again in a few days if new inventory comes in or prices change? Or are there other online places I should consult?

Or just get a 2.5 carat, J, SI1 stone and get it re-graded by EGL so it comes out as a G VS1 stone and show that certificate to my fiance.

[davidelevi]

Going over 25,000 is a bit of a problem, because USPS normally insures only up to $25000. However, some vendors insist that you use a courier and not insure the package, since it's covered by their insurance. USPS is about $50, and a courier will be a similar amount. Talk to your vendor about how they would organise the return.

There are a few stones that may fit the bill advertised on Brian Gavin's site. At this stage I would not necessarily discount SI2 stones - there are eye-clean ones, and you will need to see it anyway or ask the vendor's opinion about it. Or go down in size to around 2.5, which would make VS2 stones within reach.

I think you should switch strategy from trying to find the stone to finding the vendor first, and ask them to help you find the stone. Make a long(ish) list of vendors, call them and get down to one or two that you feel would be helpful and objective.

Getting the stone regraded may help with the fiancée, but it may cause headaches with the insurance - how do you explain to her that the G-VS1 is actually a J-SI1?

[barry]

I believe that US Post Office will insure up to 50K.

Locke; you're spinning your wheels and guesstimating. Let's remove your doubt and uncertainty, get you off the round-abouts you're on, and onto the Trans-Highway-fast lane.

Recommended steps:

1. Pick a Vendor that either has the diamonds in-house or can call them in from the Manufacturer and thereby provide you with their eyes on evaluation and detailed data work up.

2. Browse the range of 2.60-3.+ carats. Include SI-2 clarity in your search.

3. Consider EGL-USA; there may be accurate graded stones extant.

3. Request the Vendor provide you with 10X photo, Idealscope, and ASET photos, and most importantly a verbal description of the diamonds face up appearance and performance, i.e.; sparkle, dispersion, and contrast brilliance. We are a Vendor that provides these services.

4. Ask about the position, size, and coloration of the inclusion(s). Does the diamond face-up eye-clean (defined as from a viewing distance of 8-12 inches from your eye).

5. Seriously consider strong fluorescent diamonds.

To have the Vendor perform this work and data analysis will put you in a position to make an informed purchase decision.

Edited by barry, 26 August 2011 - 02:18 AM.

[davidelevi]

http://pe.usps.com/A...ve1209/S911.pdf section 2.3 says maximum value of insurance on registered post is $25,000 - though they will accept higher valued items (possibly up to 50,000) and charge a handling fee for it.

[barry]

They charge fees for everything and yet still manage to lose millions.

[Locke]

OK, thanks again for the new info. I think I'll be working through the weekend but will resume my search by making the vendors list next week as you recommended.

Fluorescence: I went up to medium in my search. I wouldn't mind strong, if I knew it would have no effect on how it looks to the naked eye. I need to read up more on that.

EGL vs GIA: considering the value of the stone, I would have to insist on a GIA or AGSL certificate. If not right away, then at some point before the deal closes. It's the only way to be sure, right?

Final note: I live in Canada, so that probably means an extra 15% on whatever I buy (plus duty, if any???) . So a $30k stone + $2k setting +15% tax brings me to $37 which is getting kinda high. That's why I'm at least trying to keep the stone's budget at or below $30k.

[Locke]

It's amazing how much the price can vary. Looking at the (admittedly low resolution) videos, these pieces look beautiful, for a much lower price:

$16,000 -- 3.14 carat (J colour, SI1, ex cut, EGL)
[url][url]http://www.markbroumand.com/product/314ct-Round-Brilliant-Cut-Diamond-Engagement-Anniversary-Ring__2175-1D18727334.aspx[/url][/url]

$20,000 -- 3.88 carat (OP colour, SI2, VG cut, GIA)
[url][url]http://www.markbroumand.com/product/488ct-Round-Brilliant-Cut-Diamond-Engagement-Anniversary-Ring__2480-1D18392730.aspx[/url][/url]

$31,000 -- 3.01 carat (I, SI2, VG cut, GIA)
[url][url]http://www.markbroumand.com/product/401ct-Round-Brilliant-Cut-Diamond-Engagement-Anniversary-Ring__2524-1D28691430.aspx[/url][/url]

I wonder how good these would look in person to a layman though.

Edited by Locke, 26 August 2011 - 03:26 AM.

[denverappraiser]

I would NOT recommend seriously considering EGL-USA stones, especially in a sight unseen international deal and especially not at this price point. If it's accurately graded, and the dealer knows it's accurately graded, let them improve the pedigree themselves. It's not that hard and the payoff is considerable. The ALL know this. There's a reason it's being sold with EGL paperwork, and it's not because they're trying to do favors for shoppers.

[davidelevi]

Locke, on 26 August 2011 - 02:29 AM, said:

OK, thanks again for the new info. I think I'll be working through the weekend but will resume my search by making the vendors list next week as you recommended.

Fluorescence: I went up to medium in my search. I wouldn't mind strong, if I knew it would have no effect on how it looks to the naked eye. I need to read up more on that.

Reasonable starting point for that: http://www.diamondre...e-fluorescence/
Note the link to the GIA 1997 paper in that thread (post #5).

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EGL vs GIA: considering the value of the stone, I would have to insist on a GIA or AGSL certificate. If not right away, then at some point before the deal closes. It's the only way to be sure, right?

To have an independent opinion, you can also contract your own appraiser. Or you can trust the vendor. There is nothing wrong with an EGL-graded diamond (as opposed to an EGL grade), as long as you know what you are buying.

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Final note: I live in Canada, so that probably means an extra 15% on whatever I buy (plus duty, if any???) . So a $30k stone + $2k setting +15% tax brings me to $37 which is getting kinda high. That's why I'm at least trying to keep the stone's budget at or below $30k.

I think duty is not payable on US jewellery items, but don't know for sure. On the other hand, a trip to a US city not in the vendor's state can be organised for less than 5k. Not that I condone or encourage tax evasion in most circumstances...

Locke, on 26 August 2011 - 03:25 AM, said:

It's amazing how much the price can vary. Looking at the (admittedly low resolution) videos, these pieces look beautiful, for a much lower price:

$16,000 -- 3.14 carat (J colour, SI1, ex cut, EGL)
http://www.markbroum...1D18727334.aspx

They don't vary that much, actually, in the sense that if you look at O-P/Q-R/S-T graded stones they are less than half the price of an I-J. If you like that colour (I do, BTW), go for it, but it will be noticeably yellow in many environments.

This is a perfect example of the "problem" with EGL. It's graded J but it shows more yellow than the GIA O-P. Actually, the problem is not with the stone, but with the vendor who does not explain that it is not "J" by any objective standard, including his own photos and videos, but instead uses exactly the same words to describe GIA and EGL and calls a light yellow stone "near colourless". Some of it may be the setting, but a lot (looking through the side) is difference in the stone itself. I'd say that's an S-T based on the video comparison with a correctly graded O-P. It's also not particularly well cut (again, based on the MB video/photos).

I don't think this is eye-clean, either - the inclusion at any rate is clearly visible through the side, and the setting does nothing to hide it.

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$20,000 -- 3.88 carat (OP colour, SI2, VG cut, GIA)
http://www.markbroum...1D18392730.aspx

Beautiful. I mean, the model's hands. The diamond seems to be better cut and cleaner than the EGL, although the setting does a lot to hide things away (and is the main reason for the price hike).

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$31,000 -- 3.01 carat (I, SI2, VG cut, GIA)
http://www.markbroum...1D28691430.aspx

I preferred the pearly nail polish; I find the red distracting when assessing colour. Still, nice hands. Unsurprisingly this is the whitest of the lot, and it seems reasonably cut. The setting is - hem - not to everybody's taste, but there's a lot of stuff in it. Again, judging eye-cleanness is difficult, but it may be because it is clean.

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I wonder how good these would look in person to a layman though.

To an educated layman, I think as I said above, except perhaps for my guess as to how GIA would grade that "J".

[Locke]

Update: So I picked two local jewelers, since this seems the only way the I could see the stones myself before making a decision.

One guy has brought in a 3.02 carat, VS2, K colour, ideal cut... but rated from GemScan (I'm in Canada) Price: $30,000
This is in Toronto, so my girlfriend will have to look at it alone tonight since I'm in a different city.

This Saturday, the other jeweler will bring in:
- 3.02 carat, H colour, SI2, ideal cut. EGL graded, $25,000
- 2.51 carat, F colour, SI1, ideal cut. EGL graded, $25,000

Problem is, I looked at the GIA website, and it seems it would take a month minimum to get their opinion (at least from the North America labs). This is a little too long for my needs.
(Turn around: [url]http://www.gia.edu/lab-reports-services/turnaround-time/index.html[/url] )

I'm considering taking a risk and simply assuming that GemScan is within 1 or 2 colour/clarity levels from GIA, and EGL is within 2 or 3 levels from GIA.

Is GemScan at least somewhat reliable? Is it better than EGL? Any other thoughts or ideas?

Edited by Locke, 15 September 2011 - 03:26 PM.

[davidelevi]

You can get GIA to turn around the stone "same day" (in by 10 am, out by 4 pm) for twice the fees, so between $150 and $220 extra for the stone size you are considering.

Your assumption is plain wrong. You found yourself a couple of weeks ago a diamond graded J by EGL that was more yellow than an O-P; see posts #13 and #15 in this thread. That's at least 6 (or possibly 8 or 10) grades off. Never mind clarity, where the jump from SI to I means at least 30 if not 50% drop in price. Are you willing to take that risk?

GemScan: I haven't seen many stones graded by them, since they tend to be focused on the Canadian domestic market. I have heard good and bad, so I can't draw a conclusion. The thing that worries me is I am not at all familiar with their cut grading scale, and I cannot find (quickly) any explanation of how it works.

Pardon my bluntness, but I don't understand your strategy. You insist on dragging out EGL or other questionable lab graded stones from vendors that are unwilling (at least as far as we know) to assign their own grades, but who know (considering how they price them) that the lab grade is not reliable. You - rightly - don't trust the EGL grade either, so you want to get the stone regraded by GIA, knowing full well that it's going to end up in a very different place from where it started.

Isn't it easier to start from GIA graded stones, accepting that your initial goal of 3.00/I/SI1/Excellent is not achievable with a budget of $25-30k? At the moment, you are going all over the place driven mainly by size and budget, and creating a need to see the stone in person rather than trusting the lab and choosing a reliable, helpful vendor to do his/her best.

In all of this, you lose sight of cut, which is the most important variable in how good the diamond will look, and is the least comparable across labs.

Edited by davidelevi, 15 September 2011 - 10:21 PM.

[davidelevi]

FWIW - this is something I found while looking at prices for comparables to the EGL stones you posted about latest.

http://www.solomonbr...E=DiamondReview

It fits most of your criteria other than being an SI2, but the inclusions are twinning wisps which are generally quite benign. It seems to be cut in a way that appeals most to me - high crown and smallish table. If the vendor can take photos, I think it may be worth taking a look at.

[Locke]

davidelevi, on 15 September 2011 - 10:19 PM, said:

You can get GIA to turn around the stone "same day" (in by 10 am, out by 4 pm) for twice the fees, so between $150 and $220 extra for the stone size you are considering....Pardon my bluntness, but I don't understand your strategy. You insist on dragging out EGL or other questionable lab graded stones from vendors that are unwilling (at least as far as we know) to assign their own grades, but who know (considering how they price them) that the lab grade is not reliable. You - rightly - don't trust the EGL grade either, so you want to get the stone regraded by GIA, knowing full well that it's going to end up in a very different place from where it started.Isn't it easier to start from GIA graded stones, accepting that your initial goal of 3.00/I/SI1/Excellent is not achievable with a budget of $25-30k? At the moment, you are going all over the place driven mainly by size and budget, and creating a need to see the stone in person rather than trusting the lab and choosing a reliable, helpful vendor to do his/her best.

First, thank you very much for the "quick GIA turnaround info", I didn't know this, and it's very helpful!

As far as strategy: I did follow the advice on this board -- "pick a jeweler you like, ask for GIA stones". I told them what to look for, and asked for GIA. Both jewelers came back with offers to show me stones that were not GIA, but that "looked beautiful".

Since this is not an investment, my goals are (1) Satisfy my girl's desire for a 3c stone (2) have the stone look nice to her; and (3) stay in my budget; (4) not get a fake/fragile/problematic diamond.

She saw the stone in person yesterday, and said that to her eyes: it looks very beautiful, very sparkly, warm but not yellow, no visible problems to the naked eye, only one thing on the edge visible with a loupe, and the guy showed her "hearts and arrows patterns"

So, this is my reasoning at this point: I could buy this stone, but I only need a GIA cert to tell me (1) it's not fake, clarity enhanced, etc. and (2) maybe to get the guy to improve the price if it comes in at a very different grade.

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[davidelevi]

If that's the case, you don't need a GIA report. Identification provided by the merchant and GemScan is enough to establish it's not a fake or synthetic diamond (and give you recourse against the merchant should this not be the case), and you are very unlikely to be able to bargain considering that the diamond is relatively heavily "discounted" compared to a GIA K/VS2, and somewhere around a L-M/SI1. You may get the merchant to take it back, but a discount I think would be difficult.

If you like it - and more importantly if she likes it - then go ahead.

Our encouragement to use GIA has nothing to do with considering the diamond as an "investment", and GIA graded diamonds make neither better nor worse investments than EGL graded ones, assuming the same "true" colour, clarity, cut and size. The issue is whether you are paying a fair price, and in this case you are basically ready to trust the dealer.

Incidentally - it matters little, but I doubt that with those crown and pavilion angle what you (or your GF) saw would be called "H&A".