19 replies to this topic

[ragging bull]

I have a 3 cts Old European. GIA certified loose diamond: Color-Q-R range,Clarity-SI1, Polish-Good,Symmetry-Good, Fluorescence-None.What should I expect to get for this stone ? Old World Diamonds in NYC has a stone on its web that is a M color and VS2 selling for $25,000.00. I would be very happy with half that amount.Is that unrealistic?

[LaurieH]

It really just depends on who is buying it. A retailer who will be looking to resell it will try to pay a lot less than someone buying it for themselves (or their own purpose, anyway). Old Europeans are going to be harder to price out because they're not as commonly seen anymore, and especially the size that you've got. I would say speak to a number of jewelers who specialize in vintage jewelry, because they're likely to have dealt with that cut and maybe that size. Also, have your diamond appraised by an independent appraiser who is experienced with non-modern cut diamonds. You can try the NAJA website for someone in your area, and then ask if that's something they're equipped to handle (najaappraisers.org).

Beyond that, I would say since you mentioned that the diamond is GIA certed, I'd see about scanning in the cert for folks on here to have a look at, in case any of them are interested.

Thanks for coming by and good luck!

[ragging bull]

LaurieH, on 24 June 2011 - 02:26 PM, said:

It really just depends on who is buying it. A retailer who will be looking to resell it will try to pay a lot less than someone buying it for themselves (or their own purpose, anyway). Old Europeans are going to be harder to price out because they're not as commonly seen anymore, and especially the size that you've got. I would say speak to a number of jewelers who specialize in vintage jewelry, because they're likely to have dealt with that cut and maybe that size. Also, have your diamond appraised by an independent appraiser who is experienced with non-modern cut diamonds. You can try the NAJA website for someone in your area, and then ask if that's something they're equipped to handle (najaappraisers.org).

Beyond that, I would say since you mentioned that the diamond is GIA certed, I'd see about scanning in the cert for folks on here to have a look at, in case any of them are interested.

Thanks for coming by and good luck!

[ragging bull]

Why should I get an appraisle when I have a GIA cert.?It seems to me that most diamond dealers ask for GIA certs. and they mostly disregard appraisels.

[LaurieH]

The appraisal is not to establish what it is--you've got your cert for that. Just bring it with you to the appraiser to just match it up--verification never hurts! But the bigger point of the appraisal is to establish a baseline value for you. If you have an appraisal, you'll have a better idea of what to ask for the diamond. Otherwise, you're just guessing--and you could guess very much to your buyer's favor. If the diamond would command a price in the 15000 ballpark, and you're only asking 12, well...that's 3k you just gypped yourself out of, so to speak, for want to not bother and spend the 80-120$.

Not to mention, UNTIL you sell it, it'd be a really good idea to have it insured. And whoever buys it, is going to want to insure it, too, so maybe also ask your appraiser if they'd be willing to--within a reasonable amount of time, say 1-3 months of the appraisal--transfer the appraisal to the buyers name at no or nominal charge. Or let your appraiser know that you're interested in getting an appraisal for the point of resale, as opposed to retail replacement cost, since you're not planning to keep it. Those numbers can be quite different. But either way, like I said, the main point is to establish a value for the diamond so you know where to start for an asking price.

[ragging bull]

LaurieH, on 25 June 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:

The appraisal is not to establish what it is--you've got your cert for that. Just bring it with you to the appraiser to just match it up--verification never hurts! But the bigger point of the appraisal is to establish a baseline value for you. If you have an appraisal, you'll have a better idea of what to ask for the diamond. Otherwise, you're just guessing--and you could guess very much to your buyer's favor. If the diamond would command a price in the 15000 ballpark, and you're only asking 12, well...that's 3k you just gypped yourself out of, so to speak, for want to not bother and spend the 80-120$.

Not to mention, UNTIL you sell it, it'd be a really good idea to have it insured. And whoever buys it, is going to want to insure it, too, so maybe also ask your appraiser if they'd be willing to--within a reasonable amount of time, say 1-3 months of the appraisal--transfer the appraisal to the buyers name at no or nominal charge. Or let your appraiser know that you're interested in getting an appraisal for the point of resale, as opposed to retail replacement cost, since you're not planning to keep it. Those numbers can be quite different. But either way, like I said, the main point is to establish a value for the diamond so you know where to start for an asking price.

[ragging bull]

I have an appraisal dating back to 1995 and it is a different: carat weight 3.35, color L-M and clarity SI1 @ $18,000.00. So which do you think is more valued the GIA or the jewelry store appraiser?The GIA cert. was done in April 2011.I paid $217.00 for it.Whats going on with the appraisals shoudn`t they agree on carat weight and color?

[LaurieH]

Again, it's not a matter of the appraisal for establishing what the diamond IS, but what its current market value is. If it valued at 18k in 1995, you happy to say that it's worth the same 16 years later? Because if that's the case, if you have any gold you bought in 1995, I'd love to buy it from you at that years' market price. That you had GIA evaluate the diamond for what it IS this year just helps verify what it is. GIA does not give you a valuation. AND if the appraisal you have from '95 gives different information about the diamond than the certification that you have now, then you absolutely need a new appraisal with the more accurate information.

[ragging bull]

I wish the diamond market was compatible to the gold market but it is not!! The diamond market is an artificial market controlled by one giant company Debeers. Diamonds are not rare !Gold is much more collectable.That being said if Debeers decided to release half their diamonds to the market diamond prices will fall drastically.Appraisals are subject to interpretation, as shown by the difference in the two appraisals so in my mind they are not worth spending the money on!!They are only good for insurance purposes.

[davidelevi]

You are right, it's not comparable. Gold is a commodity, traded on mercantile exchanges, diamonds are not. However, some points on your post deserve a comment.

1. DeBeers no longer controls the diamond market. The DeBeers monopoly started breaking up in the 1980s when Russian-mined diamonds entered the market, and currently they have about 40% of the market in rough diamonds. However, I agree with you that it is a deeply distorted and inefficient market (in the economics sense of the term).

2. "Diamonds are not rare" - well, that depends on your definition of rare. Gold is mined in the hundreds or even thousands of tonnes per year. Natural diamonds are produced to the tune of a few tens of tonnes in the "best" years. Of these, only a small percentage (about 1%) is of gem quality. It is however true that compared to other gemstones, diamonds are relatively common.

3. Gold is not collectable (or at least not as such - gold artefacts may be, but their collectable value is generally in the making, not the gold). Gold is much more liquid than diamonds, and has much lower transaction costs.

4. If DeBeers released significant stocks of diamonds, the price would fall. Which is precisely why they have never done so...

5. You have one appraisal, we don't know done by whom, possibly on a stone that at the time was set in a ring (as indicated by the colour grade of L-M). If that was the case, the appraiser would have had to estimate the weight, and a 10% error in that case is reasonable. You also have a recent GIA report, which says something different on weight and colour.

I don't think you should conclude that appraisals or grading reports are "subject to interpretation" meaning unreliable. These are two different documents, with different purposes, done at different times by different people on an item that may well be in a different condition (set, re-cut, ...).

6. If you want to sell the diamond you need to know WHAT it is - which the GIA report provides to anybody's satisfaction. You also need to know what is a reasonable VALUE for it; a 15 year old appraisal won't do it, and finding comparables online is difficult. At this point, you have two option: trusting the buyer to place a value that you find acceptable, or getting some expertise on your side. I know what I would do.

[LaurieH]

Yes, diamonds don't change in value the way the gold market does. It was more to the point that in 15-16 years, things COULD change drastically, pricewise, and wouldn't you want to take the most advantage of that. And while diamonds aren't "rare", a diamond that size kinda is. Most diamonds are well under a carat. Anyway, unless the questions change, I think this is probably the last I have to say on the matter. Good luck.

[ragging bull]

So you still didn`t address the real issue . One appraiser has a carat wt. of 3.35 color L-M and GIA has Carat wt. 3.07 and a substantial difference in color Q-R . Why? We are talking thousands of dollars of value .Please explain the difference in color.The stone didn`t change did it?

[davidelevi]

We (and possibly you) know next to nothing about the "appraisal". Even the best appraiser will have to make guesses if handed a stone set in a ring, which would explain both the colour and weight differences.

Do you know who appraised the item? What does their description of the item read in full? Was the diamond set in a ring?

Secondly, we don't know if the stone has been recut or repolished between appraisal and GIA grading. Perfectly possible, particularly with older diamonds.

As you say, the difference is worth thousands of dollars, which is precisely why we are advising you to disregard the first appraisal:

1. It's out of date as regards to values anyway, being 16 years old.
2. The diamond (possibly including a ring) was probably valued for its replacement value at retail prices, not for sale to a dealer or to another private individual
3. There are doubts about the appraiser's conclusions on objective attributes such as colour and weight.

[ragging bull]

The ring was appraised when the diamond was not mounted by a certified gemologist working for a very reputable Jewelry store in town.She had her papers to prove she completed the course for the cert.You state that 10% off in size and color is acceptable maybe for you and the weather men it is but when you are talking thousands of dollars it is not acceptable.I paid the GIA $ 217.00 and I also paid the appraiser and now I am more confused then before. I am not willing to thow more money out the window on another so called "experts" opinion!!

[denverappraiser]

ragging bull, on 25 June 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:

Why should I get an appraisle when I have a GIA cert.?It seems to me that most diamond dealers ask for GIA certs. and they mostly disregard appraisels.

The purpose of a resale appraisal is to provide you with documentation of what you have and to attach market research and advice on how it may be expected to fit into the marketplace you've chosen. Given the recent GIA, I agree that you're not looking for the description component (and, by the way, that was a wise choice to send it in to GIA). It's not clear to me whether or not you need or want advice about the marketplace choices. I absolutely agree, an appraisal is NOT an advertisement and they don't work well for that objective, especially if you're selling to to a dealer. On the other hand, you're proposed alternative pricing strategy of asking strangers on an Internet forum or by a survey of asking prices for completely different stones in a completely different marketplace may not be the best solutions either.

My suggestion? Yes, you would probably benefit from a competent appraisal given your situation. No, it's not guaranteed, and it' s not at all clear to me if you've already done this. As you recognize, there are thousands of dollars on the table ans SOME 'so called experts' actually do provide valuable council. If you've already chosen an appraiser, already had your inspection session and discussed it, and are more confused than you were before, call her up and talk to her about it. It's part of what you paid her for.

[denverappraiser]

ragging bull, on 25 June 2011 - 01:10 PM, said:

I have an appraisal dating back to 1995 and it is a different: carat weight 3.35, color L-M and clarity SI1 @ $18,000.00. So which do you think is more valued the GIA or the jewelry store appraiser?The GIA cert. was done in April 2011.I paid $217.00 for it.Whats going on with the appraisals shoudn`t they agree on carat weight and color?

As Davide said, the appraisal was almost certainly done on a mounted stone but it's nearly certain that the GIA from 2011 is 'correct'. It's possibly not the same stone and it's possible that the appraiser made an error. It's even possible (although unlikely) that GIA is in error. No, weight and color of diamonds do not change over time. If I had to choose I would advise any buyer to rely 100% on the GIA and ignore the appraisal entirely.

By the way, +/- 10% on the weight estimation and +/- 1 grade each on color and clarity is the standard taught by GIA in their coursework. Not all gemologists are especially good at it but that's the definiton of success set by GIA.

Edited by denverappraiser, 27 June 2011 - 01:06 PM.

[davidelevi]

ragging bull, on 27 June 2011 - 04:10 AM, said:

The ring was appraised when the diamond was not mounted by a certified gemologist working for a very reputable Jewelry store in town.She had her papers to prove she completed the course for the cert.You state that 10% off in size and color is acceptable maybe for you and the weather men it is but when you are talking thousands of dollars it is not acceptable.I paid the GIA $ 217.00 and I also paid the appraiser and now I am more confused then before. I am not willing to thow more money out the window on another so called "experts" opinion!!

1. I said that 10% off in size and L-M to Q-R in colour may be acceptable (or excusable) when the stone is mounted. In any case, you chose the expert - not I. The fact that she completed a course means very very little, unfortunately. And so does the fact that she is working at a "reputable store" (incidentally, as an appraiser that almost certainly counts against her).

2. You chose her 16 years ago, and we have no idea what she did. In any case, my points 1-3 in the post above remain valid.

3. I don't gain anything by having you get another appraisal, hopefully by a competent professional. As you say it's thousands of dollars at stake. If you wish, you can resubmit your stone to GIA, and if they made a mistake they will fix it for free (otherwise you will have to pay a nominal fee). It still doesn't solve your problem of knowing what's a reasonable price to ask for it.

4. I don't understand why you are peeved with me or anyone else on this forum. We are trying to help. If you chose an incompetent appraiser 16 years ago it's not our fault, nor is it GIA's fault that the appraiser had a different opinion. Out of the two opinions, I (and anyone else in the trade) will side with GIA, not with a 16 year old appraisal by an unknown person.

[ragging bull]

I am not angry with any on this forum. If I came across that way I do appologize. I am frustrated with the diamond resale market. I keep reading about the increase of diamonds on the wholesale level .I look online at the retail price of stones of the same carat weight ,color, cut and clarity with asking prices of $20,000-$25,000 and then I get an offer of $6,000-$7500.from some dealers that are supposed to be very reputable .That is to big a spread to justify .We can talk about overhead and cost of running a store and all that but if I could pay$ 7500.00 for an item and then sell it for $20,000-$25,000. I would be happy as a pig in you know what!!So in closing all I want is a Fare amount for my stone. I know I could never come close to replacing it for what they are offering! It just doesn`t make sense to sell the diamond and have that person turn around and get 2- 3 times what they paid for it.Its not like its a used car that looses value when you leave the showroom. Remember it is an Old European Cut stone in fact it is more like an antique and should be sold that way.I have one last question if the diamond market is so strong and the wholesale price of diamonds keep rising why is it that my stone and stones of the same quality are not rising on the resale market? Something fishy is going on here or maybe these dealers think I am stupid.

[denverappraiser]

I can't say much about the particular dealers that you've spoken with and they may be making lowball offers (or not) but I can give you some general answers about why it's the way it is and what you're missing.

1) Diamonds are a fashion business. What drives it is DEMAND, just like any other business. OEC's aren't particularly fashionable right now and low colors especially so. They're not particularly perishable and a dealer with deep pockets can afford to wait a bit but there is an inverse relationship between the length of time your buyer is expecting to hold the stone and the price they'll be willing to pay.

2) Asking $25000 is not the same as getting it. I know a lot of diamond dealers and I don't know ANY who could command that kind of prices and actually get them for goods like this.

3) The difference between an L and a Q is a BIG deal. You worked through this when you hired GIA (which was a good idean by the way) but you still seem to be struggling with it.

4) Dealers DO get paid although they aren't minting money as much as you seem to think. An interesting observation is that, in the Forbes 500 list of richest people, the only 'jewelers' present are Harry Oppenheimer, who is the CEO of a mining company, and Benny Steinmetz, who really is a NYC landlord who sidelines as a manufacturer. There's not a retailer in the bunch unless you count the folks behind Walmart. To be sure they sell jewelery but it's a bit of a stretch to call them jewelers. FWIW, none of these people would have anything to do with your deal because they can't make sufficient money. That's their problem, not yours, but it suggests that your characterization that this business is a bunch of money for nothing is perhaps flawed. In fact, MOST jewelers will refuse to get involved at all. There's some money to be made here, but it's not nearly as good a gig as you seem to think.

If you can wait, you may find yourself happier with a consignment sort of deal although these have their pifalls too. The margins are lower there although, again, you'll probably have a problem with speed because of the things mentioned above.

Edited by denverappraiser, 28 June 2011 - 04:10 AM.

[davidelevi]

Um. It's a complicated question. The price you pay and the price you get for a diamond are very different because of a number of factors; blatant profiteering is possibly one of them, but only possibly. The dealer offering you a cash price needs to take into account the following:

1. Resale price of the stone. Your estimate of $20-25k for retail may be a little high; there are modern round cut stones (which may be worth a little more or a little less, depending on how well yours is cut) of similar weight, colour and clarity on sale for $14-17k.

2. Demand for the stone and thus likely time to sell. A large, Q-R stone in an older cut style is a specialist item; not everyone will want to stock it because not everyone will have the clientèle for it - and this will reduce the dealer's willingness to pay a high price.

3. Need to pay cash immediately (if that's what you are looking for). Most dealers will have quit a bit of their stock on memo (meaning sale or return) or in any case, even if they are owning it, it's payable in quite a few days. Cash flow is a problem for most if not all diamond retailers, and anything that is paid upfront is valued considerably less.

4. No recourse or return terms - quite rightly, you as a consumer expect the professional to take on the risk of buying something in which they are the expert. That doesn't mean that the professionals are willing to take that risk (of no sale, of incorrect grading, of damage, ...) for free.

This in addition to the rest of costs and required margin on "normal" articles. Some dealers may assess the risks/additional costs as higher than others, and drive their offer lower as a consequence; some may also try it on, but I would say that offers of 50% retail are good, and 30-40% are reasonable.

Couple of suggestions:

1. Consider specialists in old cut and/or coloured diamonds. To give you a few names, Jewels by Erica Grace, SingleStone, Nelson Rarities and us - Diamonds by Lauren. I don't guarantee any or all of these will offer you more money, or even anything at all; I do guarantee that whatever offer comes is going to be fair taking into account the points I made above.

2. Consider offering the stone on consignment, rather than outright sale. Although it means you only see the money when the stone is sold, you then get the retail price less 10-30% commission to the dealer, agreed in advance. Erica Grace and Nelson offer consignment as an explicit option; others may consider it if you ask - beware that the business offering you to realise the highest price is not necessarily the one that will sell it at that price...