52 replies to this topic

[denverappraiser]

Competitively speaking, a 1.2x/G/VS2/GIA princess cut that the seller thinks is a fabulous cut is about $7000 plus shipping and tax.
http://www.diamondre...ice&qSortDesc=1

Resale on the one you’re selling is about $1500 per the discussion last week. .

The labor is likely to cost you a couple of hundred if you put the deal together yourself. It’s probably ‘free’ from them but you haven’t mentioned it.

The above means that , if all goes well, you could do the deal yourself by giving up your existing diamond and laying out about $5700 beyond. Forget what you paid, that’s a done deal. It's water under the bridge and it's NOT coming back. Forget what the ‘regular’ price is. That’s a fantasy.

They’re offering to do the deal for your diamond plus $6230. That strikes me as entirely reasonable given your preference for shopping at that particular store and the irritation of the resale marketplace but it’s simply not correct to see it as a fabulous bargain where you’re getting a stone that’s ‘worth’ $13,600 for only $6230 or even $12,240. It’s an ok deal and you're very likely to get what you're paying for. If it’s a stone that you love, take it. If not, move on. I guarantee that they’ll be able to come up with more stones to offer you if you want but at some point you just jump on one. You’re committed to the store, you’re happy with their grading system and their expertise, and apparently you love the stone they chose for you. What’s the holdup? You've been losing sleep over this for close to a month. Do it.

[MicheaShea]

I am still able to return the ring. I have 2 months time. Which is June 30th.

So I'm confused. I thought this here [url]http://m.bluenile.com/US/m/23318#diamonds_pid=LD02029017[/url] which is Gia states it's an "ideal" cut through blue Nile. This price is what I'm getting can you explain why this price versus Kays isn't comparable?

[denverappraiser]

That's an F/VVS2. You're looking at a G/VS2. Here, for example, is a G/VS2/GIA from Blue Nile for $6900. that one's pretty exensive even for an F/VV2 by the way.

http://www.bluenile....mond_LD01954006

BN uses the word 'ideal' rather loosely. It's them, not GIA who is calling it that. If you're considering buying from them and relying on it, talk to them about what they mean, exactly as we're advising you to do with Kays.

If you play with the diamond finder up above you'll find dozens of stones that you can use as comps if that's what you're looking for, inclulding quite a few from Blue Nile.

In the range of 1.20-1.25/G/VS2 princess cuts there are 180 stones in the database and the most expensive one here is $7500.

http://www.diamondre...ice&qSortDesc=1

Edited by denverappraiser, 08 June 2011 - 12:26 PM.

[davidelevi]

MicheaShea, on 08 June 2011 - 11:08 AM, said:

I am still able to return the ring. I have 2 months time. Which is June 30th.

So I'm confused. I thought this here http://m.bluenile.co..._pid=LD02029017 which is Gia states it's an "ideal" cut through blue Nile. This price is what I'm getting can you explain why this price versus Kays isn't comparable?

You keep comparing the wrong thing. You aren't buying "$12,000 of diamond" - you are buying a 1.20 G/VS2 princess cut, not a 1.20 F/VVS2. Exactly like you are not buying $20 of meat. You are buying half a pound of fillet steak - which happens to cost $20 at that particular butcher. If you want to know whether the butcher is offering a good deal, you cannot compare "$20 of meat"; you CAN compare the price you pay for half a pound of fillet steak.

On "Ideal" - GIA does not grade princesses for cut, and does not use the word "Ideal"; check the GIA report scan on the stone you linked http://img.bluenile....7.jpeg}&fmt=pdf, and you will not see a cut grade (you will find polish and symmetry - not the same) nor will you see the word "ideal". Blue Nile uses it; ask them not just what they mean but how they reach the conclusion, and do the same with Kays. Then, if you are convinced that those are valid criteria, follow their conclusion. Not otherwise.

[MicheaShea]

denverappraiser, on 08 June 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:

That's an F/VVS2. You're looking at a G/VS2. Here, for example, is a G/VS2/GIA from Blue Nile for $6900. that one's pretty exensive even for an F/VV2 by the way.

[url="http://www.bluenile.com/diamond_LD01954006"][url]http://www.bluenile....mond_LD01954006[/url][/url]

BN uses the word 'ideal' rather loosely. It's them, not GIA who is calling it that. If you're considering buying from them and relying on it, talk to them about what they mean, exactly as we're advising you to do with Kays.

If you play with the diamond finder up above you'll find dozens of stones that you can use as comps if that's what you're looking for, inclulding quite a few from Blue Nile.

In the range of 1.20-1.25/G/VS2 princess cuts there are 180 stones in the database and the most expensive one here is $7500.

[url="http://www.diamondreview.com/diamonds/?qShape=Prin&qCaratLo=1.2&qCaratHi=1.25&qColorLo=G&qColorHi=G&qClarityLo=6&qClarityHi=6&pg=&qSort=Price&qSortDesc=1"][url]http://www.diamondre...ice&qSortDesc=1[/url][/url]

The first diamond [url="http://www.bluenile.com/diamond_LD01954006"][url]http://www.bluenile....mond_LD01954006[/url][/url] is only a very good cut where is the one I am asking about is a Exl and Sym is also only a good where as the one I asking about is Exl so there not the same quality diamond really right?

As far as using the word ideal or Exl I am getting confused I thought you two has said that I would want ask for that quality of a ring-so I will have to go back and re read. Where does blue nile get ideal? Is is based on quality or just given to some of their diamonds.

I understand that looking in the diamond finder that they have nothing over 7,500-but not of those were for the Exl polish and Exl sym. Ideal cut. and so shouldn't that make a difference? I was at work so I wasn't able to copy and past the diamonds I was talking about in the price range as easily, now I am off and this is what I mean; [url="http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-search?pt=setform"][url]http://www.bluenile....arch?pt=setform[/url][/url]
I know the clarity and color is somewhat better but does this matter or make a difference?

[MicheaShea]

davidelevi, on 08 June 2011 - 02:24 PM, said:

MicheaShea, on 08 June 2011 - 11:08 AM, said:

I am still able to return the ring. I have 2 months time. Which is June 30th.

So I'm confused. I thought this here [url="http://m.bluenile.com/US/m/23318#diamonds_pid=LD02029017"][url]http://m.bluenile.co..._pid=LD02029017[/url][/url] which is Gia states it's an "ideal" cut through blue Nile. This price is what I'm getting can you explain why this price versus Kays isn't comparable?

You keep comparing the wrong thing. You aren't buying "$12,000 of diamond" - you are buying a 1.20 G/VS2 princess cut, not a 1.20 F/VVS2. Exactly like you are not buying $20 of meat. You are buying half a pound of fillet steak - which happens to cost $20 at that particular butcher. If you want to know whether the butcher is offering a good deal, you cannot compare "$20 of meat"; you CAN compare the price you pay for half a pound of fillet steak.

On "Ideal" - GIA does not grade princesses for cut, and does not use the word "Ideal"; check the GIA report scan on the stone you linked [url="http://img.bluenile.com/is/image/certs/?$cert2%7B:content:%7Damp;src=%7BGIALD02029017.jpeg%7D&fmt=pdf"][url]http://img.bluenile....7.jpeg}&fmt=pdf[/url][/url], and you will not see a cut grade (you will find polish and symmetry - not the same) nor will you see the word "ideal". Blue Nile uses it; ask them not just what they mean but how they reach the conclusion, and do the same with Kays. Then, if you are convinced that those are valid criteria, follow their conclusion. Not otherwise.

I know I am not buying a "12,000" ring. I am trying to see whats the best Kays will give me for "12,000" and see what your opinion was on it. So a ring with the specs above should cost around $7,000 at highest?? What exactly would you get for a 12,000 princess diamond? OK, so it seems like a lot of people use "Idea/Exl or whatever..." so that being said the one I liked or gave info above what a red box diamond. Not sure if that matters or not. I guess what it comes down to the above diamond (the one I like) is not worth the 12,000 correct? So Kays is still trying to make a huge amount?

[MicheaShea]

Also when I talked to Kays and Michaels (jewelry shops here) they mainly stated whatever I do, return the ring, upgrade with them, buy elsewhere that whatever I do, that I don't buy online. They said that its the easiest way to get in trouble. Because you may have to return the ring many times because you can't see the ring in person and therefore won't know for sure if it will fit into your band or what it will look like-thoughts on this or is it just a ploy?

The measurements of the diamond that is now in my diamond per GSI report that came with the diamond is

6.19X6.19X4.66MM Which they said barely fit into my settling.

Edited by MicheaShea, 08 June 2011 - 09:27 PM.

[MicheaShea]

davidelevi, on 08 June 2011 - 06:30 AM, said:

1. Their pricing is consistently nonsense. The most expensive "online" 1.2x GIA G/VS2 are around $8000, which means that you are getting your stone valued at around $1500, as you would anywhere else.

Repeat: I can value your stone $1,000,000 if you buy my super-duper diamond at $1,006,500.

2. I don't understand why you would "lose out" if you paid $11600 (less p/x) instead of getting your money back. If you let the return period expire, I'm sorry, but this was imprudent on your side. You need to be very clear with Kays that you are not "exchanging" - you are returning one stone. Money back, please. And then you are buying something else with that money where-ever you like, which may well be Kays.

3. GIA 1.2 VS2/Ex/Ex Ideal cut? GIA does not grade cut on princesses, and does not use the term "Ideal". How does Kays decide the cut is "ideal"? Based on exactly what parameters are they deciding (hint: table and depth are NOT sufficient)? Do they have any evidence (e.g. GemEx scans, idealscope/ASET images) to support their claim? What premium are they claiming for this?

If you like it, it's OK, but don't be confused by the Excellent Polish and Symmetry into thinking this is necessarily a better cut stone than a VG/VG. A GIA report simply does not contain enough information to evaluate cut on a non-round diamond. Don't pay a premium for a diamond unless you can understand what the premium is based on.

I was only able to respond to part of this, then forgot about it until rereading.

I see the most expensive diamonds are $8,000-but when I searched and got $10-13,000 I was putting ideal/exl cut from each online store so I guess that is what is throwing me off now. When I asked for them to find me a ring I specified I wanted to compare it next to ideal diamond but wouldn't mind getting an exl cut-and they have gotten everything in from a very good to what they called an ideal-the only one that has caught my eye is the red box one and they said it was ideal-so how do I find out if it really is an ideal, because if it is then wouldn't that mean that that diamond is closer to the 10-13K diamonds I saw online?

Again I still have two weeks and told the saleslady that I want a refund if I haven't seen what I like by this weekend. But again I am curious is an idea/exl grade diamond decided by eye? Who can tell or help me figure out if that diamond is a ideal or exl grade??

So when I asked what report I should ask a diamond to come from GIA and the AGS reports were what was recommended...with this info how do I know the cut?

[davidelevi]

Let me try one more time to differentiate fact from fiction. It's a very long post, but please read carefully, because these are all things that we have said on this thread alone more than once.

Facts on cut

Fact: Anyone is free to call their diamond "ideal cut" though it may be no better cut than a beer bottle. It is up to them to explain to you how they reach that conclusion, and it is up to you to decide if you are satisfied with that explanation.

Fact: Saying "ideal" or "excellent" is easy; doing so on a consistent, fact-based basis is more difficult, and linking that consistency to better looks in a convincing way is very hard.

Fact: There is NO GIA cut grade for princesses. None. Zippo. Zilch. Nada.

Fact: AGS provides a consistent cut grade for princesses - and the way they reach their conclusion about their process to award a cut grade as well as the standards for each grade are publicly available and are based on solid, scientifically conducted research.

Fact: The Blue Nile cut grade is not transparent. In umpteen calls to Blue Nile I have never been able to tease out of them exactly how they grade for cut the different shapes. However, I do know that they do not ever see the diamond, so I am not inclined to trust their cut grade, particularly since I have significant suspicion that commercial reasons are behind at least some of their cut grades: see below.

Fact: On "Signature Ideal" stones, the deal that the supplier has with BN is slightly different: the supplier provides more information (GCAL scan), reserves the stone for Blue Nile and charges a significant premium for that. These stones are well cut, but that does not mean that the rest are not.

Fact: The same applies to most other vendors, including Kays. You don't seem to have asked Kays how they reach their different cut grades, and the extent to which you can see (or they can point out) the differences, or if you have you haven't told us here.

Facts on price

Fact: Symmetry and polish are minor factors in pricing a diamond, and they do not influence the looks to the same extent that cut (proportions and angles) does. In fact, you'd be very hard pressed to find any differences in price or looks between something that is GIA-graded for symmetry and polish EX/EX and VG/VG (or AGS ID/ID and EX/EX) all else being equal.

Fact: Colour, clarity and size are the main factors in pricing a diamond. Cut comes next, but any comparison of non-round shapes based on cut is complicated by the fact that there is no common standard for evaluating it.

Fact: Whether you like it or not, a 1.20 G/VS2 and a 1.40 G/VS1 (the BN "Signature Ideal" stones) are priced significantly differently, even though to the naked eye they look the same. Purely on a weight basis, you should expect the 1.40 to be 20% more expensive. Add on another 10% or so for VS1 vs. VS2 and you go from $7500/8000 for a top cut stone to $10000/10500. The rest is premium for extra information, branding, service etc.

Fact: There are on the market AGS-ideal cut stones, 1.2x G/VS2 for about $8000. Here is one: http://www.briangavi...GS-104044774001 This is the only one that I can find on consumer sites at the moment, but it is priced at a modest premium (if any) compared to the most expensive GIA-graded stones of the same specifications as far as size, colour and clarity.

Fact: Here is another G/VS2 stone that the vendor is happy to call "ideal/excellent" cut - http://www.abazias.c...5872694&flag=dr priced at $5700. It's only 1.16, so adjust that for size to 1.25, and it comes up to $6600. Do I trust that cut grade? No, I don't, but neither do I trust Blue Nile's or Kay's - and based on the information available this is likely to be a well cut stone.

My opinions on a few points that you raise

Online vs. physical store: There is some truth, in that you would normally see online-sourced stones one-by-one through the post. Some vendors are equipped to take high quality video and photographs to get through a preliminary choice, and that helps, but it's not the same as seeing "in the flesh". At the same time, you have made exactly how many trips to Kays?

The story about the ring not fitting the stone (or your finger) is - pardon my French - pure taurine excrement. Your ring size preference is unambiguous, and any person with a ring sizer can take it. We know that a 6.19 x 6.19 stone just fits the setting, and we know that it fit the 0.98 that was there before, and that had a certain size (5.45 x 5.45?); anything in between will work.

The fitting of the ring and stone will depend on how skilful the bench jeweller and setter are, and Kay's or Michael's have no information on who their competitors use. Some of the people we employ also work (or worked) for high calibre jewellery stores such as Harry Winston, Cartier and VanCleef & Arpels, and we have macro-photographs of each and every piece we put up for sale to prove its quality to anyone who can be bothered to look. Can Michael's or Kay's claim the same? I don't think so - they use stock photos for their pieces, and chains usually hire bench and setters rather than using independent contractors. And have you ever met their bench? I didn't think so either, so for all you know it's the same chap at Jim's tank welding store.

We can keep slagging each other all day long, and no-one benefits, least of all you. Let's assume that retail jewellery firms that have been in business for a few years are proficient enough in doing this type of ordinary work that the customer is entitled to some peace of mind in that respect (it ain't always so, but that's a different story, and fortunately the horror tales are relatively few).

Are Kay's making an inordinate amount of profit? Not on this deal. They are offering you (round numbers) $6000 for your ring, in exchange for something they price $12500. You could get $1500 for your ring, and pay $8000 for the same stone in another store. Same deal. Where they made an inordinate amount of profit is on the first sale, and they count on increasing it by your inability to let go of that.

How do you evaluate a princess cut's cut quality? You have four choices:

1. Get a stone with an AGS report. Not GIA, not EGL, not someone else. AGS.
2. Get hold of extra information - GCAL/GemEX reports, ASET/Idealscope images, Sarin/OGI technical scans, good quality large photos and video. Then learn how to interpret the extra information, or ask a trusted expert to do it for you.
3. Rely on the vendor's reputation and skills to select a well cut stone.
4. Rely on your visual impressions and taste.

They are not mutually exclusive, and you could in fact use all 4. Relying only on #3 and #4 (which is what you are doing) implies a very high level of trust in the vendor.

Why are you stuck? In my view, you are stuck for two reasons. One is the inability to compare properly - you are disregarding information that is very relevant in pricing a diamond (colour and clarity - however invisible they may be to the unaided eye) and are putting too much trust in labels that are not meaningful (such as vendor X's willingness to call a diamond "ideal cut" with no other information than a GIA report). The other is the inability to let go of the psychological effect of the apparent loss on your "old" diamond. There is nothing anyone can do about the latter, and I hope the summary of facts above helps with the former.

I have a strong feeling that we are going around in circles, with you hoping to get some endorsement on what we (Neil and I) see as at best a so-so deal, and us refusing to compromise and tell you it is OK. Can you get better than what you are being offered? Almost certainly. Can you do so locally? It seems not. Can you do so avoiding the psychological (not financial - that's done and dusted) loss? Almost certainly not. Ultimately it comes down to what you prefer: buy a good-looking (but not exceptional) diamond locally at a high price, avoiding the psychological loss, or take a bit of a bruised ego and buy for the same cash outlay one of the best cut diamonds on the market.

Having now written the equivalent of War and Peace, I will no longer post here except for answering specific questions.

Edit: fixed typos and added formatting.

Edited by davidelevi, 09 June 2011 - 12:52 AM.

[denverappraiser]

Excellent post Davide.

MicheaShea,

I spent several decades working as a bench jeweler and as an employer of other bench jewelers. One of the questions that consistently amazed me was when the sales people would come back into the shop and ask what is the biggest stone that will fit into a particular ring. My answer was consistently 'what is the biggest stone you can sell?' Sure, some are easier to set than others, some will require more of a retrofit than others, and some require more talent on the part of the benchie but if you can sell a $250k diamond, I'll work it out. We'll do whatever is required. We'll make a new ring if necessary. Everything is possible. You're spending $12,000 on this project (your numbers, not mine)... whether the benchman needs $100 or $500 to put it together is just not the heart of the issue here.

Internet. As I've said before in this very thread, I'm a fan of supporting local businesses and I agree there are benefits to shopping with them. At the same time, most of the Internet shops are no more or less than a jeweler located in someone else's neighborhood who is expanding to try and reach a national or even global audience. Internet advertising is the way to do this. It's not evil, it's not evidence of a scam, and it doesn't make them good or bad any more than advertising in the yellow pages includes an endorsement by the phone company. Renting space at the mall doesn't include an endorsement by the mall either by the way, and it doesn't say anything about whether THEY are good or bad either. It means they pay their rent, nothing more.


I'm starting to get frustrated with you as well and, like Davide, I'm going to check out of this thread. You have been told by both of us that it's a decent but not fabulous competitive deal, and we've both explained the numbers in excruciating detail including specific examples of what we're talking about. You've seen the stone and like it. You are obviously a loyal customer for that particular store (although as I side note I'm still not clear why. The ONLY other transaction you've had with them doesn't seem to have gone all that well). You presumably trust the quality of work there and would PREFER to have work done by them. Great. What's left?

Edited by denverappraiser, 09 June 2011 - 07:00 AM.

[denverappraiser]

Davide,

Just a tidbit of info for you since you live in a substantially different market. Small town America doesn't have a lot of skilled benchmen and nearly everybody uses subcontractors for this kind of work. It's entirely possible that both these stores are using the same benchman. He/she may or may not work in or own one of the stores or even the tank welding shop but it's common for someone with the appropriate tools and skills to market themselves through every store in town. T'aint a scam and it says nothing at all about whether or not they're skilled at what they do.

[davidelevi]

Good point. Not only do I not live in the US, but the US I know is largely that of the big cities, from Boston to Los Angeles and the rest in the middle. Since MicheaShea lives in Alaska, it's clear that the infrastructure has to be different (distance and size of population). As you point out, the conclusion doesn't change; I wasn't trying to be disparaging - I was pointing out that nobody gains anything by doing so without evidence.

[MicheaShea]

I thank you for both for the input and I'll be returning the ring and will get my old back but to have the diamond kept loose until I figure out what I want.

I called Kays and said I wanted to return the diamond since they haven't found one I'm happy with. She stated the last hope of a diamond will be in today or Monday. It's a G, Exl polish & symm, 1.25, VVS2 "ideal cut" per whatever standard that is. Of course who knows what that is I'm to overwhelmed & tired of dealing with this to care anymore. I think I've decided to just forgo an upgrade until a later date. She sounds rather mad-guess I don't blame her.

If I can only get 1,500 for my ring and what I'm trying to get costs around 7-8000 I think I'm at a loss for their markup and tired of losing anymore.