Thanks for any help/input any one has.
So my husband has bought me my second upgrade (and I want this ring to be the last) but the problem is the more I have been reading on the internet about Kays and buying a diamond from a mall has me scared.
What or how do you know the value of a diamond? I mean I can see here from blue nile that I can get a better ring all around for about 8-10,000? [url="http://www.bluenile.com/build-your-own-diamond-ring?action=remove&forceStep=DIAMONDS_STEP#DIAMONDS_STEP%7CLD02005671"][url]http://www.bluenile....STEP|LD02005671[/url][/url]
My Leo stats are as follows;
Shape/cut: Leo Princess (this isn't helpful to me really-what does that mean other than its a square as far as value...does this mean anything? Would it be very good or signature ideal on the scale)
measurements: 6.19X6.19X4.66MM (does this mean the closer in numbers the better rather than 6.19X 6.21?)
weight: 1.46
color: near colorless H
Clarity: SI2 (my old leo was a Sl1 but the jeweler said that my stone is better because of the polish/symmetry)
Polish/symmetry: Excellent/Very good (how important is this versus good/good)
treatments: none
We bought this one for 14999 but got a "discount" of 20% then traded in of my "old" ring for 6099.99 so we paid this time 6439.98 or a total of about 12,000 for the above specs. So how much does the above ring really fetch for? I am confused by what my Kays jeweler said and what I am learning on here and at blue nile as far as what it really means or the "worth" of the diamond. My main concern is I want this to be my final ring but don't want to waste more money than I can salvage by returning the diamond (I had my own setting) and trying to resell my old .98 diamond on eBay/craiglist...ideas or thoughts to help me understand what my rings worth is? Does anything on the stats of my ring make my ring stand out? It has an inclusion in the middle that I can see (I have pretty good eyes) in natural light, but the jeweler said that's better than my last which was on the sides and more prone to breaking if hit numerous times (I have a bad tendency of hitting my diamond) I half believe my jeweler and half believe he is full of it.
I am sorry for the novel, I just don't want to try and sell my ring if I am only going to save a 1,000 or so dollars...just because of the pain it will be, but I want help understanding my my ring means.
0
Help/advice On My Upgraded Leo Diamond.
Started by MicheaShea, May 16 2011 08:21 PM
52 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 17 May 2011 - 02:20 AM
Too many moving parts at once, here! Let me try to dismantle the issue into a series of smaller questions:
1. Is $12500 a reasonable amount to pay for a 1.46 H/SI2 princess cut in a ring?
No. Plain and simple. Even assuming the stone is graded correctly (and it's not something like a J/I1, which is quite possible with a GSI report, more than halving its price), and assuming a good quality plain setting in platinum (or relatively elaborate/microset pave in gold) at $1500, for $11,000 you can get a top-of-the-line cut D/VS2 or E/VS1 in the same size. An H/SI2 (which incidentally is not truly eye clean if you can see the inclusion without a loupe) should go for about half that amount.
2. Is a ring with a 0.98 H/SI1 GSI-graded Leo princess cut (I assume this is what it is; you aren't telling us explicitly!) worth $6099 on eBay or Craigslist?
Again, no. The centre stone would be sold (competitive retail) for $3000 at most, and the setting we are assuming is $1500, so the most a retailer would charge is $4500. Selling on eBay or other online auction sites the most you should assume to get - with all appropriate paperwork (which you don't have), a fair amount of patience and selling skills - is about 70% of that, so about $3300 maximum. Depending on the details of what your diamond is (cut quality, finish, fluorescence, etc.), the centre stone may only be a $1600 stone, and you may not be all that lucky at selling, so you may only see about $1500 back. And even that is not guaranteed.
3. Taking the worst case (i.e. $1500 for your old ring), can you still get a good upgrade by putting in $6500?
Yes. A well cut princess G-H/VS2 of between 1.25 and 1.45 carat is within reach. It is also possible that the vendor may agree to take your old ring in part exchange, but before you bring that into the equation make sure that the price on the other stone/ring is fixed!!!
4. Your other questions:
a. Quality of Leo cut: variable. There's good ones and there's bad ones. Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing what the one you are looking at is without seeing it.
b. Square vs. off-square: generally speaking, ratios of length/width up to about 1.05 will be seen by the eye as square. Some people like the idea of a perfectly square stone, and they tend to be priced slightly higher for that reason.
c. Polish and symmetry: the higher the better, but to see the difference between Good and Very Good you'll need a loupe.
d. Inclusions to the side vs. in the middle: perhaps your jeweller has a point - but he sounds to me as if he's full of inclusions himself. Unless the inclusion "to the side" is right next to the girdle, it's very unlikely to cause any trouble, and it is invisible; should worse come to worst, you have insurance. The inclusion "in the middle" is visible day in day out, and it's not something your insurance company can take care of.
5. What should you do?
If you are not upset by the paper loss on your trade in (from $6100 to $1500 or perhaps a little more), I'd definitely return the Leo ring and start looking for a better quality unbranded stone from a good retailer, online or otherwise. If psychologically the drop is hard to manage, I'd still return the Leo ring and try to find a better stone at the dealer who is being deceptively "generous" with his part exchange figures. I'm far from convinced that what he is selling you is a good stone, never mind up there with the best.
1. Is $12500 a reasonable amount to pay for a 1.46 H/SI2 princess cut in a ring?
No. Plain and simple. Even assuming the stone is graded correctly (and it's not something like a J/I1, which is quite possible with a GSI report, more than halving its price), and assuming a good quality plain setting in platinum (or relatively elaborate/microset pave in gold) at $1500, for $11,000 you can get a top-of-the-line cut D/VS2 or E/VS1 in the same size. An H/SI2 (which incidentally is not truly eye clean if you can see the inclusion without a loupe) should go for about half that amount.
2. Is a ring with a 0.98 H/SI1 GSI-graded Leo princess cut (I assume this is what it is; you aren't telling us explicitly!) worth $6099 on eBay or Craigslist?
Again, no. The centre stone would be sold (competitive retail) for $3000 at most, and the setting we are assuming is $1500, so the most a retailer would charge is $4500. Selling on eBay or other online auction sites the most you should assume to get - with all appropriate paperwork (which you don't have), a fair amount of patience and selling skills - is about 70% of that, so about $3300 maximum. Depending on the details of what your diamond is (cut quality, finish, fluorescence, etc.), the centre stone may only be a $1600 stone, and you may not be all that lucky at selling, so you may only see about $1500 back. And even that is not guaranteed.
3. Taking the worst case (i.e. $1500 for your old ring), can you still get a good upgrade by putting in $6500?
Yes. A well cut princess G-H/VS2 of between 1.25 and 1.45 carat is within reach. It is also possible that the vendor may agree to take your old ring in part exchange, but before you bring that into the equation make sure that the price on the other stone/ring is fixed!!!
4. Your other questions:
a. Quality of Leo cut: variable. There's good ones and there's bad ones. Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing what the one you are looking at is without seeing it.
b. Square vs. off-square: generally speaking, ratios of length/width up to about 1.05 will be seen by the eye as square. Some people like the idea of a perfectly square stone, and they tend to be priced slightly higher for that reason.
c. Polish and symmetry: the higher the better, but to see the difference between Good and Very Good you'll need a loupe.
d. Inclusions to the side vs. in the middle: perhaps your jeweller has a point - but he sounds to me as if he's full of inclusions himself. Unless the inclusion "to the side" is right next to the girdle, it's very unlikely to cause any trouble, and it is invisible; should worse come to worst, you have insurance. The inclusion "in the middle" is visible day in day out, and it's not something your insurance company can take care of.
5. What should you do?
If you are not upset by the paper loss on your trade in (from $6100 to $1500 or perhaps a little more), I'd definitely return the Leo ring and start looking for a better quality unbranded stone from a good retailer, online or otherwise. If psychologically the drop is hard to manage, I'd still return the Leo ring and try to find a better stone at the dealer who is being deceptively "generous" with his part exchange figures. I'm far from convinced that what he is selling you is a good stone, never mind up there with the best.
Edited by davidelevi, 17 May 2011 - 02:21 AM.
Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com
Diamonds by Lauren (http://diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com
#3
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Opal
Posted 17 May 2011 - 06:45 AM
I noticed so many people talking about Leo. so let me post my experience as well. I actually have ever purchased Leo which I ended up return those. I said those because it was more than one. I was inexperienced and had no clue about diamond. I went to a store in one of the mall nearby, they showed me Leo. That's about it, they did not show me the leo from magnification to see the inclusions or diamond challenge to see the cut. But anyway, we were impressed with the sparkle. I kept thinking about it and we finally went back and purchased it. Later I found out that other places (same store) can offer me cheaper price for Leo by about $300. $300 cheaper for higher clarity diamond. and this lady was very nice explaining to me all about diamond. So I decided to return the first one and went to other store. I brought it home. and in the mean time I went to this review and learned about diamond from basic level. The more I learned about it, the more I know for sure that Leo does not fit me. For me diamond is like an investment which I can sell with worth value in the future. I would like to get a reputable certification like GIA or AGS. Leo has IGI or GSI. I also would like an ideal cut. I compared Leo cut and ideal cut, very different cut. Some people maybe like Leo cut but not for me. I learned that it is the cut that determined most of the sparkling although there are some other factors that play important role as well. The lady in the store was extremely nice and I would say "honest". She said that Leo cut is different. if you compare it to ideal cut it is like comparing apple to orange. Leo is lower in price with similar sparkle compared to ideal cut. what she meant is the ideal cut that they have in the store which is another branded diamond. In reality, if you shop online or go to other non-branded jewelry store, you can get an ideal cut with cheaper or same price than you paid for Leo. So again I returned my second Leo. I felt bad little bit cuz the lady was very very nice and taught me and shown me so many things about diamond. It was also the lady that taught me and gave me the knowledge to find out that Leo is actually not worthy to buy if you want a real good diamond. but again I paid so much money and needed to get what I love and want. I personally rather pay more money than what i paid for Leo in order to get a worth value diamond. I read other posts that their leo diamonds only worth 1/2 of the price that they paid for. that makes a lot of sense. I'm still deciding what to buy, but i know for sure that i will not buy leo as i dont care about brand but i do care about quality. At least for me as everyone is different.
#4
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Platinum
Posted 17 May 2011 - 08:16 AM
Thanks for advice. Sorry I had so much questions scattered. Makes sense but hard to digest that we made a mistake. So we just bought the upgrade, so it can be returned and I can get my old .98 Leo. I don't have all those stats meomorized, but think it was a SI1, H and. Who actually buys these, if I'm going to sell or where...craiglist/eBay? How do you even sell one? So the "6,000" my husband was going to put towards the Leo (upgraded ring) and hopefully whatever I can make off this old Leo I can put towards a "better" diamond. I just hope I get more and $1500.
I really like blue niles site-opinions on them?
I really like blue niles site-opinions on them?
davidelevi, on 17 May 2011 - 02:20 AM, said:
Too many moving parts at once, here! Let me try to dismantle the issue into a series of smaller questions:
1. Is $12500 a reasonable amount to pay for a 1.46 H/SI2 princess cut in a ring?
No. Plain and simple. Even assuming the stone is graded correctly (and it's not something like a J/I1, which is quite possible with a GSI report, more than halving its price), and assuming a good quality plain setting in platinum (or relatively elaborate/microset pave in gold) at $1500, for $11,000 you can get a top-of-the-line cut D/VS2 or E/VS1 in the same size. An H/SI2 (which incidentally is not truly eye clean if you can see the inclusion without a loupe) should go for about half that amount.
2. Is a ring with a 0.98 H/SI1 GSI-graded Leo princess cut (I assume this is what it is; you aren't telling us explicitly!) worth $6099 on eBay or Craigslist?
Again, no. The centre stone would be sold (competitive retail) for $3000 at most, and the setting we are assuming is $1500, so the most a retailer would charge is $4500. Selling on eBay or other online auction sites the most you should assume to get - with all appropriate paperwork (which you don't have), a fair amount of patience and selling skills - is about 70% of that, so about $3300 maximum. Depending on the details of what your diamond is (cut quality, finish, fluorescence, etc.), the centre stone may only be a $1600 stone, and you may not be all that lucky at selling, so you may only see about $1500 back. And even that is not guaranteed.
3. Taking the worst case (i.e. $1500 for your old ring), can you still get a good upgrade by putting in $6500?
Yes. A well cut princess G-H/VS2 of between 1.25 and 1.45 carat is within reach. It is also possible that the vendor may agree to take your old ring in part exchange, but before you bring that into the equation make sure that the price on the other stone/ring is fixed!!!
4. Your other questions:
a. Quality of Leo cut: variable. There's good ones and there's bad ones. Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing what the one you are looking at is without seeing it.
b. Square vs. off-square: generally speaking, ratios of length/width up to about 1.05 will be seen by the eye as square. Some people like the idea of a perfectly square stone, and they tend to be priced slightly higher for that reason.
c. Polish and symmetry: the higher the better, but to see the difference between Good and Very Good you'll need a loupe.
d. Inclusions to the side vs. in the middle: perhaps your jeweller has a point - but he sounds to me as if he's full of inclusions himself. Unless the inclusion "to the side" is right next to the girdle, it's very unlikely to cause any trouble, and it is invisible; should worse come to worst, you have insurance. The inclusion "in the middle" is visible day in day out, and it's not something your insurance company can take care of.
5. What should you do?
If you are not upset by the paper loss on your trade in (from $6100 to $1500 or perhaps a little more), I'd definitely return the Leo ring and start looking for a better quality unbranded stone from a good retailer, online or otherwise. If psychologically the drop is hard to manage, I'd still return the Leo ring and try to find a better stone at the dealer who is being deceptively "generous" with his part exchange figures. I'm far from convinced that what he is selling you is a good stone, never mind up there with the best.
1. Is $12500 a reasonable amount to pay for a 1.46 H/SI2 princess cut in a ring?
No. Plain and simple. Even assuming the stone is graded correctly (and it's not something like a J/I1, which is quite possible with a GSI report, more than halving its price), and assuming a good quality plain setting in platinum (or relatively elaborate/microset pave in gold) at $1500, for $11,000 you can get a top-of-the-line cut D/VS2 or E/VS1 in the same size. An H/SI2 (which incidentally is not truly eye clean if you can see the inclusion without a loupe) should go for about half that amount.
2. Is a ring with a 0.98 H/SI1 GSI-graded Leo princess cut (I assume this is what it is; you aren't telling us explicitly!) worth $6099 on eBay or Craigslist?
Again, no. The centre stone would be sold (competitive retail) for $3000 at most, and the setting we are assuming is $1500, so the most a retailer would charge is $4500. Selling on eBay or other online auction sites the most you should assume to get - with all appropriate paperwork (which you don't have), a fair amount of patience and selling skills - is about 70% of that, so about $3300 maximum. Depending on the details of what your diamond is (cut quality, finish, fluorescence, etc.), the centre stone may only be a $1600 stone, and you may not be all that lucky at selling, so you may only see about $1500 back. And even that is not guaranteed.
3. Taking the worst case (i.e. $1500 for your old ring), can you still get a good upgrade by putting in $6500?
Yes. A well cut princess G-H/VS2 of between 1.25 and 1.45 carat is within reach. It is also possible that the vendor may agree to take your old ring in part exchange, but before you bring that into the equation make sure that the price on the other stone/ring is fixed!!!
4. Your other questions:
a. Quality of Leo cut: variable. There's good ones and there's bad ones. Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing what the one you are looking at is without seeing it.
b. Square vs. off-square: generally speaking, ratios of length/width up to about 1.05 will be seen by the eye as square. Some people like the idea of a perfectly square stone, and they tend to be priced slightly higher for that reason.
c. Polish and symmetry: the higher the better, but to see the difference between Good and Very Good you'll need a loupe.
d. Inclusions to the side vs. in the middle: perhaps your jeweller has a point - but he sounds to me as if he's full of inclusions himself. Unless the inclusion "to the side" is right next to the girdle, it's very unlikely to cause any trouble, and it is invisible; should worse come to worst, you have insurance. The inclusion "in the middle" is visible day in day out, and it's not something your insurance company can take care of.
5. What should you do?
If you are not upset by the paper loss on your trade in (from $6100 to $1500 or perhaps a little more), I'd definitely return the Leo ring and start looking for a better quality unbranded stone from a good retailer, online or otherwise. If psychologically the drop is hard to manage, I'd still return the Leo ring and try to find a better stone at the dealer who is being deceptively "generous" with his part exchange figures. I'm far from convinced that what he is selling you is a good stone, never mind up there with the best.
#5
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Posted 17 May 2011 - 12:38 PM
At this point, I wouldn't discount the idea of a trade-in with whoever you are going to buy the diamond from; it may be less money, but it's also a lot less hassle, and depending on how much you enjoy selling it may be less painful overall.
People will look for engagement rings and jewellery bargains on both eBay and Craigslist; on eBay you will probably have more competition, but there is a bigger infrastructure and it's a broader audience. The issue is that unless someone is looking specifically for a Leo, you may have a visibility problem in either place. Idonowidont is awful to buy on in my opinion, but as a vendor it may be better. Be sure to read their T&C very carefully before placing the item for sale, though.
A third option is consignment - it takes longer than a cash-in-hand sale, but values are higher, and you don't need to get involved in the nitty-gritty of setting up an ad etc. Selecting the right consignor is essential, though; the one offering you the highest "for sale" price is not necessarily it, if they cannot sell the merchandise at that price.
Whatever option you choose, it would be good if you can retrieve whatever original documentation you still have - invoices, lab reports, appraisals. They will help reassure the buyer that what you have is genuinely described.
Blue Nile: hum. Pros: solid business, huge volumes and thus somewhat lower costs (not as low as they could, though!), easy-to-use site, decent T&C. Cons: they never own or see the stones, and their own "cut grades" are, erm, how to put it, not exactly reliable.
If you were buying a round, I'd be less hesitant. With a princess, getting a decent cut is not quite as easy as with a round: GIA does not grade cut in princesses and publishes virtually no information on cut in the report, while AGS-graded princesses (with a cut grade) are few and far between, so buying a well cut stone becomes more of a palaver (get one - send it back; get another one - send it back; get a third one - can't remember the first one, but it seemed better, send it back...). Blue Nile will play the game happily, but at $100 return shipping per stone you can find better things to do with your money.
I'd choose a smaller dealer that can call stones in and assess them for you - including taking good photos and video if required - and produce at least a shortlist for you to consider, rather than dealing with the
hundreds or even thousands of stones that an "open list" provides. Just my 2 cents.
People will look for engagement rings and jewellery bargains on both eBay and Craigslist; on eBay you will probably have more competition, but there is a bigger infrastructure and it's a broader audience. The issue is that unless someone is looking specifically for a Leo, you may have a visibility problem in either place. Idonowidont is awful to buy on in my opinion, but as a vendor it may be better. Be sure to read their T&C very carefully before placing the item for sale, though.
A third option is consignment - it takes longer than a cash-in-hand sale, but values are higher, and you don't need to get involved in the nitty-gritty of setting up an ad etc. Selecting the right consignor is essential, though; the one offering you the highest "for sale" price is not necessarily it, if they cannot sell the merchandise at that price.
Whatever option you choose, it would be good if you can retrieve whatever original documentation you still have - invoices, lab reports, appraisals. They will help reassure the buyer that what you have is genuinely described.
Blue Nile: hum. Pros: solid business, huge volumes and thus somewhat lower costs (not as low as they could, though!), easy-to-use site, decent T&C. Cons: they never own or see the stones, and their own "cut grades" are, erm, how to put it, not exactly reliable.
If you were buying a round, I'd be less hesitant. With a princess, getting a decent cut is not quite as easy as with a round: GIA does not grade cut in princesses and publishes virtually no information on cut in the report, while AGS-graded princesses (with a cut grade) are few and far between, so buying a well cut stone becomes more of a palaver (get one - send it back; get another one - send it back; get a third one - can't remember the first one, but it seemed better, send it back...). Blue Nile will play the game happily, but at $100 return shipping per stone you can find better things to do with your money.
I'd choose a smaller dealer that can call stones in and assess them for you - including taking good photos and video if required - and produce at least a shortlist for you to consider, rather than dealing with the
hundreds or even thousands of stones that an "open list" provides. Just my 2 cents.
Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
Diamonds by Lauren (http://diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com
Diamonds by Lauren (http://diamondsbylauren.com)
davide@diamondsbylauren.com
#6
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Platinum
Posted 17 May 2011 - 06:42 PM
So I guess the problem is, I live in Alaska, so I am not sure there are many places to "sell" my diamond. I am not even sure where to start. I called a local jeweler today when I got off work and he said that whatever I do don't go with Blue Nile. He said that I won't have any "protection" as far as if something happened to my ring, he also said he and other jewelers are hesitant to touch there diamonds or rings. I am confused if he is just saying that because they can offer such a low price versus what he can offer or if he really knows something about then diamonds...why wouldn't you buy there rings and set them into your bands if they are so cheap? On his site he sells brands such as simon g, tacori, scottkay...but isn't that the same as a "leo" and about branding. I tried to look at pricing but most won't show prices except tacori which seemed really highly priced-and only a little better quality such as color and clarity-but maybe I am missing something?
What is a T & C? (When I asked about Blue Nile you said they have decent T & C)
I do have all documentation and receipts for when I sell the ring, and will be the old gsi report (I plan on returning my old ring and have it set in its original Leo band, since my setting is the sentimental part) but am just very unsure of what the heck to start the price at since will have to come down and or what is going to be acceptable price...I guess eBay and Craigslist is a good choice, but I am leary of meeting someone and getting my ring stolen, and feel slightly guilty about meeting someone at the Kay's store since I have bought other stuff from then and am not returning my diamond, but understand I have to sale it.
What is a T & C? (When I asked about Blue Nile you said they have decent T & C)
I do have all documentation and receipts for when I sell the ring, and will be the old gsi report (I plan on returning my old ring and have it set in its original Leo band, since my setting is the sentimental part) but am just very unsure of what the heck to start the price at since will have to come down and or what is going to be acceptable price...I guess eBay and Craigslist is a good choice, but I am leary of meeting someone and getting my ring stolen, and feel slightly guilty about meeting someone at the Kay's store since I have bought other stuff from then and am not returning my diamond, but understand I have to sale it.
#7
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- Member
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Platinum
Posted 17 May 2011 - 07:10 PM
Also another question and I have searched but am not quite understanding all the answers. So can someone please dumb it up for me...
From whiteflash they have;
a cut above "ACA diamond"
Expert Selection "ES diamond"
and Premium Select "PS diamond"
What does each one actually mean in easy to understand terms??
So sorry if this is already posted, I have tried to search but am getting confused by all the info.
From whiteflash they have;
a cut above "ACA diamond"
Expert Selection "ES diamond"
and Premium Select "PS diamond"
What does each one actually mean in easy to understand terms??
So sorry if this is already posted, I have tried to search but am getting confused by all the info.
#8
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Ideal Diamond
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Posted 17 May 2011 - 09:51 PM
Curious. The use of the term "protection" brings up images of Mafia racketeers and their scare tactics. And without the Mafia and the racket, but scare tactics it still is, certainly as far as the diamonds go. Metalwork sold by Blue Nile has a mixed reputation and it is at the cheap end of the range, but I have never seen it in person, so what I am saying here is third hand information.
"Protection" is catered for by insurance companies - and that's what you should think about, not a jeweller's extended warranty whereby they will replace the ring if stolen by left-handed kangaroos during a full moon but not otherwise.
Ring brands like Tacori, SimonG, etc. clearly sell (or try to sell) for a premium; differently from "Leo" diamonds, in my opinion, they at least have consistent high quality. Whether you can "escape" the brands is a matter of finding someone you are comfortable with that can provide a high quality, custom-made setting. In terms of cost, the additional diamonds are a minor part of the cost of the ring; the bulk of the money is labour in getting the ring made and finished.
However, I am confused. You keep referring to "your setting" - if you have a setting that you want to keep and adapt to a larger stone, why are you even looking at Tacori?
T&C = Terms and Conditions. AKA "the small print".
On the selling part: shipping jewellery through the post is reasonably safe, as long as some basic precautions are taken. Don't assume that you are limited to placing rings for consignment or sale just with your local. If you find someone local and don't want to use Kays (understandably), why not go to your bank and see if they can lend you an office or a corner of the open plan for half an hour? They are generally pretty accommodating, and this way you can deposit the money right after you have it.
WF has three "cut categories", each with different benefits (e.g. cash back or upgrade policies). ACA are the highest and most expensive, and also the ones with the most consistent look. Expert Selection are seen and considered for ACA, but don't quite make the grade, and PS (I have the impression) are stones that they carry in virtual inventory because someone may be interested.
"Protection" is catered for by insurance companies - and that's what you should think about, not a jeweller's extended warranty whereby they will replace the ring if stolen by left-handed kangaroos during a full moon but not otherwise.
Ring brands like Tacori, SimonG, etc. clearly sell (or try to sell) for a premium; differently from "Leo" diamonds, in my opinion, they at least have consistent high quality. Whether you can "escape" the brands is a matter of finding someone you are comfortable with that can provide a high quality, custom-made setting. In terms of cost, the additional diamonds are a minor part of the cost of the ring; the bulk of the money is labour in getting the ring made and finished.
However, I am confused. You keep referring to "your setting" - if you have a setting that you want to keep and adapt to a larger stone, why are you even looking at Tacori?
T&C = Terms and Conditions. AKA "the small print".
On the selling part: shipping jewellery through the post is reasonably safe, as long as some basic precautions are taken. Don't assume that you are limited to placing rings for consignment or sale just with your local. If you find someone local and don't want to use Kays (understandably), why not go to your bank and see if they can lend you an office or a corner of the open plan for half an hour? They are generally pretty accommodating, and this way you can deposit the money right after you have it.
WF has three "cut categories", each with different benefits (e.g. cash back or upgrade policies). ACA are the highest and most expensive, and also the ones with the most consistent look. Expert Selection are seen and considered for ACA, but don't quite make the grade, and PS (I have the impression) are stones that they carry in virtual inventory because someone may be interested.
Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
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#9
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Opal
Posted 18 May 2011 - 05:53 AM
I read Kay website and they have life time warranty on their stone. as long as you go there for inspection every six months, and if the diamon falls out of the prong, they will replace it for free. I dont know if any one has ever claimed it and got the replacement according to what the policy says thou. This is a great advantage that you cannot get it in online store.
#10
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Posted 18 May 2011 - 06:34 AM
I beg to disagree.
1. You are much more likely to lose the whole ring than the stone - as long as the diamond has been set properly. And whole ring loss/theft/damage is not covered by the jeweller's warranty.
2. Regardless of what you lose or damage, it's normally covered by insurance for most people, since the store coverage is typically very narrowly worded (e.g. no theft or overall loss) and people want broader security.
3. The constraints on getting the ring inspected and worked on only by the jeweller may become rather burdensome, and - in some cases at least - missing the appointment for one day may mean the cover is jeopardised.
4. "Online" only characterises the channel through which the seller is conducting business with you; many retailers will have both online and "brick and mortar" stores and may well offer similar warranties (though caveats 1-3 still apply!)
1. You are much more likely to lose the whole ring than the stone - as long as the diamond has been set properly. And whole ring loss/theft/damage is not covered by the jeweller's warranty.
2. Regardless of what you lose or damage, it's normally covered by insurance for most people, since the store coverage is typically very narrowly worded (e.g. no theft or overall loss) and people want broader security.
3. The constraints on getting the ring inspected and worked on only by the jeweller may become rather burdensome, and - in some cases at least - missing the appointment for one day may mean the cover is jeopardised.
4. "Online" only characterises the channel through which the seller is conducting business with you; many retailers will have both online and "brick and mortar" stores and may well offer similar warranties (though caveats 1-3 still apply!)
Davide - Specialised Consumer Information and Assistance,
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#11
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Posted 18 May 2011 - 06:45 AM
StriderZ, on 18 May 2011 - 05:53 AM, said:
I read Kay website and they have life time warranty on their stone. as long as you go there for inspection every six months, and if the diamon falls out of the prong, they will replace it for free. I dont know if any one has ever claimed it and got the replacement according to what the policy says thou. This is a great advantage that you cannot get it in online store.
3rd party insurance from the likes of Jewelers Mutual or State Farm costs roughly 1%/year in premiums for most customers. What you describe would be a covered loss along with theft, fire and most other perils (that is to say, bunches of things that are NOT covered by the warranty and many of which are actually more likely). Assuming that you are going to buy an insurance policy anyway for these other reasons, the incremental cost of adding this particular coverage is zero. Even if this is the ONLY thing that interests you about the insurance, 20 years worth will still only cost you roughly 20%, and that covers ALL the usual risks associated with insurance, not just manufacturing defects. How much of a premium are you willing to pay to avoid that expense?
Edited by denverappraiser, 18 May 2011 - 09:54 AM.
Neil Beaty
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#12
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Platinum
Posted 18 May 2011 - 09:19 AM
I have my ownsetting. An enhancer, and the actual setting which held my .98 and they were able to get my upgraded Leo into.
So if I sell my old diamond (that I'll get back once I return the upgrade) for an estimated 1,500 (which we paid 6,000 for) and add that to the 6,000 my husband had put to my upgrade for a total of 7,500 am I going to find a better quality diamond then the one I have? Bc at that point we've spent 12,000 but will only have 7,500 to spend bc of the loss??
So what does a Leo translate as far as cut? I'm curios as when I'm comparing these diamonds online that the range is ideal which seems the best. But to get around what I have presently in ideal cut the cost is 10-13,000 if so then the 4,000 loss isn't worth losing...right, bc I won't have that cash to get a 1.4-1.5 H/I ideal cut ex polish ex symmetry SI1 or even one above where I can't see the inclusion with a naked eye. Which I can spot right now?
What is the best online place?
I was looking at tacori and the other brand bc at the local jewelers that's what he said to do to get an idea of the diamonds he carries. He said he had loose too. But the cost of those diamonds will barely get me a karat. And I still have to sell my diamond, which is going to be a huge stressor.
So if I sell my old diamond (that I'll get back once I return the upgrade) for an estimated 1,500 (which we paid 6,000 for) and add that to the 6,000 my husband had put to my upgrade for a total of 7,500 am I going to find a better quality diamond then the one I have? Bc at that point we've spent 12,000 but will only have 7,500 to spend bc of the loss??
So what does a Leo translate as far as cut? I'm curios as when I'm comparing these diamonds online that the range is ideal which seems the best. But to get around what I have presently in ideal cut the cost is 10-13,000 if so then the 4,000 loss isn't worth losing...right, bc I won't have that cash to get a 1.4-1.5 H/I ideal cut ex polish ex symmetry SI1 or even one above where I can't see the inclusion with a naked eye. Which I can spot right now?
What is the best online place?
I was looking at tacori and the other brand bc at the local jewelers that's what he said to do to get an idea of the diamonds he carries. He said he had loose too. But the cost of those diamonds will barely get me a karat. And I still have to sell my diamond, which is going to be a huge stressor.
#13
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Posted 18 May 2011 - 09:35 AM
Leo's aren't the same facet design as modern round brilliants and even at that they aren't all the same. Some are better than others. You can go to the 'diamond finder' utility above and shop for comparable stones. Even if you have no intention of shopping with any of these folks, it's a free and easy way of callibrating your own feel for what things cost. You'll notice that there's a considerable range of prices on superficially similar things so be careful what you choose to call comparable. Tiny details matter a lot. I'm rather fond of 'ideal' cutting but it's not comparing apples to apples with what you have, nor is using GIA grading lab (another thing I tend to recommend). The BIG BIG BIG zinger here is your taste. Do you like the Leo facet design? Do you like it better or worse than the more traditional 58 facet design? Some people do, some don't. If you don't know, go to the store and look at some actual dimaonds under a variety of different lighting and get a feel for what you want. A good price on the wrong thing is no bargain after all.
ETA. Leo princess cuts actually ARE the same facet design as the more generic stones. Everything else above still applies, including the part about them not all being the same but the comments about facet design have to do with their round stones.
ETA. Leo princess cuts actually ARE the same facet design as the more generic stones. Everything else above still applies, including the part about them not all being the same but the comments about facet design have to do with their round stones.
Edited by denverappraiser, 18 May 2011 - 09:57 AM.
Neil Beaty
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#14
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Posted 18 May 2011 - 09:52 AM
MicheaShea, on 17 May 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:
What is a T & C? (When I asked about Blue Nile you said they have decent T & C)
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.
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#15
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Posted 18 May 2011 - 10:14 AM
MicheaShea, on 18 May 2011 - 09:19 AM, said:
I have my ownsetting. An enhancer, and the actual setting which held my .98 and they were able to get my upgraded Leo into.
So if I sell my old diamond (that I'll get back once I return the upgrade) for an estimated 1,500 (which we paid 6,000 for) and add that to the 6,000 my husband had put to my upgrade for a total of 7,500 am I going to find a better quality diamond then the one I have? Bc at that point we've spent 12,000 but will only have 7,500 to spend bc of the loss??
So what does a Leo translate as far as cut? I'm curios as when I'm comparing these diamonds online that the range is ideal which seems the best. But to get around what I have presently in ideal cut the cost is 10-13,000 if so then the 4,000 loss isn't worth losing...right, bc I won't have that cash to get a 1.4-1.5 H/I ideal cut ex polish ex symmetry SI1 or even one above where I can't see the inclusion with a naked eye. Which I can spot right now?
What is the best online place?
I was looking at tacori and the other brand bc at the local jewelers that's what he said to do to get an idea of the diamonds he carries. He said he had loose too. But the cost of those diamonds will barely get me a karat. And I still have to sell my diamond, which is going to be a huge stressor.
So if I sell my old diamond (that I'll get back once I return the upgrade) for an estimated 1,500 (which we paid 6,000 for) and add that to the 6,000 my husband had put to my upgrade for a total of 7,500 am I going to find a better quality diamond then the one I have? Bc at that point we've spent 12,000 but will only have 7,500 to spend bc of the loss??
So what does a Leo translate as far as cut? I'm curios as when I'm comparing these diamonds online that the range is ideal which seems the best. But to get around what I have presently in ideal cut the cost is 10-13,000 if so then the 4,000 loss isn't worth losing...right, bc I won't have that cash to get a 1.4-1.5 H/I ideal cut ex polish ex symmetry SI1 or even one above where I can't see the inclusion with a naked eye. Which I can spot right now?
What is the best online place?
I was looking at tacori and the other brand bc at the local jewelers that's what he said to do to get an idea of the diamonds he carries. He said he had loose too. But the cost of those diamonds will barely get me a karat. And I still have to sell my diamond, which is going to be a huge stressor.
You didn’t give the specs on the one you’re ‘selling’ but if it’s in that H/SI2 range and under a carat, $1500 may be a bit generous. $1000 - $1300 is more like what I would expect a dealer to be paying. What it cost you is beside the point.
At the margin (pay $6800 for the most expensive stone here, sell yours for $1000), you’re at about a wash for the $6k your husband paid for the ‘upgrade’. I agree, it's worth something to not have to go through the pain and to buy a stone you can see in person and from a dealer who is one of your neighbors. How much more is up to you. If you buy a cheaper stone, or can get more on the resale than it's all gain.
Expect a few hundred in fees for the resetting labor no matter how you do it by the way.
Neil Beaty
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#16
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Platinum
Posted 18 May 2011 - 11:49 AM
So how can I compare what the "value" or what I would pay for the diamond I have right now? Since the cut is a big deal and my paperwork only says Leo princess. How do I know what a diamond I have would go for?
The reasoning for this is that if I'm going to lose 4,500 in selling my ring and in the end not going to be able to really get an nice diamond (say I make 1,500 and the 6,000 my husbands going to put towards my new one) then selling the "old" .98 Leo is almost a bad choice for me. unless I can get a better quality diamond for 7,500?? Which look to be running around 10,000-13 on Blue Nile.
The reasoning for this is that if I'm going to lose 4,500 in selling my ring and in the end not going to be able to really get an nice diamond (say I make 1,500 and the 6,000 my husbands going to put towards my new one) then selling the "old" .98 Leo is almost a bad choice for me. unless I can get a better quality diamond for 7,500?? Which look to be running around 10,000-13 on Blue Nile.
denverappraiser, on 18 May 2011 - 09:35 AM, said:
Leo's aren't the same facet design as modern round brilliants and even at that they aren't all the same. Some are better than others. You can go to the 'diamond finder' utility above and shop for comparable stones. Even if you have no intention of shopping with any of these folks, it's a free and easy way of callibrating your own feel for what things cost. You'll notice that there's a considerable range of prices on superficially similar things so be careful what you choose to call comparable. Tiny details matter a lot. I'm rather fond of 'ideal' cutting but it's not comparing apples to apples with what you have, nor is using GIA grading lab (another thing I tend to recommend). The BIG BIG BIG zinger here is your taste. Do you like the Leo facet design? Do you like it better or worse than the more traditional 58 facet design? Some people do, some don't. If you don't know, go to the store and look at some actual dimaonds under a variety of different lighting and get a feel for what you want. A good price on the wrong thing is no bargain after all.
ETA. Leo princess cuts actually ARE the same facet design as the more generic stones. Everything else above still applies, including the part about them not all being the same but the comments about facet design have to do with their round stones.
ETA. Leo princess cuts actually ARE the same facet design as the more generic stones. Everything else above still applies, including the part about them not all being the same but the comments about facet design have to do with their round stones.
#17
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Posted 18 May 2011 - 12:22 PM
play with the diamond finder utility at the top of the page. 1.40-1.49 / I / SI1-SI2 / princess produces offers for a dozen or so stones, including, for example, this one from Blue Nile at $6698. The most expensive stone in the list is $6700.
http://www.bluenile....mond_LD02073826
Again I ask: Where are you getting the $10-$13k number?
You've asked 2 critical questions that aren't really answered in the above:
How do you evaluate the cut on a GIA (or ANYONE other than AGS) graded princess? You look at it in a variety of lighting conditions. It's the same way you do it at a store. As an appraiser, I have an assortment of tools that I can use both to evaulate things and document them but there simply is not enough information provided on the lab report to tell. You can get a feel for some of it based on the outside shape and proportions and by shopping with a dealer who is selling goods they actually have (BN does not).
How do you know what you can expect to get for your existing stone? That's tough because there is a component of your own skills at selling things. Some people are much better at this than others. The range is considerable. You said 0.98/SI2/princess. What's the color? How do you plan to go about selling it? If you're selling to a local dealer it's just a matter of showing it to them and getting a bid. Long distance is slightly more difficult but it's basically the same thing. It might benefit you to hire an independent pro to assist but that's up to you. Where did the $1500 number that you gave up above?
$6k plus your existing stone is NOT unreasonable if the grading is reasonably accurate, especially for a local store that you would otherwise like to support but be aware that SI2 and I are both right on important borderlines. You may be be able to get a little bit here or there but it's not going to be huge.
http://www.bluenile....mond_LD02073826
Again I ask: Where are you getting the $10-$13k number?
You've asked 2 critical questions that aren't really answered in the above:
How do you evaluate the cut on a GIA (or ANYONE other than AGS) graded princess? You look at it in a variety of lighting conditions. It's the same way you do it at a store. As an appraiser, I have an assortment of tools that I can use both to evaulate things and document them but there simply is not enough information provided on the lab report to tell. You can get a feel for some of it based on the outside shape and proportions and by shopping with a dealer who is selling goods they actually have (BN does not).
How do you know what you can expect to get for your existing stone? That's tough because there is a component of your own skills at selling things. Some people are much better at this than others. The range is considerable. You said 0.98/SI2/princess. What's the color? How do you plan to go about selling it? If you're selling to a local dealer it's just a matter of showing it to them and getting a bid. Long distance is slightly more difficult but it's basically the same thing. It might benefit you to hire an independent pro to assist but that's up to you. Where did the $1500 number that you gave up above?
$6k plus your existing stone is NOT unreasonable if the grading is reasonably accurate, especially for a local store that you would otherwise like to support but be aware that SI2 and I are both right on important borderlines. You may be be able to get a little bit here or there but it's not going to be huge.
Edited by denverappraiser, 18 May 2011 - 12:37 PM.
Neil Beaty
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#18
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Posted 18 May 2011 - 12:32 PM
@MicheaShea
For example: here's one that I think is very nice, is a shade under $8k for a wire transfer, and is certainly very well cut, as well as being higher colour and nice clarity (no doubts about "will I see it or won't I?"). Only negative is that it's not quite as large as the other, but with a little searching we can find one that has it all. It is just a matter of patience.
http://www.briangavi...GS-104044774001
and yes, Brian Gavin is a competitor of mine, and I'm recommending one of his stones. There is no affiliation or agreement between us, and he is probably not even aware that I am recommending it.
I understand that psychologically you are taking a huge "loss" (or rather, you gave a huge, undeserved profit to the dealer that sold you your first ring), but is it really better to get a poorer deal overall and throw good money after bad to end up with a lower quality stone than you may get?
@Neil
The $1500 was my estimate based on the stone being comparable to an EGL-graded 0.98 H/SI1, which is what Schachter/Kays/GSI were grading it, and Michea selling it privately on eBay/Craigslist
For example: here's one that I think is very nice, is a shade under $8k for a wire transfer, and is certainly very well cut, as well as being higher colour and nice clarity (no doubts about "will I see it or won't I?"). Only negative is that it's not quite as large as the other, but with a little searching we can find one that has it all. It is just a matter of patience.
http://www.briangavi...GS-104044774001
and yes, Brian Gavin is a competitor of mine, and I'm recommending one of his stones. There is no affiliation or agreement between us, and he is probably not even aware that I am recommending it.
I understand that psychologically you are taking a huge "loss" (or rather, you gave a huge, undeserved profit to the dealer that sold you your first ring), but is it really better to get a poorer deal overall and throw good money after bad to end up with a lower quality stone than you may get?
@Neil
The $1500 was my estimate based on the stone being comparable to an EGL-graded 0.98 H/SI1, which is what Schachter/Kays/GSI were grading it, and Michea selling it privately on eBay/Craigslist
Edited by davidelevi, 18 May 2011 - 12:36 PM.
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#19
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Posted 18 May 2011 - 12:40 PM
davidelevi, on 18 May 2011 - 12:32 PM, said:
@Neil
The $1500 was my estimate based on the stone being comparable to an EGL-graded 0.98 H/SI1, which is what Schachter/Kays/GSI were grading it, and Michea selling it privately on eBay/Craigslist
The $1500 was my estimate based on the stone being comparable to an EGL-graded 0.98 H/SI1, which is what Schachter/Kays/GSI were grading it, and Michea selling it privately on eBay/Craigslist
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
There's never a crowd when you go that extra mile.
Professional Appraisals in Denver
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#20
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Posted 18 May 2011 - 07:35 PM
Last novel...
OK, thanks you two, you have been really helpful.
So I went to Kays today, to return the ring. They said that my old diamond had been sent back yesterday, so they would have to order it back, at first they asked if I wanted a different Leo with a higher clarity (which I was just looking over to compare the specs) and it was an SI1 and I color but to even that out the Leo's polish and symmetry were good/good. Where my current is a 1.46 Cts, H, SI2, and ex polish and vg symmetry. So obviously NO, and told her my reasoning and everything I had learned on here! The lady admitted that people buy a Leo for the extra cuts, and some like it more some don't but it comes with a extra charge specifically for that name. But she said that I could return the ring no problem.
After talking a good amount of time and her hearing that I was most concerned with paying possibly double (after searching around and seeing that the GSI report can be 2 off either way would or could equate) or a little less than that I was not OK with paying that much money for a name.
I threw out Blue Niles name and she was concerned and tried to talk me out of it...stating some non-truths (said that once I get the diamond that's it and they don't accept returns-which BN says they do for 30 days) and a few others things that the site says otherwise and some hear say but none the less she said that if I want to scratch the idea of the Leo diamond, Kays can order from a few places one I think she mentioned was red box and named a few others and threw and stated all their certifications.
So if I can order a decent diamond (we will see what they can get me for 12,000-my old leo is 6,000 so I still have to spend double for them to do there trade up) what specifications as far as grading do I need to say I want? I know that I don't want GSI but there were a few others I think I saw on this site that were talked about as having shady ratings. She said that I could give whatever specifications I wanted and they would search for it...I just need to know where/what I need to ask for tomorrow when I get off work.
Specifically what is the price difference or overall difference in cut? Since I don't really understand why the pricing jumps so much higher for a ideal.
This might be the best option because one of the local jewelers (Michaels) said I am really going to lose a lot and was said here (like the rough estimate of how you said I would/could get around $1,500 for my .98 diamond) and if I can get a pretty decent diamond ordered and lose less in commission or whatever they charge additionally I am a lot more willing to stay with Kays and lose that much verus the 4,500 by selling my diamond for 1500! Thoughts, opinions on what I need to look for in around the 12,000 range what or where I want the reports to come from.
They also specified that if the diamond was ever lost they replace it if you had it checked their every 6 months and that if you miss the 6 momths and it wasn't current then you would have to paid 1/3 of the replacement price if you lose it-so that must be their actual cost is my guess.
Thanks again for the help-you guys have saved me from losing a lot of money and I really appreciate it.
*Wanted to add;
Also they said that the 1.46 barely fit, so that I would have to really stick with the same measurements or less. But that isn't my issue I am more concerned with having a good diamond that can be passed down and not have visible inclusions.
OK, thanks you two, you have been really helpful.
So I went to Kays today, to return the ring. They said that my old diamond had been sent back yesterday, so they would have to order it back, at first they asked if I wanted a different Leo with a higher clarity (which I was just looking over to compare the specs) and it was an SI1 and I color but to even that out the Leo's polish and symmetry were good/good. Where my current is a 1.46 Cts, H, SI2, and ex polish and vg symmetry. So obviously NO, and told her my reasoning and everything I had learned on here! The lady admitted that people buy a Leo for the extra cuts, and some like it more some don't but it comes with a extra charge specifically for that name. But she said that I could return the ring no problem.
After talking a good amount of time and her hearing that I was most concerned with paying possibly double (after searching around and seeing that the GSI report can be 2 off either way would or could equate) or a little less than that I was not OK with paying that much money for a name.
I threw out Blue Niles name and she was concerned and tried to talk me out of it...stating some non-truths (said that once I get the diamond that's it and they don't accept returns-which BN says they do for 30 days) and a few others things that the site says otherwise and some hear say but none the less she said that if I want to scratch the idea of the Leo diamond, Kays can order from a few places one I think she mentioned was red box and named a few others and threw and stated all their certifications.
So if I can order a decent diamond (we will see what they can get me for 12,000-my old leo is 6,000 so I still have to spend double for them to do there trade up) what specifications as far as grading do I need to say I want? I know that I don't want GSI but there were a few others I think I saw on this site that were talked about as having shady ratings. She said that I could give whatever specifications I wanted and they would search for it...I just need to know where/what I need to ask for tomorrow when I get off work.
Specifically what is the price difference or overall difference in cut? Since I don't really understand why the pricing jumps so much higher for a ideal.
This might be the best option because one of the local jewelers (Michaels) said I am really going to lose a lot and was said here (like the rough estimate of how you said I would/could get around $1,500 for my .98 diamond) and if I can get a pretty decent diamond ordered and lose less in commission or whatever they charge additionally I am a lot more willing to stay with Kays and lose that much verus the 4,500 by selling my diamond for 1500! Thoughts, opinions on what I need to look for in around the 12,000 range what or where I want the reports to come from.
They also specified that if the diamond was ever lost they replace it if you had it checked their every 6 months and that if you miss the 6 momths and it wasn't current then you would have to paid 1/3 of the replacement price if you lose it-so that must be their actual cost is my guess.
Thanks again for the help-you guys have saved me from losing a lot of money and I really appreciate it.
*Wanted to add;
Also they said that the 1.46 barely fit, so that I would have to really stick with the same measurements or less. But that isn't my issue I am more concerned with having a good diamond that can be passed down and not have visible inclusions.
Edited by MicheaShea, 18 May 2011 - 07:38 PM.
