14 replies to this topic

[Poppy]

hello everybody

I've been a silent reader for a couple of weeks now and I cannot say enough good things about this forum!

My soon to be hubby and I are currently shopping for engagement rings and have a couple of stones to choose from. May I kindly ask your opinion on these?

All have a GIA certificate. I now that the are a bit hard to compare with the color range from D, E to F. The stone from our local jeweller is approx. 15% more expensive than the equivalent stone from bluenile. Is it any better proportionwise? We feel a little bit unsure about buying at bluenile. I now that everything is legit and a GIA is a GIA, but still, the price difference is so high (we're talking about USD 6-8') so that we might end up buying online.

I checked all in the HCA tool and the bluenile ones were all total "excellent" where else the stone from the local boutique had a total score of 2.6 and is "only" very good. Should I take this into consideration too?

I really appreciate all your thoughts and I do apologize for my long post.

Looking forward to hear back from you

kind regard & thanks



______________________

STONE 1 (bluenile)

Natural Diamond
1.58 ct
Round brilliant cut
Measurements - 7.45 x 7.51 x 4.61
Proportions - Excellent
Depth - 61.7%
Table - 56%
Crown - 15%
Pavilion depth - 43%
Girdle thickness - medium-slightly thick
Finish grade - Excellent
Purity* - vvs1
Colour Grade - e
Photoluminescencee - Non
____________________________________
STONE 2 (bluenile)
Natural Diamond
1.58 ct
Round brilliant cut
Measurements - 7.49 x 7.51 x 4.63
Proportions - Excellent
Depth - 61.8%
Table - 55%
Crown - 15.5%
Pavilion depth - 43%
Girdle thickness - thin-medium
Finish grade - Excellent
Purity* - vvs1
Colour Grade - D
Photoluminescence - None
________________________________
Stone 3 (bluenile)
Natural Diamond
1.58 ct
Round brilliant cut
Measurements - 7.57 x 7.60 x 4.60
Proportions - Excellent
Depth - 60.6%
Table - 56%
Crown - 15%
Pavilion depth - 43.5%
Girdle thickness - thin
Finish grade - Excellent
Purity* - vvs1
Colour Grade - f
Photoluminescence - None
___________________________

Stone 4 (bluenile)
Natural Diamond
1.56 ct
Round brilliant cut
Measurements - 7.42 x 7.47 x 4.57
Proportions - Excellent
Depth - 61.4%
Table - 56%
Crown - 15.5%
Pavilion depth - 42.5%
Girdle thickness - thin-medium
Finish grade - Excellent
Purity* - vvs2
Colour Grade - f
Photoluminescence - None
____________________________
STONE 5 (local jeweller)

Natural Diamond
1.58 ct
Round brilliant cut
Measurements - 7.43 x 7.48 x 4.61
Proportions - Excellent
Depth - 61.8%
Table - 58%
Crown - 14.5%
Pavilion depth - 43.5%
Girdle thickness - medium-slightly thick
Finish grade - Excellent
Purity* - vs1
Colour Grade - E
Photoluminescence - None

[davidelevi]

Well, on paper you have chosen 5 very nice stones. Not only that, but they are - on paper - rather well matched in terms of proportions. I think you have pushed the choice as far as you can based on a GIA report; to go further, you either choose one because you like it, and be happy in the knowledge that you have one of the finest diamonds money can buy, or you need to see the stones to compare them and decide what you prefer.

From this point of view, Blue Nile is not a particularly good vendor to pick, not because there is anything wrong with their business practices, but because they will not (as far as I know) "call stones in" for them to photograph and video, or arrange a visit to Blue Nile premises so you can choose "live".

FWIW, if I had to pick one, assuming equal prices I'd be drawn to #3.

Ignore the HCA - at this point, you have selected diamonds of such high quality (on paper) that it no longer discriminates anything, if it ever did.

ETA: I assume you know you are paying a hefty premium for no visual benefit in choosing such high grades for colour and clarity, and choosing to stay above 1.50 carats. Nothing wrong with that, but a well cut 1.45 G/VS2 will look the same to all practical intents and purposes, and cost less than half as much.

Edited by davidelevi, 17 May 2011 - 12:46 AM.

[Poppy]

Thanks for your reply.

you're right, that I cannot "see" the stones from bluenile in person. This is something that bothers me slightly. On the other hand, as you also have said, our pre-choice is rather good, so when we were looking at the stones at the local jeweller, it was somewhat hard to me to see the differences in the stones. All were eye-clean (in the vvs2-vs1) range and the colors were E's and a F. So at the end of the day, I'm not sure on how to decide even when seeing the stones in person *lol*. I've read about people who were saying that the stone "sang" to their heart, but as all the stones I have seen are beautiful and sparkly like hell, I didn't feel this kind of emotions. I just was very very happy to be in the position to get such a beautiful ring in the future!

Regarding your thoughts on clarity and color, you're right. Totally. That's what I've been reading on this forum as well. But, this is going to be my ring for the future. In my culture, there is no such thing as "trading" up your engagement ring after a couple of years (have heard that it's quite poular in the USA) - nothing wrong with it. So I'd like to buy a stone which I truly love and which has the best features we can and wnat afford. I don't need IF or D color, but a nice stone in E or F with VVS1 should give us peace for the next decades to come. KWIM? But I appreciate your great advice in going just below 1.5 and a bit down in color/clarity. In this case, I'd be "forced" to buy locally as I would want to see the stones - but as the prices are so much more expensive than on bluenile for example, where I would get a much better stone for the bucks, I'm drawn towards this option.

I see that you stated a couple of times that the stones look good on "paper"; how should I take this? Wouldn't you trust on the certificate of this kind of high quality (in color, clarity) stones? If a stone has a VVS1 clarity, is there a need to see it in person - I see this need for a SI stone - there it's really crucial to see whether the intrusions are obvious or not..

sorry for all these questions. But I want to be 100% sure, as we'll spend a lot of money and we want to be happy with our choice in the end!

one last: why would you be drwan to No 3 stone (F) and not no. 1 (E)?

looking forward to your futher thoughts

many thanks

davidelevi, on 16 May 2011 - 11:11 PM, said:

Well, on paper you have chosen 5 very nice stones. Not only that, but they are - on paper - rather well matched in terms of proportions. I think you have pushed the choice as far as you can based on a GIA report; to go further, you either choose one because you like it, and be happy in the knowledge that you have one of the finest diamonds money can buy, or you need to see the stones to compare them and decide what you prefer.

From this point of view, Blue Nile is not a particularly good vendor to pick, not because there is anything wrong with their business practices, but because they will not (as far as I know) "call stones in" for them to photograph and video, or arrange a visit to Blue Nile premises so you can choose "live".

FWIW, if I had to pick one, assuming equal prices I'd be drawn to #3.

Ignore the HCA - at this point, you have selected diamonds of such high quality (on paper) that it no longer discriminates anything, if it ever did.

ETA: I assume you know you are paying a hefty premium for no visual benefit in choosing such high grades for colour and clarity, and choosing to stay above 1.50 carats. Nothing wrong with that, but a well cut 1.45 G/VS2 will look the same to all practical intents and purposes, and cost less than half as much.

Edited by Poppy, 17 May 2011 - 02:16 AM.

[davidelevi]

Please don't let my comments about stones looking good "on paper" trouble you. These are all superb diamonds - the issue is that on the report (our only source of info at this point) there isn't really enough information to say x is better than y.

We know (because of the excellent cut and symmetry grades) that there isn't any significant trouble, but the actual look of the stones depends on more than just the cut grade and the parameters it takes into account. GIA "Excellent" covers a pretty broad range of looks; none of them can be defined poor or even marginal, but people's preferences will vary. I don't see any way on the basis of the info you have (or that BN publishes) to differentiate among them, and they are likely to look very similar. Would you prefer one in particular? That's where I'm not even going to guess!

BTW - you wouldn't happen to have the crown and pavillion angles for the stones? It's not adding a lot (since they are averages of 8 angles across the stone), but it may help detecting some potential differences in looks.

Why #3? It's the largest (by a whiff) of the lot, and you will not see the difference between an E and an F once they are set. (I'm also guessing #3 may be marginally cheaper than the rest, but that's not the reason I'm picking it, though it doesn't hurt)

On clarity and the need to buy locally: bear in mind that a non-eye clean VS2 is a very rare animal, and anything VS1 and above is going to be difficult to find with a loupe. On colour - here is a little test for you:

Here's four stones, ranging from D to H (E is missing). Can you tell which is which? The photo is unretouched, apart from cropping.

Edited by davidelevi, 17 May 2011 - 04:30 AM.

[Poppy]

Hi Davide

thanks again for your great effort & thoughts you put into your answer to all my questions. I really appreciate this.

Coming back to some of your questions regarding crown and pavillion angles (and I added the rounded price-points) :

stone 1: 34.0 // 41.0 (USD 32')
stone 2: 35.0 // 40.8 (USD 39')
stone 3: 34.0 // 41.0 (USD 29')
stone 4: 35.5 // 40.6 (USD 27)
stone 5: 35.0 // 41.0 (USD 40')

would you have any other thoughts, now that you have seen the angels? are some of the stones better than the others?

I tend to like no 1 very much; followed by no. 3; although the though of having a D (=stone 2) is quite tempting as well!! I know, it's crazy, but we were thinking that we get for the same price as we would pay for the stone we found locally 2 steps up in clarity and 1 step up in color...

uff...I simply cannot tell the differences in the 4 stones. no 2 looks sparklier and whiter than the others but it's very very hard to tell on my screen i'd say, the second last is probably an H? so: G, D, H, F???

cheers,

[davidelevi]

Given prices, I'd almost definitely discard #5; or at the very least, keep it as second (or third) option, and think of your initial "purchase" as paying a shipping fee to see the diamond. If you happen to like it less than the one at your local jeweller, I am pretty sure the latter is not going to fly out of the window in the meantime...

Having seen the angles (non Angeli sunt, sed anguli - quoth St. Augustine, more or less, but what a good typo!), I'm still keen on #3. But again, all "read" well. Very well. And not getting us any closer to a choice. Bummer!

If the D weren't so much more expensive, I'd be tempted too, but I feel you really won't see the difference once set. BTW - the diamonds in the quiz photo are F, D, G, H. And I believe the D was right in the middle of the light, which is why it looks so much brighter. And I could not see the difference in the photo either, so don't feel bad.

[Poppy]

*lol*, yes that's a nice typo indeed - angel vs angles

thanks for you additional thoughts. I think we'll consider either stone 1 or 3 now. I just feel a tad bad about having to say "no" to the local jeweller. They especially brought in the stone from the states and I feel a bit bad for having been in the boutique for 2-3 hrs in total and not buying anything. But at the end of the day the price difference is enormeous! Perhaps I'll buy the setting from them as I really liked it and I'm not sure about whether I'm gonna like the setting from bluenile or not.

you're right about the D. It looks beautiful on the paper, but I'm quite positive too that I won't see the differences between d & e as well. So I'd probably settle for the e, as a very very good "middle way". the difference in price will not only buy me the setting but perhaps also an upgrade of my solitaire earrings

we're off for a long weekend - we won't buy today, so maybe I'm coming back with some more ideas/questions next week

many thanks again!

[davidelevi]

Just one thought - if you are not in the US, remember to add in to your price considerations and comparisons any duties and taxes that may become due on import, and bear in mind that they may change - sometimes considerably - whether the stone is loose or mounted.

I am wondering whether part of the price difference you are seeing from the local jeweller is due to this, as well as the unavoidable cost increase associated with buying from a "high service" channel.

Enjoy your long weekend!

[Poppy]

yep - you're right regarding the taxes. I included it in my calculation and the price of the boutique stone is still higher. The price of the stone in the boutique will decrease by about 10% when in my currency and the prices of the bluenile stones pretty much stay the same when I include the tax and convert in my currency. So stone no 1 (e, vvs1) is still 32' comparing to the boutique option of 1.58ct, E, VS1 which comes to about 36' in my currency (guess where i'm living ). So with the difference, I can get the setting AND a clearer stone....

I'm off now, hope to find a conclusion by beginning of next week

a big thank you!!

[davidelevi]

A pleasure to be able to help.

(Don't know where you are living, but we could be neighbours, based on the exchange and tax rates...)

[Poppy]

I'm back from a long weekend and we still have not decided

my fiance had a talk about the price with the local jeweler and they are willing to give us the ring/setting for free. this brings the locally bought stone "down" to the price level of no. 1 stone from bluenile (give/take 1'000). I'd be able to get it checked whenever I want to and would kind of have peace of mind.

The only difference from the cert is that the bluenile stone is a vvs1 and the local stone is a vs1 (but with very few intrusions, compared to some othe vs1 certs I've seen).

What's the visible difference between the 56% crown (bluenile) vs. 58% crown (local). will the later appear "bigger"?

I'd appreciate any feedback from you guys. I'm quite nervous now......

[davidelevi]

VVS1 vs. VS1 you'll never see without a loupe, a pair of sharp eyes and a fair amount of time. Don't worry about it from a visual point of view.

56 vs 58% table - you may see it (perhaps) if you put the two stones right next to each other as a slightly larger "flash" from the table. The stones will appear the same size. And if your choice is between #1 and #5, I'd pick #5 at the same price.

[Poppy]

Davide, many thanks for your fast reply.


I'm pretty relaxed for the vs1 and vvs1 difference. I've seen the vs1 stone at my local boutique and it's beautiful. I know, it's only for the certificate and nobody will never know or see. and as I don't buy for investment but for wearing it every day for the rest of my life (how dramatic ), this is absolutely ok


As the guys at the local boutique are offering the ring setting (which is around 4k), the prices of no. 1 and 5 will be comparable. As I already decided on the setting (from the local boutique and not from bluenile - as it fits perfectly with my wedding band), I think we are sold on number 5 from my jeweler.


I'm really exited now and my fiance and I need to have the final talk


cheers again for your great help and I'll report back on our final decision.

[davidelevi]

Photos, please!!! Including hand shots, please!

And congratulations on choosing a wonderful stone (and an even more wonderful partner).

[Poppy]

yesssssss........we did it (or so to speak: my fiance did it)!!! he bought the stone from the local jeweler today!

I did not get any information about when and where I'll get my rock. He just told me to be patient I cannot wait to see it in it's setting!!!