56 replies to this topic

[leod11]

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Edited by leod11, 05 May 2011 - 06:17 AM.

[LaurieH]

Unless there's some particular reason that you're going with a signature cut, I think you can totally get a better price on a better diamond if you were to go with standard cut round brilliant. You pay a premium for a signature cut, but those extra facets just make it sparkle on the surface--that doesn't mean that it's a better cut and that it has good light performance, which is what you're looking for in a diamond.

[davidelevi]

...and BTW, when you are comparing, take into account that GSI is not a reliable lab, so their I/SI2 could be J/I1 (which is a BIG deal as far as price is concerned) or it could be lower or higher. No way of telling without seeing the stone (and preferably having it regraded by a reliable lab)

[denverappraiser]

Buying from a large and well known supplier comes with a level of confidence that’s valuable and I have no great problem with Leo’s. There are a few things you’ve brought up that I think may require some clarification.

#1. All Leos are not the same in terms of cut. Just like modern round brilliants, they vary from one to the next and it’s worthwhile to shop them against one another. The onus is on the jeweler to convince you that THAT one is the best for you. Maybe they’ve done this but you haven’t mentioned it.

#2. Prices. Stores can charge whatever they want but be careful about blanket claims like ‘Leos are cheaper than H&A’s’. This is flatly false. In most cases they cost more, and sometimes quite a bit more. Leo has a limited distribution network and the whole point is to drive up the prices. H&A is a loosely defined concept that may or may not mean anything for you but the fact that generics are available drives the prices down. This store may be charging more for THEIR H&A line, or at least the one that they showed you to defend their prices, but it’s a mistake to extrapolate this to the suggestion that all H&A claimed stones cost more.

#3 The lab isn’t what makes a beautiful diamond beautiful and it’s not correct to say that you are being cheated by getting a GSI grading. That said, as with the above, they are using this lab because they get better sounding grades for the same stone and they are making it more difficult for you to compare apples to apples. They charge whatever it is that they charge and since you’ve said you’re ok with paying a premium to buy from these folks I’m not going to get into the pricing but if you’re being told to compare against stones from another lab, you are being led to make an unreasonable comparison. If you want to buy from a local store that sells GSI stones with extra facets, shop for that as your basis for comparison, not with H&A's sold there or with GIA stones sold elsewhere. If you’re in a big city it’s not that hard a call and if you’re online, shop for fantasy cuts with IGI or EGL grading (GSI is a rather small lab so they don’t have much of a footprint in the global market. There are several cutters out there using special facet designs ranging from 88 - hundreds of facets each). Your local jewelers really should be able to get them if you ask.

Is it a good price? That’s the question you keep on coming back to and it depends on what you are using for comparison. If the standard for comparison is how much that particular store charges for a Leo branded stone today, yes, that seems to be what they charge. But then you already knew that. If you’re using something else as a comparative basis or asking us to do the same, what is it?

[nancial]

Hello - I hope it will be benificial to share my story with a recent Leo purchase. I was looking for a nice right hand ring as a mother's day gift (from husband and kids). This was a "one time shot" purchase, so I wanted to make sure I got a nice ring that will be something to hand down to my daughter some day. I purchased the Leo .98CT solitare, color: H, SI2, with an enhancer band, .75CT color I, SI2 for a total of just over $8K. I was sold on the "brilliance" this ring was to have. I admit, this is my fault for not doing research. After a few days I was not impressed by any additional "brilliance" of this stone compared to my non Leo solitaire engagement ring. I became curious and after reading reviews, I felt like perhaps I had been slightly "taken". This is my concern for other shoppers:

I had three separate appraisals done by reputable non-mall chain jewelers in my state:

The solitaire consistently appraised at only $3700! (this alone was $6K from Kay's). The color and SI2 rating seemed to be okay, but the cut was consistantly rated as "Poor".

The enhancer ring faired slightly better, although the cuts did not match and it was reported back to me that it has an "uneven" appearance due to this small variation.

In total, the appraisals priced this ring in total as no more than $5K. Again, I paid over $8K. Needless to say, I returned this set to Kay's and am in the process of finding a better stone at a better price.

I do believe some Leo's can be much nicer than the one I purchased, however, I believe they are all overpriced. My recommendation to anyone looking at this brand is to research reputable jewelers in the area that offer a GIA cert and just see the difference in cost and quality.

I hope this is helpful

[LaurieH]

VERY! Thank you for sharing your experience. This is a great example of why I tend to try to steer people away from the signature cuts, because you're paying a huge premium for the name and not necessarily getting a better diamond. Not to say that this is always the case, because I'm sure they cut some higher quality stones, too, but it seems (at least to me) that a lot of the times they're selecting diamonds that would otherwise have a hard time moving for what they are, and cut them just so that the surface can look nicer, but ignore that a lot of the beauty of a diamond comes from how the light performs inside of it, and they're really side-stepping that altogether.

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, but I'm glad that you were able to return what you purchased and I hope you have MUCH better luck second time around!

[denverappraiser]

Another poster who went back a week after the fact and deleted the original post. That's 2 in a week. Bizzare. Any idea what's going on?

[davidelevi]

nancial - thank you very much on behalf of all other posters and readers. This is precisely the sort of post that I wish more people were ready to put up. At least you have the option of returning and getting a refund, and your next ring is going to be much better - let us know if we can help in getting you to pick a nice stone and setting.

Neil - don't know, but it's pretty unusual.

Hermann/Laurie - would it make sense to have something like a time lock on posts, so that people can edit to their heart's content for an hour, but then they can no longer edit or delete posts?

[LaurieH]

Yeah...that's pretty crazy. I wonder why they did that. I figured the first person maybe got in a tizzy b/c they didn't like what they were hearing, or something, but this one...I'm at a loss...

I don't think the edit function should be frozen or anything like that, b/c think how sometimes folks have been away for a day or so before coming back and reading responses, and we've asked them to add information or corrections to their original post... I dunno...i hope it doesn't become a trend though. Not that locking down something like that is something I'm empowered to do, so it'd be up to the big guy to figure out if something like that would be possible if he saw fit.

Anyway...thanks again for sharing, nancial

[nancial]

I am glad it could be helpful. Thank you Davidelevi for the offer to help pick out a new stone... an since you offered... I would like to ask an opinion.

I am looking at another stone. I am doubtful that I have all the info you need, as I am not sure what that info in total would be. The stone is 1.01CT, round cut, Triple Excellent rating, SI1 and color is I The stone is GIA certified. The price on this stone is $5970.00. I don't know much else that would be important to convey. He (the jeweler) did show me the one inclusion he noted, and it is off to the side, and there were no others. I am not sure how important it is that it is not in the center. Anyway, I was told this price was a good deal. I am not trying to be skeptical, but I am out of my realm here and don't want to be "taken" again. He did urge me to look at other stones that were very nice and less money, so I didn't feel that he was "trying to make a sale" but this itself could be a technique to make people feel comfortable. I have no reason to distrust what he said, but since you offered to help, I hope you don't mind I am asking..

Thank you for any help, you can provide.

[davidelevi]

Laurie - if people need to add info, they should do so in a new post, possibly quoting the original. That's the way things work out in a normal conversation; you don't go back and "presciently" add the information required. Think of this as a dialogue:

OP: I am looking at this diamond, G/VS1, 1.20 ct, and am wondering if $9000 is a good price
DR regular: Who is calling it G/VS1, and what is the shape and cut grade?
OP: It has a GIA report, it is round and the cut grade is Very Good

versus:

OP: I am looking at this round diamond, G/VS1, 1.20 ct, and am wondering if $9000 is a good price. It is graded by GIA as Very Good cut.
DR regular: Who is calling it G/VS1, and what is the shape and cut grade?
Another poster: Uh? Are you guys on dope or something?

not to mention that the wholesale deletion of posts is even more disruptive to people trying to understand the flow.

[davidelevi]

nancial: it is no trouble at all.

The price sounds reasonable, if slightly higher than what you may find from an online vendor for a similar stone. This is also reasonable; a store has higher overheads. Even if you have no intention of buying from any of the vendors advertising, use the Diamond Finder (link at the top of the page) to check prices for different grades, sizes and shapes; at the very least it gives you something to base your bargaining on!

Other information that would be good to have: the diamond's proportions (cut angles, table, depth, crown/pavillion height, girdle thickness) and whether it shows any fluorescence are interesting to know. Direct visual examination (aka seeing the diamond) is more important than any of these - GIA "Excellent" cut covers a pretty wide ground, allowing stones with different looks to have the same grade. None of them will be in any way bad, but you may well prefer one to the other. The cut estimator software on the GIA site (https://www.gia.edu/facetware/) is another thing you may want to look at to understand which parameters are influencing the cut grade most.

Inclusions: an inclusion directly under the table is likely to be more easily seen - think of each facet as a window to the inside of the stone, and the table is the largest of all of these windows. To the side it may even be hidden under a prong. Don't necessarily rely on the jeweller's word for this being the only inclusion - that's what the plot diagrams on the GIA report are for: to help you find and identify the inclusions. However, do not assume that because a plot shows a lot of inclusions that stone is necessarily "bad" - visibility is not taken at all into account in the plotting, so a stone with many difficult to see inclusions has a very busy plot, but a stone with one highly visible inclusion has just that - in reality, you will see the latter but not the former.

Having said that, for your budget you should be able to get something perfectly eye-clean. Which brings me to a question: how important is it to you that the stone is heavier than 1.00 carats? Would you be happy to trade off that against higher colour or clarity - with the proviso that to a casual glance the upgrade will not be all that visible - or a truly top-of-the-line cut, which will be visible?

[nancial]

thank you Davidelevi,
I have attached a copy of the GIA report of this stone. I don't know what the other measurements mean, so I figured I would just post this report. Any feedback would be VERY appreciated...
To answer your question, no, I am not committed to anything of a specific weight. Actually, this jeweler did reference that and stated that if I didn't need to be at a 1CT it would drop off a price of a nice stone, just for being slightly less in weight. I did think this stone looked nice, and I don't mind paying a fair price for a nice stone. I just don't want to be told I am getting a "deal" when I am in fact not - much like the Leo experience. I really appreciate the help!

davidelevi, on 11 May 2011 - 09:42 PM, said:

nancial: it is no trouble at all.

The price sounds reasonable, if slightly higher than what you may find from an online vendor for a similar stone. This is also reasonable; a store has higher overheads. Even if you have no intention of buying from any of the vendors advertising, use the Diamond Finder (link at the top of the page) to check prices for different grades, sizes and shapes; at the very least it gives you something to base your bargaining on!

Other information that would be good to have: the diamond's proportions (cut angles, table, depth, crown/pavillion height, girdle thickness) and whether it shows any fluorescence are interesting to know. Direct visual examination (aka seeing the diamond) is more important than any of these - GIA "Excellent" cut covers a pretty wide ground, allowing stones with different looks to have the same grade. None of them will be in any way bad, but you may well prefer one to the other. The cut estimator software on the GIA site ([url="https://www.gia.edu/facetware/"][url]https://www.gia.edu/facetware/[/url][/url]) is another thing you may want to look at to understand which parameters are influencing the cut grade most.

Inclusions: an inclusion directly under the table is likely to be more easily seen - think of each facet as a window to the inside of the stone, and the table is the largest of all of these windows. To the side it may even be hidden under a prong. Don't necessarily rely on the jeweller's word for this being the only inclusion - that's what the plot diagrams on the GIA report are for: to help you find and identify the inclusions. However, do not assume that because a plot shows a lot of inclusions that stone is necessarily "bad" - visibility is not taken at all into account in the plotting, so a stone with many difficult to see inclusions has a very busy plot, but a stone with one highly visible inclusion has just that - in reality, you will see the latter but not the former.

Having said that, for your budget you should be able to get something perfectly eye-clean. Which brings me to a question: how important is it to you that the stone is heavier than 1.00 carats? Would you be happy to trade off that against higher colour or clarity - with the proviso that to a casual glance the upgrade will not be all that visible - or a truly top-of-the-line cut, which will be visible?

[nancial]

Sorry, I guess I can't attach this file for some reason..?

Anyway, here is some additional information:

Measurements: 6.38 - 6.42 x4mm
Flourescence: Medium Blue
Additional twinning wisps are not shown
Surface Graining is not Shown:
Girdle: Medium to slightly thick (faceted) 3.5%

webkit-fake-url://6129E0AF-6225-4A7D-9D98-8043F13C684C/image.tiff

nancial, on 12 May 2011 - 08:47 AM, said:

thank you Davidelevi,
I have attached a copy of the GIA report of this stone. I don't know what the other measurements mean, so I figured I would just post this report. Any feedback would be VERY appreciated...
To answer your question, no, I am not committed to anything of a specific weight. Actually, this jeweler did reference that and stated that if I didn't need to be at a 1CT it would drop off a price of a nice stone, just for being slightly less in weight. I did think this stone looked nice, and I don't mind paying a fair price for a nice stone. I just don't want to be told I am getting a "deal" when I am in fact not - much like the Leo experience. I really appreciate the help!

davidelevi, on 11 May 2011 - 09:42 PM, said:

nancial: it is no trouble at all.

The price sounds reasonable, if slightly higher than what you may find from an online vendor for a similar stone. This is also reasonable; a store has higher overheads. Even if you have no intention of buying from any of the vendors advertising, use the Diamond Finder (link at the top of the page) to check prices for different grades, sizes and shapes; at the very least it gives you something to base your bargaining on!

Other information that would be good to have: the diamond's proportions (cut angles, table, depth, crown/pavillion height, girdle thickness) and whether it shows any fluorescence are interesting to know. Direct visual examination (aka seeing the diamond) is more important than any of these - GIA "Excellent" cut covers a pretty wide ground, allowing stones with different looks to have the same grade. None of them will be in any way bad, but you may well prefer one to the other. The cut estimator software on the GIA site ([url="https://www.gia.edu/facetware/"][url]https://www.gia.edu/facetware/[/url][/url]) is another thing you may want to look at to understand which parameters are influencing the cut grade most.

Inclusions: an inclusion directly under the table is likely to be more easily seen - think of each facet as a window to the inside of the stone, and the table is the largest of all of these windows. To the side it may even be hidden under a prong. Don't necessarily rely on the jeweller's word for this being the only inclusion - that's what the plot diagrams on the GIA report are for: to help you find and identify the inclusions. However, do not assume that because a plot shows a lot of inclusions that stone is necessarily "bad" - visibility is not taken at all into account in the plotting, so a stone with many difficult to see inclusions has a very busy plot, but a stone with one highly visible inclusion has just that - in reality, you will see the latter but not the former.

Having said that, for your budget you should be able to get something perfectly eye-clean. Which brings me to a question: how important is it to you that the stone is heavier than 1.00 carats? Would you be happy to trade off that against higher colour or clarity - with the proviso that to a casual glance the upgrade will not be all that visible - or a truly top-of-the-line cut, which will be visible?

[nancial]

SO sorry again - I pasted a picture but it did not come out either, I apologize for this while I get used to this site...
The other measurements are: table 57%, depth 62.5%
not sure what else I should provide - thanks again!

nancial, on 12 May 2011 - 08:55 AM, said:

Sorry, I guess I can't attach this file for some reason..?

Anyway, here is some additional information:

Measurements: 6.38 - 6.42 x4mm
Flourescence: Medium Blue
Additional twinning wisps are not shown
Surface Graining is not Shown:
Girdle: Medium to slightly thick (faceted) 3.5%

webkit-fake-url://6129E0AF-6225-4A7D-9D98-8043F13C684C/image.tiff

nancial, on 12 May 2011 - 08:47 AM, said:

thank you Davidelevi,
I have attached a copy of the GIA report of this stone. I don't know what the other measurements mean, so I figured I would just post this report. Any feedback would be VERY appreciated...
To answer your question, no, I am not committed to anything of a specific weight. Actually, this jeweler did reference that and stated that if I didn't need to be at a 1CT it would drop off a price of a nice stone, just for being slightly less in weight. I did think this stone looked nice, and I don't mind paying a fair price for a nice stone. I just don't want to be told I am getting a "deal" when I am in fact not - much like the Leo experience. I really appreciate the help!

davidelevi, on 11 May 2011 - 09:42 PM, said:

nancial: it is no trouble at all.

The price sounds reasonable, if slightly higher than what you may find from an online vendor for a similar stone. This is also reasonable; a store has higher overheads. Even if you have no intention of buying from any of the vendors advertising, use the Diamond Finder (link at the top of the page) to check prices for different grades, sizes and shapes; at the very least it gives you something to base your bargaining on!

Other information that would be good to have: the diamond's proportions (cut angles, table, depth, crown/pavillion height, girdle thickness) and whether it shows any fluorescence are interesting to know. Direct visual examination (aka seeing the diamond) is more important than any of these - GIA "Excellent" cut covers a pretty wide ground, allowing stones with different looks to have the same grade. None of them will be in any way bad, but you may well prefer one to the other. The cut estimator software on the GIA site ([url="https://www.gia.edu/facetware/"][url]https://www.gia.edu/facetware/[/url][/url]) is another thing you may want to look at to understand which parameters are influencing the cut grade most.

Inclusions: an inclusion directly under the table is likely to be more easily seen - think of each facet as a window to the inside of the stone, and the table is the largest of all of these windows. To the side it may even be hidden under a prong. Don't necessarily rely on the jeweller's word for this being the only inclusion - that's what the plot diagrams on the GIA report are for: to help you find and identify the inclusions. However, do not assume that because a plot shows a lot of inclusions that stone is necessarily "bad" - visibility is not taken at all into account in the plotting, so a stone with many difficult to see inclusions has a very busy plot, but a stone with one highly visible inclusion has just that - in reality, you will see the latter but not the former.

Having said that, for your budget you should be able to get something perfectly eye-clean. Which brings me to a question: how important is it to you that the stone is heavier than 1.00 carats? Would you be happy to trade off that against higher colour or clarity - with the proviso that to a casual glance the upgrade will not be all that visible - or a truly top-of-the-line cut, which will be visible?

[LaurieH]

It doesn't sound to me like this is a bad choice at all, but if you were to drop to a .9x you would save a significant amount of money and get very close to the same size diamond appearance-wise. There are "magic numbers" within the industry because of the relative increase in rarity (which obviously becomes more so the larger you get) including the .25, .50, .75, .90, 1ct, etc.. If you were to, say, open your searches up to .95-.99, you could save a lot or possibly be able to move up in Color or Clarity for the same money.

Btw...that brings me to another thought that I think was mentioned not too long ago, but Hermann--where do we stand with being able to set upper and lower limits for price in our Diamond Finder searches? is that possible--or could it be?

[davidelevi]

Nancial - if you have the GIA report number, we may be able to check the report out through GIA.

So far, no red flags; depending on what you want, I think you have many choices: go slightly down in size (not to any visible extent, really), but up on colour and clarity, or stay where you are, and enjoy the bragging rights of saying "it's over 1 carat". Whatever you do, don't skimp on cut, and above all buy something that you love!

[nancial]

Hi Davidelevi and Laurie - thank you both for your quick response. The GIA report number is: 2116836737. After review, I guess this is my ultimate question - is this ring at a cost of $5900 a good deal or a fair price, or even slightly higher than a fair price. I like the stone very much, and if it is in fact a "good deal" I will continue with this ring in a setting a chose. However, since I am not married to the idea of having a 1CT or plus I would be open to looking at other things, and would most likely do so, if this was anything less than a "good deal". The reason I chose this stone was because I was told, based on others that I had looked at that were less money that this was a good value for the money compared to some others... Make sense?
Thank you again - you guys have been wonderful!

davidelevi, on 12 May 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:

Nancial - if you have the GIA report number, we may be able to check the report out through GIA.

So far, no red flags; depending on what you want, I think you have many choices: go slightly down in size (not to any visible extent, really), but up on colour and clarity, or stay where you are, and enjoy the bragging rights of saying "it's over 1 carat". Whatever you do, don't skimp on cut, and above all buy something that you love!

[davidelevi]

Um - let me get one thing straight. Is the $5900 for the diamond or for a ring? If for a ring, what does the ring look like? In what metal is it?

Assuming it is only for the stone, and assuming the inclusions are not visible and the cut is up to scratch, it is a reasonable price - one of the reasons why it's priced relatively low is the fluorescence; it won't make a jot of difference to the looks, but the market marks it down. FWIW, the various proportions from the report seem OK but not the very very very best, however what matters is what you like, not what the report says.

Is it a good deal? It is not a rip off, but you could definitely get something different for the same money - whether different = "better" depends on what you value. As to whether it is a better deal than a cheaper stone, it depends on why the cheaper stone is cheaper and the value you place on those attributes; some people will agonise over a 0.1° in pavillion angle or whether VVS2 is sufficiently not included, and some people will buy a fracture-filled stone cut by a drunken monkey on a cloudy night because it's big and it sparkles (sometimes).

[nancial]

See this is what is so hard... All the different aspects to a novice like myself, make it hard to make the right choice. I have no idea if the girdle is more important than the pavillion angle or anything much outside of the basic 4Cs... I understand that it is the whole physics of the cut and the degrees and the light and the quality and all that in combination that produces the brilliance. I admire you all for being able to understand how all these aspects work together to produce either a "very desirable stone" or the contrary. I very much appreciate the assistance. It would take me a very long time at best to have the level of knowledge you folks have, and appreciate the help.

The price is for the just stone - now here is where I am growing concerned: I was told this price of $5900 was a "great deal" for this type of stone - most of the rational based on cut and degrees and all the terms that are newer to me than the 4Cs which I get... I was told that this stone could easily appraise for 10K (which I appreciate is subjective anyway) and that their retail price is $7900 - there is my deal - I was to be getting a 2K savings off of a stone that I was told was priced fair at the $7900.
At the risk of sounding too basic - this is what matters to me - this is a gift from my family - my three small children and husband. Hubby knows even less about jewelry ( if you can believe it )and wanted me to find something "perfect" within a set range of cost. Obviously, I want to get the best ring for the cost since this is a one time deal - I am not one that will be dropping this kind of money on myself again for jewerely. It just want to be able to look down at it and be happy and feel good about it. With the Leo, when I looked down at the ring, I felt taken and that I had wasted my family's money and been "bamboozeled"

I just want a pretty ring that sparkles and is worth the money I spent. A good deal is even better, but again, I am willing to pay fair cost for a good product.

I know so much of this is subjective in looking at the actual stone, and appreciate the continued advise. May I pose the question to you? If you had this stone presented to you (as on paper)_for $5900 would you buy it?

davidelevi, on 12 May 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

Um - let me get one thing straight. Is the $5900 for the diamond or for a ring? If for a ring, what does the ring look like? In what metal is it?

Assuming it is only for the stone, and assuming the inclusions are not visible and the cut is up to scratch, it is a reasonable price - one of the reasons why it's priced relatively low is the fluorescence; it won't make a jot of difference to the looks, but the market marks it down. FWIW, the various proportions from the report seem OK but not the very very very best, however what matters is what you like, not what the report says.

Is it a good deal? It is not a rip off, but you could definitely get something different for the same money - whether different = "better" depends on what you value. As to whether it is a better deal than a cheaper stone, it depends on why the cheaper stone is cheaper and the value you place on those attributes; some people will agonise over a 0.1° in pavillion angle or whether VVS2 is sufficiently not included, and some people will buy a fracture-filled stone cut by a drunken monkey on a cloudy night because it's big and it sparkles (sometimes).