10 replies to this topic

[lacosted33]

I am looking to buy a diamond for an engagement ring, I have the setting picked out and I know the style (asscher) of diamond I want but Im not sure what I should be looking for exactly. I have found a diamond I really like from a Jeweler located 6 hours north of me but Im skeptical. The diamond is a Good cut, "I" color and VVS2. The biggest drawback is it seems fairly cheap for being a 1.300 carat diamond, it has been graded by the EGL as well. They are listing the diamond right at 3,000? Is this a great deal or is it a possible scam? If I need to tell you the Jeweler's name I will but for now I dont want to put in any shameless plugs

[davidelevi]

If it is any consolation, you are not the only one that's overwhelmed. There is a lot of stuff out there, but relatively little structured and clearly presented information. Let's see if we can help!

Now, to your diamond. Couple of red flags. First of all, the EGL report. There's many EGL labs, and while EGL USA at least tries to be serious, EGL Israel is not even trying...

The issue is not so much that they are soft on grading (though they generally are), but that you don't know how soft they are in any one case. The I/VVS2 could be a J/VVS2, or an I/VS2, or even a K/VS2 or an M/VS2. You are relying on the dealer to tell you what it is, since the report is unreliable. And there's big money at stake. A properly graded 1.30 I/VVS2 is probably somewhere between $5.5 and 6.5k. An M/VS2 is below $3000.

Second red flag - "Good cut". According to whom? EGL does not (as far as I know) grade emerald cuts for cut quality. So you are back to relying on the dealer. But how did he get this grade? What scale is he using? What parameters make it "Good" vs. "Very good"?

Before you spend a day in the car, I would suggest the following:

1. Ask for further information - photographs, a video, a comparison with other stones.
2. Explore other dealers. Don't focus so much on the stones they have; in many cases they can call in stones from other dealers or manufacturers. Focus on whether the dealer him/herself is willing and able to help you and is interested in getting a happy customer, not just a sale.
3. Use online sites that have pictures and videos of well cut Asscher diamonds (or indeed other shapes) to inform yourself on what to look for.

[denverappraiser]

'Scam' is a pretty harsh word but I see two big zingers to watch out for. The first is EGL. Do a bit of homework into that but they are not using the same approach to grading and they often disagee with GIA and AGS on the same stone by several grades. If you see something as a cheap price, that's more of a clue that the grading is lacking than it is of a bargain.

The second is the claim of 'good' cut. It may be true, but there's no agreed upon scale that's being used you you really don't know much from this claim. It's sort of like a car dealer telling you it's a 'creampuff'.

6 hours each way to get to a decent jeweler is kind of a long drive. Where are you?

ETA: I was writing at the same time as Davide and we've got very similar comments. Hmm. What does that tell you?

Edited by denverappraiser, 02 March 2011 - 01:38 PM.

[Britani17]

I would be concerned on the EGL grading report. That lab is not very consistent in grading. We have one that is an actual 1.27ct. VS2 E asscher with a GIA report and excellent polish and symmetry available for $8475. It is a well cut asscher as you can see from the photo. That tells me that the one you were considering may be too good to be true as far as price for quality goes. If you want any more options for asschers you can email Jan at info@dbof.com and she can work up some prospects for you. The link below includes the lab report, additional photos and as an added bonus a live light performance analysis.

http://www.dbof.com/...-1-27-ct-e-vs2/

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[lacosted33]

It tells me that my initial thoughts that this diamond is probably too good to be true (price wise) are most likely correct. I live in Jacksonville, FL and the Jeweler is in Atlanta, GA. I have a friend who bought from the same place in the past and he said he had a good experience and was very happy with his purchase, but I have done my research on the place and for every 3 people that had a great experience there was 1 person who had a terrible time and recieved sub par customer service, I would be that one guy.

[LaurieH]

Since you're talking Atlanta, I have a guess, but when you talk about track record, it kinda knocks my guess out (or at least I'd think so...) so I'll have to continue to wonder

As far as your questions--I'm with the above posts about EGL--the grading is lax and you can expect that you're at least 1-2 Color grades off, and anywhere from 1/2 to a full Clarity grade off--they grade much more generously than GIA, so it's much harder to compare apples to apples. Some folks will say they can be even further off, but what I mentioned is from my own experience. EGL*USA *will* be closer to GIA, but it's still not GIA.

As far as putting them in a "Cut Grade" type category, most dealers that I'm familiar with *if* they assign such a thing, will do these for fancy cuts based on, from my knowledge, consideration for what are considered ideal ranges for things like table size, pavillion and crown angles, etc, for those particular shapes. However, since they don't have an OFFICIAL cut grade, it can come off as rather arbitrary, and sometimes you're left trusting their judgment, as it's done by looking at numbers alone, not necessarily the stone itself and its light performance. SO, here's my educated advice on shopping for an Asscher:

Make sure you look at ratio: you want something as close to square (1:1) as possible. Up to about a 1:1.04 CAN look square to the unaided eye, esp if the diamond is set north-south, but it's really dependent upon the viewer--I can spot a 1:03 as out-of-square from a mile. But that's me. I'm not your average bear on that I would say the important things to consider are Clarity (because it's a very windowed cut and inclusions will be more noticeable than in a busier cut, like a Princess) Symmetry (for the sparkle factor). You cannot tell, face-up, the difference to the naked eye between a VVS1 and a VS2, so I'd say if you have it in your budget, put the money into the Color. That said, other folks who have been around here a while and have read my posts, know that I'm a big fan of the GVS2 as a good, middle-of-the-road choice, in general. However, you can go as low as J color and have a diamond that faces-up white and not sweat it. Can you tell the difference between a G and a J? Sure. Can you tell a big difference when set, standing alone (ie not being compared side-by-side to a G)? Maybe. It might appear a little "warm" but it won't look YELLOW. Now when I talk about Color and Clarity, I'm talking about by GIA standards, because they're very consistent.

I'd suggst maybe poking around with the Diamond Finder tool (above) and plugging in some basic stats, and see how the results come up. Play around with them and change them up til you find things that are in your ballpark. I HIGHLY advise trading down in size if it means you can trade up in Color or Clarity if you need to stay within the same budget, esp if it means you can get a GIA graded diamond. Does this mean there are no GORGEOUS EGL graded Asscher cut diamonds out there? Heck no--I'm sure there's plenty. BUT, sight-unseen, it's much harder to know what you're getting if you're shopping that cert.

BTW...providing that the jeweler in question is NOT the one that I am thinking of, if you were traveling to Atlanta to view stones, I would be happy to come with you as your advocate, if you would like.

[davidelevi]

Just one last thought on reports. Actually make that two.

1. The report is first and foremost a marketing tool for the seller. The seller chooses the lab, and the type of report. And sellers are not naive. You can rest assured that if the seller thought the stone could be sold for more money with a GIA or AGS report, it would have one.

If a diamond is sold without a GIA or AGS report, ask the seller why; cost and time are not valid reasons in my view - GIA publishes its fees and turnaround time on its website (http://www.gia.edu/l...fees/index.html); take a look at what they are for yourself, and bear in mind EGL is not free or instantaneous either.

2. In some respect, without a reliable report, price becomes your best signal as to what the diamond is. If it trades at the price of something that is six grades off, that's what it probably is. The risk is that again it's the seller that sets the price. And it's still the seller that thinks he/she can make more money with an EGL "bargain" than a GIA "low spec" stone, so the seller will price it at a premium to what he/she thinks the stone really is, disregarding the report. Endless gaming...

In short - avoid formulas ("take away one grade here and another there"), and if you are really keen on a stone not graded by a reliable lab (AGS and GIA most likely), get it seen by someone you can trust. Even insist on the dealer regrading the stone through GIA; some will, but a lot won't. It tells you more about the dealer than it does about the stone.

Edited by davidelevi, 02 March 2011 - 11:55 PM.

[lacosted33]

Laurie,
The Jeweler is Solomon Brothers in Buckhead. Your offer goes above and beyond everything I expected from this site Thank you all for your input and I think it boils down to 2 choices for me, 1. drive up to ATL and check out this specific diamond and some of their other options, or 2. go back to the drawing board all together and find a some new places to search for a diamond.

[LaurieH]

You're more than welcome. I've actually wondered if there wasn't a market for something like this as a side job, having been on both sides of the table myself And no, it was not who I was thinking of so the offer is still open if you do find yourself in town...I'm not far from SB. And chances are, you can ask them to call in multiple stones to look at if you do decide to go that route. If you wind up back at the drawing board, all of us will be happy to help ya out

Good luck either way!

[Britani17]

Well, Jacksonville is only 2 1/12 to 3 hours from West Melbourne, Florida. We have a few asschers you could look at to compare and they are all well cut, bright looking asschers. You would not be wasting your drive time to look at asschers that do not even come close to meeting your expectations, which I imagine that original asscher you were looking at might do. Just a thought.

[denverappraiser]

I'm a big fan of shopping with a jeweler you trust but, I must say, 12 hours of driving is quite a load of overhead. I'm pretty sure Solomon has an Internet division for example. They may be able to ship the stone to you and you can look at it in your own environment to see if you like it. Even if you don't, the FedEx fees there and back seem like a lot less trouble than the drive. You may even consider scheduling it to order in the stone and then do the drive to Britani's place so you can compare it with hers, live and in person. I imagine both vendors would be fine with that, you get the best of both worlds and you save 7 hours of drive time.

Edited by denverappraiser, 03 March 2011 - 02:01 PM.