22 replies to this topic

[ms.mnguyen]

Hello,

My boyfriend and I are ready to take our relationship to the next step however, we hit a wall when it comes to the engagement ring. I am not too familiar with diamond so I was hoping I can get a second opinion (other than the person who is trying to sell me the diamond)

Here is what I am looking for in a diamon:

A round cut diamond between .9 to 1 carat. In a platinum solitary setting. G graded (or above) VS2 (or above) Very Good to Ideal Cut. No Culet. Ideal to Excellent symmetry. Depth % 59-61. Table% 52-57 and Finally Girdle: Medium.

Question 1: Every time I went to a store and was ask what I am looking for: I told them the 4C's and immediately they told me I shouldn't caught up in the "specs" and proceed to show me lower clarity diamond. Are they right? Should I settle for the lower clarity and not as good of a cut like they suggested? (Yes I can see the different between the two diamonds. Also, I am not interested in the LEO diamond which is basically a lower specs diamond with more facets to let more light in)

Question 2: Is there really REAL benefits to buy designer diamond like Tolkowsky etc? Is there better buy back or higher rate in term of trade in or buy back if my diamond is a 'designer' brand vs just a regular diamond with the same specs? The only designer diamond that I can really see the different compare to other is the heart on fire diamond which create hearts and spears shape if you look under the magnifier the designer provide. Tolkowsky showed the same hearts & spears shape too but Tolkowsky didn't shine or sparkle as much as the heart on fire. When I held the Tolkowsky vs the same specs diamond (with very good cut) I couldn't really see THAT much of a different. With the heart on fire I can definitely tell the difference.

Question 3: Fluorescence...If I understand it correctly it is the color your diamond give of under certain uv wave then as long as you are under normal everyday light then this shouldn't play a big part right? How important is this? Is it ok if I sacrifice the fluorescence to save a few bucks? I kind of like the idea my diamond give off/change color under a uv light.

Question 4: Can you negotiated with the jeweler on prices? If you can how flexible is the price?? Any tips? Suggestion?

Question 5: Should I buy from a local store or a chain store? The only benefit I see from buy at a chain store is that they have many locations so I won't have to worry about where to take my ring to clean and inspect. (We haven't found a permanent place we would like to settle in yet...all depend on a job market)

Thank you for taking the time reading this lengthy question. Any more tips or advices is greatly appreciated.

[davidelevi]

ms.mnguyen, on 28 February 2011 - 09:18 PM, said:

Hello,

My boyfriend and I are ready to take our relationship to the next step however, we hit a wall when it comes to the engagement ring. I am not too familiar with diamond so I was hoping I can get a second opinion (other than the person who is trying to sell me the diamond)

Here is what I am looking for in a diamond:

A round cut diamond between .9 to 1 carat. In a platinum solitary setting. G graded (or above) VS2 (or above) Very Good to Ideal Cut. No Culet. Ideal to Excellent symmetry. Depth % 59-61. Table% 52-57 and Finally Girdle: Medium.

Welcome to DiamondReview, and congratulations on your impending engagement! As far as your specs are concerned, they are eminently sensible, but I would recommend that you replace your requirements for table and depth with a cut grade by GIA (Excellent or Very Good) or AGS (0/Ideal to 2/Very Good), since it's a much more reliable overall guide to cut quality. Be wary of other labs - and not just for cut grades.

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Question 1: Every time I went to a store and was ask what I am looking for: I told them the 4C's and immediately they told me I shouldn't caught up in the "specs" and proceed to show me lower clarity diamond. Are they right? Should I settle for the lower clarity and not as good of a cut like they suggested? (Yes I can see the different between the two diamonds. Also, I am not interested in the LEO diamond which is basically a lower specs diamond with more facets to let more light in)

Yes they are right that you should not get caught up in the specs. At the end of the day, what matters is what you like, not what is written on a lab report. From that point of view, do take your specs - at least at this stage - as rough guidelines rather than absolute boundaries. If you are not an expert in diamonds, use this time to explore different colours, clarity, cut grades, sizes etc.; much of what is written on a report is actually not visible in real life (e.g. difference in clarity between IF and VS1 or even lower), and for some things, like colour, it's more a matter of personal preference than absolute beauty: many people prefer the softer H-J whites to the cold white of D-F. And a lot of people would rather have a larger diamond with lower - but eye-clean - clarity and some colour than a small(er) D-IF.

No, they are wrong in suggesting that you should compromise on aspects that you are not comfortable with just because this is what they have in store. FWIW, my personal list of criteria when shopping for an important diamond is: crystal/transparency/gemminess - this is distinct from clarity and not graded anywhere on any report, but it is in my view the most important aspect in making a stone beautiful; cut (proportions and finish); size; clarity. Colour doesn't come into it because I really think it's a matter of taste and what one is trying to do with the stone - in some cases, nothing but high white will do, and in others a golden tint is exactly right.

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Question 2: Is there really REAL benefits to buy designer diamond like Tolkowsky etc? Is there better buy back or higher rate in term of trade in or buy back if my diamond is a 'designer' brand vs just a regular diamond with the same specs? The only designer diamond that I can really see the different compare to other is the heart on fire diamond which create hearts and spears shape if you look under the magnifier the designer provide. Tolkowsky showed the same hearts & spears shape too but Tolkowsky didn't shine or sparkle as much as the heart on fire. When I held the Tolkowsky vs the same specs diamond (with very good cut) I couldn't really see THAT much of a different. With the heart on fire I can definitely tell the difference.

In general, no. There is no benefit in terms of resale value in buying a branded, custom cut diamond (e.g. Leo, Gabrielle, Ashoka). If anything, the opposite is true since there is a smaller market for them and buyers don't have as much experience in valuing them. Branded, traditional cut diamonds (e.g. some Tolkowsky, ACA, HoF, etc.) may have some resale benefit, but these are typically dependent on the retailer, rather than the diamond itself. For example, some retailers offer a 70%, 80% or even higher guaranteed cash-in value at any time after purchase on certain brands/categories of diamonds. Whether that guarantee is worth the premium you pay for the stone is entirely up to you and your circumstances.

Some brands - like HoF - have created and sustained a reputation for superior and consistent cut quality. You can find diamonds that are as well cut, but it's going to require time and effort. Buying the brand is an effective shortcut to all the work required. Again, whether the premium charged is worth it, depends on you.

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Question 3: Fluorescence...If I understand it correctly it is the color your diamond give of under certain uv wave then as long as you are under normal everyday light then this shouldn't play a big part right? How important is this? Is it ok if I sacrifice the fluorescence to save a few bucks? I kind of like the idea my diamond give off/change color under a uv light.

You understand it correctly; the only issue is that some (but not all) strongly fluorescent diamonds can look milky or hazy in natural lighting. The effect is easily noticeable, and although it happens in a small percentage of stones with fluorescence, it causes the price of all fluorescent stones to drop (go figure the so called "rational decision makers" beloved of classical economists). If you aren't bothered and like the idea of fluorescence, go for it. If you buy sight unseen, make sure that you have a good return period for the stone, and have it examined by your expert to check that the fluorescence is not causing any undesirable effect.

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Question 4: Can you negotiate with the jeweler on prices? If you can how flexible is the price?? Any tips? Suggestion?

Yes, you can always negotiate. At worst, the jeweller will say "no", but will still be more than willing to sell you the stone (and anything else) at his price. The rules in negotiating for jewellery are no different than those negotiating for anything else - generally the jeweller will have more room to negotiate if you buy the stone and the ring together than separately, if you buy a premium priced item than a bottom-of-the-line one, if you buy something that he has got a bargain on himself than something that he buys at a fixed, premium price, if you buy something that he has had for a long time in stock than something he has on memo and is selling like hot cakes. In some cases, I "got away" with a 40% discount on the (apparently reasonable) asking price; in others, I had to go back and buy an item at a 30% premium to the original price six years later. YMMV.

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Question 5: Should I buy from a local store or a chain store? The only benefit I see from buy at a chain store is that they have many locations so I won't have to worry about where to take my ring to clean and inspect. (We haven't found a permanent place we would like to settle in yet...all depend on a job market)

Thank you for taking the time reading this lengthy question. Any more tips or advices is greatly appreciated.

Ah, well. I don't like chains, so I'm a bit biased in answering this. I agree with you that there are very few benefits in going to a chain store, particularly for this type of purchase. I would encourage you to consider the internet as a channel; many "local stores" are actively marketing their goods through the internet, and some of them are very very good indeed. You will get access to a much broader market, often at highly competitive prices.

Feel free to come back with more questions and/or if you find diamonds that you think you may be interested in, we are generally not shy in giving our opinion.

Edited by davidelevi, 01 March 2011 - 03:02 AM.

[crystal.barba]

Well that's really a big post, you've put forth a lot of questions, but i can help you out only in few sections.
Firstly If you are looking for a ring for your boy-friend i would like to suggest you a heart shape diamond ring or a Asscher cut diamond.
Secondly jewelers do negotiate, but its even better if you check out some sites online, there are thousands, just compare the prices according to your budget, you can also decide what sort of actual ring or band you are looking for the next time you visit any jeweler.
I am suggesting you one site [link removed]
There are many more like James Allen, Tiffany etc check all and compare and go with the best.
Enjoy

[davidelevi]

Would you mind telling us what's your relationship to the site you have linked and why you are recommending them in particular?

And incidentally - why would the OP be interested in a heart or a square emerald cut when she is clearly stating she is looking for rounds?

Edited by davidelevi, 01 March 2011 - 03:45 AM.

[denverappraiser]

What a terrific set of questions. I can feel your frustration. I largely agree with what Davide has written above but, as usual, I have a few things to add.

Specs.
The specs don't really drive the beauty of the stone in any very direct way but they are definitely driving the price, especially weight, clarity and color. Yes, they are important in that sense. I agree with your jeweler that you should consider pushing the boundary of your clarity and other things in order to either bump up something else or to drive down the price. By a lot, the best way to do this is in a store and by looking at REAL dimaonds. Most people start out by an Internet search for some info and then shopping with a list of specs about like what you've given that they gleaned from the Internet education. They will show up at the store with a pretty solid idea in their head of what they want. That's good for what it is but, in reality, it's not based on actual stones and often not very reliable sources. Take for example your spec of 'medium' girdle. Why did you choose this? In classic grading terms, 'thin' is the most desired and for nearly everyone it has no affect at all as long as you avoid very thin and very thick. I'm not really picking on you, I have a pretty good idea how you got this and it's also where you got the rest of your specs. There's nothing wrong with where you landed and it's not so different from where most people go but I'm not convinced you got there by a reasonable path. You may want to rethink them just as a learning exercise if nothing else. Perhaps it would be helpful to walk us through the logic that led you to this and to expand your horizons a bit. On the other hand, it's common for sales people to want to drive you down on the various grades precicely because it brings down the price and if they don't actually do that then they get to make a bigger margin. It's easy enough to check prices and I strongly encourage doing just that, but it doesn't have to be on the very first visit. Yeah, you can and should negotiate when it comes down to pricing but WHAT you want is a very different question from what you will need to pay for it.

Should you 'settle'? I don't know, that's up to you. There's a balancing act between the various attributes and the price and you have to land somewhere or you're going to have to sell your house to do the deal. Exactly where that is could, I suppose, be called settling, but I'm inclined to call it sensible shopping. If you're not impressed with the specialty cuts, simply don't buy one. They're definitely not for everybody and shopping for them is a whole additional can of worms. The extra facets DON'T 'let more light' in by the way.

Brand names and resale.
In nearly every case, no you will not see a premium on resale for the branding and in the cases where you do, like Tiffany or Cartier, the premium you get on resale is less than the premium you have to pay up front so it's no bargain. That said, reselling diamonds is a serious haircut for nearly everyone and you should NOT go into a diamond deal expecting to ever see your money again. This is not a financial investment and resale potential is, at best, a secondary consideration. Buy them because they're cool, because they make you feel loved, because you enjoy them, because they impress the neighbors, because you feel peer pressure or any variety of other good reasons, but if you're looking for a return on investment, talk to your accountant, not your jeweler.

Edited by denverappraiser, 01 March 2011 - 11:25 AM.

[LaurieH]

I agree with a lot of what the gentlemen above have said. As far as going into the store and saying "I want a diamond of this size, Color, Clarity and Cut" and being told "oh silly girl...let me tell you what you want"--VERY not cool on the seller's part. Sounds like they just want to sell their inventory, not sell you what you're looking for. Yes, I'd say don't get caught up in the exact numbers, but DO look for the Color and Clarity that you want, something that is GIA graded (so you absolutely know what you're getting) and something with AT LEAST a Very Good Cut, Polish and Symmetry--Excellent in any or all categories if you can find it in your budget.

I'd suggest staying away from the signature cuts--you're paying a premium for the name, and it sounds like you are already aware of that and prefer a really nice traditional, well-cut Round Brilliant anyway This is good, as it will give you the ability to actually compare stones from various sellers, if you come down to that.

Negotiation--you can usually find a little wiggle room if you're nice and polite and ready to walk away. It's not usually a huge difference, but maybe of you're looking for a simple solitaire setting, you could ask them if they'd include the setting for no charge or something. There's usually more wiggle room in the price of the setting than there is in the diamond, as most sellers don't have much room for mark-up if they actually want to sell the diamonds at a competitive price.

Fluorescence--I'm actually a fan of fluorescence, IF it either doesn't adversely affect the appearance of the diamond or serves to enhance it. If there is faint to medium Fluorescence, it generally doesn't affect the way a diamond looks one way or another (even in the Colorless category). Generally I advise folks to stay away from anything Med or higher in Fluor. in something in the D-F range, because the Fluorescence can interfere with the UV in daylight and give the diamond a hazy/greasy/cloudy appearance, but you can go a bit higher in Flor for something in the Near Colorless (G-J) range or lower, because it can only serve to improve the appearance, b/c most diamonds IF they fluoresce, do so in blue, and most diamonds are in the white-to-yellow range, blue cancels yellow, making the diamond look a little whiter. I think diamonds that fluoresce are kinda cool b/c not many types of gemstones display this property, and of that, not all diamonds do...so it makes it a little different and interesting. You just have to make sure you are aware of this property, or be startled if you ever see it glow when in a black-light situation It CAN also bring down the price a bit, because it is not always considered a desired characteristic, but it's really a matter of personal preference as long as it doesn't hurt the appearance.

Chain vs non-chain. Either one vs. online retailer. It really comes down to 1--Customer Service (are they listening to you and delivering what you want or are they trying to sell you what they wanna move?), 2--Comfort zone (which do you feel like you trust more, factoring the above) and 3--Budget (where are you going to find what you can afford). I personally stay away from chains, but I'm sure some are good. I prefer the more specialized service that a smaller store can potentially provide, but it's all going to depend on you.

Good luck and keep us posted on how things are going

[crystal.barba]

Well Mr. David its an obvious reason, i used to buy all kinds of diamonds from this site !.

And the reason why i suggested her a heart shape or asscher cut , is coz she's giving that ring to her bf, and it wolud be much more romantic instead of a simple round cut.
I didn't not forced her to do so!
It was just my opinion!

[LaurieH]

crystal.barba, on 03 March 2011 - 02:47 AM, said:

Well Mr. David its an obvious reason, i used to buy all kinds of diamonds from this site !.

And the reason why i suggested her a heart shape or asscher cut , is coz she's giving that ring to her bf, and it wolud be much more romantic instead of a simple round cut.
I didn't not forced her to do so!
It was just my opinion!

Where did you get that she was buying the diamond for her bf? She just said that they were ready to take the next step but were, the two of them, not super educated about how to shop for one and said the basics of what she wants in HER diamond. I'm not sure how you read that as she's giving him a diamond.

And maybe it's just me, but I don't know too many men who would wear a heart-shape diamond

[davidelevi]

Um - she is getting engaged. She isn't giving the ring; she is receiving it.

Anyways - apologies if I sounded brusque, but there's a fair amount of spamming and shilling on this and other diamond forums, so I'm a bit wary of people that come in and offer unqualified advice on the first post.

[crystal.barba]

Apologies everyone, i guess there would have been something wrong from my side, reading this post in a different manner.
Actually I'm new to this site, so don't know much.
Sorry once again.

[ms.mnguyen]

First of all I want to Thanks EVERYONE for your help. It was wonderful to get straight and honest advise specs from David and Denverappraiser and even more lovely to get a woman advise. I don't feel bad for wanting the best that I can get (of course within our budget) . Thanks Laurie.
@ Crystal: Thank you for the suggestion. The ring is for me although and I have my heart set in a round cut. Nonetheless welcome to the site.

So after reading very one posts and careful consideration we went to a couple of jeweler and Here is a little update:

I decided to go with a small jeweler instead of a chain store. I didn't like how pushy the chain store rep(s) was. I follow your advise and look at every diamond the rep was willing to show us. I compare the clarity and color and physically looking at the diamond itself. Here is what we have our eyes on

A GIA certified brilliant round cut diamond. VS2 Clarity and H color. The Cut, Symmetry and Polish all Excellent. This diamond is set in a 14K yellow gold and priced @ $7495

I would like this to be set in platinum so I believe it will drives the price up. The rep said around $1000 for a 2mm width plain band. Anyone knows how accurate does this pricing stand?

I am coming back to the jeweler to look at the ring again but I just want to run it by you guys.

P.S. I also found a wedding band that I absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE at the store so I am hoping if I purchase the engagement & wedding ring I can get the price down a little more.

[davidelevi]

Rough price of a plain solitaire setting in platinum is between $700 and $1200, so taking into account that your price already included a setting, I think you have some room to negotiate... and more so if you buy the wedding band there.

It sounds like you have found a very nice diamond - would you mind posting photos, once you get the ring?

[denverappraiser]

Don't forget that if you swap out the gold for platinum, they get to keep the gold one. Assuming it's in good condition and they can sell it to someone else, that's worth several hundred dollars.

[ms.mnguyen]

Quick Update.

The diamond is BEAUTIFUL!!!!!! I did not want to take it off. The price they quoted us was $7495 with the 14 K gold setting. They also have a sale going and they said the ring would be 10% off. HOWEVER, today when we came back they did not mention the 10% off and when we asked they tried to play it off as the $7495 is the -10% price. Red Flag?? You tell me

I also found a beautiful Simon G setting (with a wedding band). The ticket price for the setting is $995 and the wedding band is $750 both in 18K white gold. They said to get it in platinum the setting alone would cost 1800. I thinks this is a bit high.... and also he did not mention anything about subtracting the yellow gold band price. How should I approach him to negotiated the price? or about subtracting the current band price?

P.S. I'm sorry if my questions seem stupid. I just don't want to offend anyone. Thank you

[davidelevi]

Red flag? - you tell us. Genuine mistakes happen, but isn't there a sticker with the original price somewhere?

The cost for the platinum setting - assuming it's a plain 4-prong solitaire - is at the high end. You will pay a premium for a brand name (and Simon G is certainly one). My approach would be simply to tell them that if the price for the platinum setting is 1800, and they quote 995 for the 14kt, then they want $8300 for the diamond in the platinum ring. Then we talk about 10% off and any further negotiation (including the wedding band).

Not at all stupid questions; don't worry.

[ms.mnguyen]

We BROUGHT our DIAMOND!!!!! I'm supper excited and can't wait to get it back and post picture. I do have one more worry that I hope you guys can help me with. When we purchased the diamond, we only get to look at the photocopy of the GIA certificated. I asked to look at the actual certificate the jeweler said it will be send to the store from the company and that they only keep photocopy one. I'm just worry because my diamond is not laser inscribed so how would I be able to tell that the certificated matched the diamond. Is there a way to get it authenticated without having to send it back to the GIA lab? Thank you.

[denverappraiser]

It's usually pretty easy for any pro to authenticate the diamond to the cert and when you get it appraised your appraiser should have no problem. That's what the plotting diagram is for and there are lots of clues in the various other attributes. If you want an inscription, your jeweler should be able to add one fairly inexpensively but they need to do it before it's set so ask for this immediately if you want it.

It's common to have the stone travel around with a photocopy until it actually sells. The problem is that if several people look at it before it actually sells, it's possible to damage the paper of the report during the process. This way it's in perfect condition when it arrives at the final customer.

Edited by denverappraiser, 13 March 2011 - 10:21 AM.

[ms.mnguyen]

denverappraiser, on 13 March 2011 - 10:20 AM, said:

It's usually pretty easy for any pro to authenticate the diamond to the cert and when you get it appraised your appraiser should have no problem. That's what the plotting diagram is for and there are lots of clues in the various other attributes. If you want an inscription, your jeweler should be able to add one fairly inexpensively but they need to do it before it's set so ask for this immediately if you want it.

It's common to have the stone travel around with a photocopy until it actually sells. The problem is that if several people look at it before it actually sells, it's possible to damage the paper of the report during the process. This way it's in perfect condition when it arrives at the final customer.

Thank you. that make me feel much better

[ms.mnguyen]

Finally!!
Thank you everyone for helping me make this happen

[davidelevi]

Super congratulations!. It looks very nice. What did you end up doing on the setting? Platinum or white gold?