7 replies to this topic

[mrb2011]

Hi-New to the forum, but I've been reading for a few days now and learning a lot. Thanks for all the help. I'm in the market for a rb engagement diamond. I was recently sent the specs on this diamond. I'm looking for something between 2.5 to 3ct, and E-G color(on GIA standards, I realize that EGL can be 2-3 different at times). I'm more interested in color than clarity, as I have seen some really nice SI1 and 2 actually and I don't plan on having people look at this ring under a loop regularly. Anyway, do you see anything that stands out as negative about this stone? The reason I ask, is because the pricing seems to be pretty low...which I like, but it makes me cautious.

EGL USA
2.52ct
Measures- 8.79- 8.67x5.45mm
Depth- 62.6%
Table-57%
Cut Grade-Ideal
Clarity-SI2
Color-E
Florescence-None
Polish-Very Good
Symmetry-Very Good
Price-$15,900

What do you think here?

Edited by mrb2011, 01 January 2011 - 01:55 PM.

[davidelevi]

I can think of two ways of answering your question, but they amount to the same thing:

1. "Pretty low" compared to what? A GIA-graded E-SI2? No surprises there. Another EGL-graded E-SI2? Again, no surprises, given the low reliability of EGL reports, there's such a broad variation in the stones graded that some are bound to be better than others. Also, bear in mind that in diamonds - as in anything else - one gets what one pays for: running a search on the "Diamond Finder" database for 2.50-2.70/E/SI2 rounds finds 42 stones, priced from $11272 to $31468. The difference of over $20k is only minimally due to margin: quality of cut/proportions, visibility of the inclusion(s), reliability of grade, fluorescence and finish will all matter more than dealer profit. Yes, some stones will be relatively better priced, but not to the tune of $10 or $20k at a time.

2. Is there anything that stands out as negative? Yes, the EGL report. Bear in mind that there is a precise reason why that stone is being marketed with an EGL report rather than a GIA or AGS one. And it's not cost of the report (a GIA report costs $150 for a 2.00-2.99 carat stone) or timing (2-5 days at time of posting for NY and Carlsbad). Ask the vendor why they choose to have an EGL report for a high colour, borderline clarity large-ish stone, and see what they say.

Finally, one remark on colour vs clarity vs other things: cut will have a greater impact on how good (and white) the stone looks once set than either clarity or colour. And if you don't plan having people looking at the stone with a loupe to find inclusions, I guess similarly you don't plan to keep it unset so that it can be compared to colour master stones on its side against neutral background under diffused, calibrated light to detect the fine difference between an E and a G (or an H!)...

Edited by davidelevi, 02 January 2011 - 01:30 AM.

[denverappraiser]

ANYONE who is prepared to submit a $15000 stone to EGL is also prepared to submit it to GIA, AGS, IGI and any other lab out there. They CHOSE EGL-USA and they didn't do it at random. As you've noticed, there's big money at stake here. The customary reason for this decision are:

1) They were hoping for a higher grade on clarity, color or both.
2) They wanted to avoid the GIA and AGS cut grading systems.

Minor issues, like the different approach to fluorescence, symmetry/polish grading, the slightly lower prices, the faster service, and just the agreeable nature of the nice folks at EGL-USA are all handy but the the driving issue is the money, and the money is in the two items listed above.

[mrb2011]

Thanks for the good advice. I've been looking at many stones in person and I'm starting to develop a better idea now. Found this stone online, obviously, I'd have to see it and my biggest concern is the cut being "very good". But maybe there are other negatives here that stick out to you guys...perhaps the table is a little large? if so, how will that effect the look of the diamond?

GIA
3.06
H
SI2
Depth: 60.5
Table: 62
Polish: VG
Girdle: very thin-medium
Cutlet: none
Florescence: none
Symmetry: excellent
Cut Grade: very good
9.35-9.39-5.67

I've seen many ideal hearts and arrows EGL's now in person, do you think that this stone being GIA will be cut equally well as EGL Ideal? Better? Worse? What have you seen in your experience and what do you think of this stone? I plan on emailing them for the crown and pavilion angles so I can give more information. Thanks in advance for your help! I've really been enjoying this site.

[LaurieH]

Personally, I wouldn't worry about the crown and pavillion angles on this stone--it's received a Very Good Cut grade and Excellent symmetry, which means a human being has graded it in the appearance of the stone to be about as good as it gets. My concern is with the Clarity--SI, by definition, means that the inclusions in the stone are NOTICEABLE under magnification and may be visible with the naked eye. I'd be more concerned about seeing a plot for the diamond to know the location and type of inclusions to know if they're going to affect the appearance of the stone. You can say "oh, I don't expect anyone to be looking at it closely", but if you have inclusions that are dark right in the middle of the stone, they won't go unnoticed. Once that's sorted out, otherwise, I think it sounds like a pretty good stone. Just with that "Very Thin" girdle, I wouldn't worry too much, but if you go with this stone, make sure the jeweler setting the stone is aware so they can be a little more careful, esp if any of the inclusions are feathers near the girdle. Otherwise, you're fine.

Good luck and thanks for keeping us posted on your progress

[mrb2011]

Good point, i'm very curious too see what the inclusions do look like. I'll post the map this week when I get it.

To the naked eye, how much of a difference should I expect to see between very good and ideal cut stones? Perceivable? Seems to be a pretty big price jump here.

[LaurieH]

It's not an *exact* science, but if you're talking "hearts and arrows", those can really only be seen with a special scope--MOST people cannot really see them with the naked eye without that. Really what you're going to see a difference is in the Brilliance (proportion of white areas to dark areas when the diamond is held still) and Scintillation (same, but when the stone is rocked and tilted), but since you've got Excellent Symmetry and Very Good cut, I really think that there is going to be little difference to the average person when side-by-side, and almost no difference once it's set and you're just looking at the diamond by itself (or with smaller stones around it). The only red flag would be inclusions, and that you won't know til you see a plot, and even then, might not til you see the stone in person. But yeah, let us know when you do have that plot

[davidelevi]

mrb2011, on 30 January 2011 - 03:41 PM, said:

Good point, i'm very curious too see what the inclusions do look like. I'll post the map this week when I get it.

To the naked eye, how much of a difference should I expect to see between very good and ideal cut stones? Perceivable? Seems to be a pretty big price jump here.

The problem is you are comparing apples with pears (or cauliflowers). GIA's cut grade and EGL's cut grade scales and methodologies are not comparable. In addition, each cut grade (whether EGL or GIA) covers a fair amount of ground. There's VG that are nearly EX and VG that are a whisker away from G. To top it off, there are personal preferences coming into play...

Also, be careful when looking at plots; it's NOT a substitute for seeing the stone, and very often a perfectly horrible plot is quite innocuous in real life, and something with "just one small thing" ends up looking rather nasty in reality.

I personally would be a bit more sceptical than Laurie of the stone you are looking at - but I haven't seen it, and I don't know what your other parameters are either (e.g. budget).

Edited by davidelevi, 31 January 2011 - 06:30 AM.