14 replies to this topic

[glowbee]

Hello all,

I just bought a 1.04 carat princess cut diamond. The diamond is simply stunning, with particularly beautiful sparkle, but it appears to be much smaller than what I'd consider a 1CT to typically look like. To me it appears to be sized much more like a 0.75CT diamond. Can anyone please provide me with some assistance and guidance as to whether this is an undersized or poorly cut diamond? I have 30 days to return it and would really like an objective, yet knowledgable point of view. If the measurements I've listed below are undercut for this size, can you please help me to understand which ranges they should actually be within so I can purchase a new one? Also, as you will see from within the attached picture, this diamond is not yet set inside of it's permanent ring setting, it's still in a temporary oversized silver setting with tack around it for for added security. Thank you for your help, it is much appreciated!

Here are the diamonds specifications from the grading report:
Gemstone: Natural Diamond
Shape And Cut: Princess
Weight: 1.04 Carat
Color Grade: F
Clarity Grade: V2
Cut Grade: Very Good
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Measurements: 5.37 x 5.49 x 3.95 mm
Girdle: Thin To Medium
Cutlet: None
Fluorescence: None

Girdle Diameter: 5.44mm
Table: 68%
Pavilion Depth: 3.95mm / 72.6%

Attached Thumbnails

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Edited by glowbee, 08 February 2010 - 02:00 PM.

[denverappraiser]

That is a little bit small for a 1.04, maybe 10%, and I rather suspect the girdle thickness is more than they’ve reported but the fact that you’ve seen it and love the sparkle says quite a lot.

Who did the grading and what do they mean by the cut grade of ‘very good’?


Neil

[diamondsbylauren]

I would second Neil's question about who did the grading- this is very important to you , as a buyer.
The reason is that any report besides GIA or AGSL is not taken seriously by diamond traders.
Basically, any report besides GIA or AGSL will call the color and clarity into question.

Not to try and sour you on a diamond you apparently like alot- but knowing these details now, while you still have recourse, is important.

Generally speaking Princess Cuts do not look large for their weight......

[glowbee]

Thanks for the reply...

The certificate says the grading was done by DGR.

[diamondsbylauren]

MASSIVE red flag.
If the seller informed you that you were buying a stone that is "certified", they are really misleading you.

[denverappraiser]

I’m marginally less cynical than David but you need more information to make a rational decision here. I have no idea who DGR is so I’m hesitant to speak ill of them but, at the same time, the fact that they are unusual raises some serious questions. You are being asked by the seller to rely 100% on on this company for a fairly expensive decision. Who are they? Why should you care what they think? Why wasn’t this information included in the sales presentation if they’re proud of their lab and if they’re not, why are they using them? Anyone who wants to can call themselves a gem lab and come up with a 3 letter acronym after all. The burden is on them to convince you that their opinion has merit and the default answer is NO. Their contact information should be included in the report along with their website. Look ‘em up. Google them. If you can’t find anything, that tells you volumes, both about the lab and the jeweler who is asking you to rely on them. If you find something, you need to decide if it’s BS or just give us the link and we’ll take a stab at deconstructing it on your behalf. The credible labs are fast and really fairly cheap on this kind of work and it’s important to understand why they want to go with someone unusual. There are several possible reasons and most aren’t in your best interest.

If you love the stone, consider having it graded by someone who is working for YOU instead of them, and make sure to schedule your appointment so that you're still within the 30 day return window if they have something to say that you don't like.

Neil

Edited by denverappraiser, 08 February 2010 - 02:46 PM.

[glowbee]

Thank you so much for all the helpful information. You're great! You are right, there is no lab listed on my certificate. It just says DGR report, which stands for "Diamond Grading Report", but does not have any other information listed. Before I purchased this diamond, they had sent me a DGR report for another prospective diamond I was looking to purchase (which by measurement alone, is was not as "small" as the one they then sent me), but that report also did not list any lab name or contact info listed on it.

Edited by glowbee, 08 February 2010 - 03:00 PM.

[jan]

The stone looks kind of dull in the photo. I would make sure to get a GIA lab report with my diamond and look for one with a light performance analysis to back it up on the cut quality.

[AJC]

jan, on Tuesday, Feb 9 2010, 08:38 AM, said:

The stone looks kind of dull in the photo. I would make sure to get a GIA lab report with my diamond and look for one with a light performance analysis to back it up on the cut quality.

I agree.

To the OP: Since your diamond is already set, you won't be able to send it in to GIA for them to grade and send back with a report. I'm pretty new to diamond buying so I don't know exactly how you would go about figuring out if the specs you listed match up with those of the diamond, but I would suggest maybe taking it to an independent jeweler other than your own to see if they can take a look at it for you if you're having doubts. I hope everything turns out fine!

[denverappraiser]

AJC, on Tuesday, Feb 9 2010, 03:01 PM, said:

jan, on Tuesday, Feb 9 2010, 08:38 AM, said:

The stone looks kind of dull in the photo. I would make sure to get a GIA lab report with my diamond and look for one with a light performance analysis to back it up on the cut quality.

I agree.

To the OP: Since your diamond is already set, you won't be able to send it in to GIA for them to grade and send back with a report. I'm pretty new to diamond buying so I don't know exactly how you would go about figuring out if the specs you listed match up with those of the diamond, but I would suggest maybe taking it to an independent jeweler other than your own to see if they can take a look at it for you if you're having doubts. I hope everything turns out fine!

You can't grade a stone from a photograph, especially a bad photograph. I don't think it's set, it looks like it's just glued to a plate of silver with sticky tack (which would make the best of stones look terrible).

Neil

[diamondsbylauren]

I think it's illuminating having tradespeople posting here.
Consumers get to enjoy different perspectives.
AS a seller, I view things differently than Neil- who speaks as an appraiser.
I'm not shy about my displeasure with sellers using what I consider to be deceptive methods.
Therefore, I would never advise patronizing such a seller with the intention of having an appraiser verify what the seller said.

If the seller is not advising consumers that GIA and AGS are the ONLY two labs that dealers and cutters trust, they don't deserve your business.
Either they're not familiar with the diamond business, or they have no problem keeping buyers in the dark.
Neither seems to inspire a good feeling about the seller to me- nor can a third party appraiser really help this situation.

[AJC]

diamondsbylauren, on Tuesday, Feb 9 2010, 12:43 PM, said:

If the seller is not advising consumers that GIA and AGS are the ONLY two labs that dealers and cutters trust, they don't deserve your business.
Either they're not familiar with the diamond business, or they have no problem keeping buyers in the dark.
Neither seems to inspire a good feeling about the seller to me- nor can a third party appraiser really help this situation.

Those are good points. After doing some of my own homework, I found that GIA is a non-profit organization, and since GIA and AGS seem to be ranked highest among grading labs, I'm assuming that they both have consumers' best interests in mind. If a seller doesn't advocate either, I would personally be a bit skeptical about shopping with them.

diamondsbylauren, on Tuesday, Feb 9 2010, 12:43 PM, said:

Either they're not familiar with the diamond business, or they have no problem keeping buyers in the dark.

That definitely scares me a bit!

[davidelevi]

Hum. I'd be careful equating "not for profit" with "consumer oriented". GIA (and any other grading lab) have to come up with a workable compromise between the wishes and interests of their clients (basically the sellers) who want relatively little information disclosed, and for what is disclosed to be as flattering as possible, and the buyers, who want as much information disclosed as possible and wish it to be as objective as possible.

GIA and AGSL navigate this trade off by revealing a limited amount of information, but making it as reliable and reproducible as possible. That adds value to both sellers and buyers, but it's not necessarily "consumer driven"

[diamondsbylauren]

Actually, GIA does it by having two parts- an arm dedicated to education- and the Gem Trade Laboratory- which is a for profit organization.....

[Jack7000]

glowbee, on Monday, Feb 8 2010, 12:34 PM, said:

...it appears to be much smaller than what I'd consider a 1CT to typically look like.

Can anyone please provide me with some assistance and guidance as to whether this is an undersized or poorly cut diamond?

Your questions lead to more questions.

"Smaller than what I'd consider..."
begs the question - do you know with certainty what a 1ct PC looks like? A professional diamond dealer can make an educated guess but never does; they ALWAYS use a scale, regardless of what it "looks like". Mounted as shown, you have created a classic optical illusion that tricks your brain into perceiving the stone as "smaller". Jewelers use the reverse trick of mounting a stone high and on small prongs to make it "look" larger.

...whether this is an undersized or poorly cut...
This can't be determined in the virtual world. These are characteristics that are determined by a combination of mechanics (sarin machine, etc) and a highly trained and experienced diamond grader.

glowbee, on Monday, Feb 8 2010, 12:34 PM, said:

Shape And Cut: Princess
Weight: 1.04 Carat
Color Grade: F
Clarity Grade: V2
Cut Grade: Very Good
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Measurements: 5.37 x 5.49 x 3.95 mm
Girdle: Thin To Medium
Cutlet: None
Fluorescence: None

Table: 68%
Pavilion Depth: 3.95mm / 72.6%

In the virtual world, your only recourse to evaluating your "actual" stone is to compare it to a virtual stone. What follows is the measurements of a similar stone from Bluenile:

Stock number: LD01026211
Price: $4,617
Carat weight: 1.04
Cut: Very Good
Color: F
Clarity: VS2
Depth %: 71.9%
Table %: 69%
Symmetry: Good
Polish: Excellent
Girdle: Slightly Thick
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 5.83 x 5.37 x 3.86 mm

The first thing you can deduce is that your stone isn't uniquely proportioned. Side by side, an untrained observer would probably not be able to quantify the minute differences between the two stones. If you use .1mm as the average width of a human hair, one stone is 3 hairs longer and 1 hair shallower. The Depth and Table differences are even smaller. Based on the information you've provided, there is nothing else that can be factually discussed re: cut quality or size.

Whether or not you paid a fair price is wrapped up in the accuracy of your grading report (DGR).
Your generic DGR is potentially nothing more than a sales tool concocted to maximize the seller's profit by inaccurately reporting two key values: color and clarity. Until your stone is evaluated by an unbiased professional or lab (GIA/AGSL), it's true market value will be mystery.