17 replies to this topic

[Ryan M.]

Ok, so I bought an engagement ring but decided against buying the center diamond from the store because they were offering an awful price. I need some help buying a center stone.

Here's what I'm looking for:
1) Certified by AGS, GIA, or EGL (preference in that order)
2) Carat >1.0
3) Color anywhere from D-G
4) Cut: ideal or excellent
5) Clarity: need a little help here, IF-SI1? Is SI1 too low, should I stick with VS2 and higher?

Here's my options so far:
Option 1) EGL certified, 1.04 carat, G, exclusive ideal cut, VS2. I have the measurements and they are all excellent/ideal (depth, table, polish, symmetry, etc). Comes with appraisal, certificate, and 30 day money back guarantee, free shipping, no tax. Price: $3,594.

Option 2) EGL certified, 1.20 carat, G, premium cut (1 step below option 1), VS2. Table width is 1% too wide for ideal plus, still considered ideal though. This diamond has been clarity enhanced. Comes with appraisal, certificate, 7 day money back guarantee, no tax, free shipping. Price: $2,650.

Option 3) EGL certified, 1.27 carat, E, exclusive ideal cut, SI1. Comes with certificate, 7 day money back guarantee, no tax, free shipping. Price: $3,600 or best offer.

Any help with choosing the best diamond is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[denverappraiser]

1) EGL. Apparently you’ve ruled out AGS and GIA, which you claim are your first choice. Why? I’m going to take a leap here and guess that it’s because you can find EGL graded stones that use similar grading language for less money. That’s your call but bear in mind that they don’t use the same grading scales as these other labs, nor do they apply their scales equally. EGL-VS2 does not mean the same as GIA-VS2. Their cut grading scales don’t even use the same words. ‘Premium’ is the bottom grade with a name for example. It’s also worth noting that there is more than one company operating under the EGL brand. EGL-USA and EGL International are completely different outfits and I think EGL-Canada has recently come into it’s own as well.

2) Appraisal. You’ve listed this as an attribute on all 3 stones. Why? Again, I’ll take a leap and guess that the seller is including it ‘free’ and is pointing to it as evidence of a bargain. You may want to consider if this is a valid issue. A second opinion from the same people who gave you the first is of questionable value and if the value conclusion where they say what it’s worth is substantially different from what they’re willing to sell it for, you should be seriously asking what they mean by ‘worth’.

3) Make sure you understand what ‘clarity enhanced’ means. It’s a huge deal.

4) ‘Ideal’ cutting is used in wildly different ways by different people. If you’re going to rely on someone’s opinion on this, make sure you understand what they mean by it. There are VAST differences.

Why are you avoiding SI1 clarity? For that matter, how did you pick your desired color range? Realistically you're covering half the scale here, you might try to narrow things down a bit.

Neil

[diamondsbylauren]

Hi Ryan,
It seems you've already picked up on the fact that stones graded by GIA are the way to go....why consider stones graded by EGL?


On another note- it's so funny how sellers come up with these names for the cut of diamond.
"Exclusive Ideal cut" which is far better than the "common Ideal cut" which is not nearly as good as the "Super Dooper Hooper My cousin is a genius diamond cutter Extra special SUPER Ideal Cut ( with chocolate sprinkles)

[davidelevi]

You start well meaning, but you fall by the wayside pretty quickly. There's plenty of AGS and GIA-graded diamonds that fall within your specs, so why pick on three EGL, of which one is CE?

The issue is not that GIA or AGS diamonds cost more (why should they? there's plenty of them, and lab fees for a 1.00-1.50 are around $100), the issue is that with EGL you don't know where you stand. The G/VS2 could be a G/VS2 (unlikely) or an I/SI1 (more likely), but then you aren't comparing like with like when you compare the price with a GIA-graded G/VS2. Put it another way - you are very unlikely to find a diamond which is a significant bargain just because it has an EGL rather than a GIA report.

Vendor denominations such as "exclusive ideal" usually mean zippo, and tell you nothing on the cut of the diamond. Ask your vendor how they determined the cut grade and if it involves some fixed recipe using only the proportions that are present on the grading paper, run a mile.

Also - if I were you, I'd avoid clarity enhanced stones like the plague. First of all, the enhancement may not be permanent, and although many vendors guarantee the enhancement, you will still need to get the stone to them and back, plus unsetting and resetting it. Secondly, a clarity enhanced stone will be much more difficult to resell, should you ever need to (or should you ever want to upgrade).

[Ryan M.]

denverappraiser, on Monday, Nov 2 2009, 03:01 PM, said:

1) EGL. Apparently you’ve ruled out AGS and GIA, which you claim are your first choice. Why? I’m going to take a leap here and guess that it’s because you can find EGL graded stones that use similar grading language for less money. That’s your call but bear in mind that they don’t use the same grading scales as these other labs, nor do they apply their scales equally. EGL-VS2 does not mean the same as GIA-VS2. Their cut grading scales don’t even use the same words. ‘Premium’ is the bottom grade with a name for example. It’s also worth noting that there is more than one company operating under the EGL brand. EGL-USA and EGL International are completely different outfits and I think EGL-Canada has recently come into it’s own as well.

2) Appraisal. You’ve listed this as an attribute on all 3 stones. Why? Again, I’ll take a leap and guess that the seller is including it ‘free’ and is pointing to it as evidence of a bargain. You may want to consider if this is a valid issue. A second opinion from the same people who gave you the first is of questionable value and if the value conclusion where they say what it’s worth is substantially different from what they’re willing to sell it for, you should be seriously asking what they mean by ‘worth’.

3) Make sure you understand what ‘clarity enhanced’ means. It’s a huge deal.

4) ‘Ideal’ cutting is used in wildly different ways by different people. If you’re going to rely on someone’s opinion on this, make sure you understand what they mean by it. There are VAST differences.

Why are you avoiding SI1 clarity? For that matter, how did you pick your desired color range? Realistically you're covering half the scale here, you might try to narrow things down a bit.

Neil

You are correct on your bullet point 1. EGL graded diamonds fit my budget better. As for the appraisal, it's not as big of a deal coming from the companies I buy them from. I will immediately take the diamond to a local jeweler and have it re-appraised.

I realize ideal cut is subjective, but it is included on the EGL report, so I'd rather go with an ideal than a premium or very good. I'm avoiding SI1 clarity if possible because I worry that a stone >1.0 carats will have visible inclusions and not be eye clean.

My desired color range is anything G or better. I assume that EGL is 1-2 grades off of GIA. I'm leery of an EGL G, but am considering it. I think a D SI1 might be preferable to a G VS2.

Thanks for the help.

[diamondsbylauren]

Ryan M., on Monday, Nov 2 2009, 04:56 PM, said:

denverappraiser, on Monday, Nov 2 2009, 03:01 PM, said:

1) EGL. Apparently you’ve ruled out AGS and GIA, which you claim are your first choice. Why? I’m going to take a leap here and guess that it’s because you can find EGL graded stones that use similar grading language for less money. That’s your call but bear in mind that they don’t use the same grading scales as these other labs, nor do they apply their scales equally. EGL-VS2 does not mean the same as GIA-VS2. Their cut grading scales don’t even use the same words. ‘Premium’ is the bottom grade with a name for example. It’s also worth noting that there is more than one company operating under the EGL brand. EGL-USA and EGL International are completely different outfits and I think EGL-Canada has recently come into it’s own as well.

2) Appraisal. You’ve listed this as an attribute on all 3 stones. Why? Again, I’ll take a leap and guess that the seller is including it ‘free’ and is pointing to it as evidence of a bargain. You may want to consider if this is a valid issue. A second opinion from the same people who gave you the first is of questionable value and if the value conclusion where they say what it’s worth is substantially different from what they’re willing to sell it for, you should be seriously asking what they mean by ‘worth’.

3) Make sure you understand what ‘clarity enhanced’ means. It’s a huge deal.

4) ‘Ideal’ cutting is used in wildly different ways by different people. If you’re going to rely on someone’s opinion on this, make sure you understand what they mean by it. There are VAST differences.

Why are you avoiding SI1 clarity? For that matter, how did you pick your desired color range? Realistically you're covering half the scale here, you might try to narrow things down a bit.

Neil

You are correct on your bullet point 1. EGL graded diamonds fit my budget better. As for the appraisal, it's not as big of a deal coming from the companies I buy them from. I will immediately take the diamond to a local jeweler and have it re-appraised.

I realize ideal cut is subjective, but it is included on the EGL report, so I'd rather go with an ideal than a premium or very good. I'm avoiding SI1 clarity if possible because I worry that a stone >1.0 carats will have visible inclusions and not be eye clean.

My desired color range is anything G or better. I assume that EGL is 1-2 grades off of GIA. I'm leery of an EGL G, but am considering it. I think a D SI1 might be preferable to a G VS2.

Thanks for the help.

Hi Ryan,
We all want you to get the best possible diamond for your money.
It's not EGL that better fits your budget- it's misgraded diamonds.
In terms of the "cut grade"...Please, for your own sake, keep in mind these grades are worse than arbitrary- as they make it seem as there's some greater liklihood you'll be getting a well cut diamond- the opposite is true IMO as the sellers of better cut diamonds generally represent them more honestly.
Sellers using EGL reports "on par" with GIA have already shown themselves to be willing to deceive.

[davidelevi]

EGL graded diamonds don't "fit your budget better". You can find a GIA or AGS graded diamond that fits your budget too, it's just that you don't like the idea of the grade stated by GIA or AGS that fits your budget, which for a decently cut 1.0x stone is probably something in the region of J/K-SI2.

You seem to assume that just because someone calls a diamond E-VS2 (or whatever else), then everybody else will call it E-VS2. If what matters to you is a piece of paper that says E-VS2 (or whatever else), I can provide one for free from DGL (Davide's Gem Lab) that will say anything you want. On nice paper, and a hologram sticker, too. Not interested? I thought so. The question is why are you interested in an EGL report, then?

So, what next? You can decide to ignore what three people with a limited vested interest (a dealer specialised in coloured diamonds, an appraiser who doesn't sell jewellery, and a consumer) have told you, or you can reassess your priorities. Something's gotta give. Either size, or cut, or colour. Of the three, I'd keep tight on cut, and let go on size and colour. Have you ever seen a really well cut K colour diamond?

[davidelevi]

On clarity: AFAIK the clarity grade assigned by GIA or AGS does not take into account the size of the stone. An average 1.50 ct SI1 contains the same "amount" of inclusions/blemishes as an average (!) 15.00 ct SI1.

While it is true that some inclusions may be more easily noticeable in larger stones, this is generally true for 3.00 ct and above; bear in mind that a 1.00 - 1.50 round is between 6.50 and 7.50 mm - that is between 1/4" and 5/16", and it still has 56 facets into which to "lose" the inclusions.

[denverappraiser]

On a 1+ carat stone, GIA’s fees are roughly $25 more than EGL’s. That’s it. The rest of the price difference you’re seeing has to do with differing grading standards. No dealer with any sense is going to be selling their goods with a pedigree that doesn’t maximize their sales prices so you have to figure that they evaluated what they could get with GIA paper at full price compared to what they could get with EGL paper at a discounted price from a higher grade. They ended up shipping to EGL. This is not a decision that they enter into lightly and both labs (along with several others) are already in their speed-dial’s. They chose the one that would work the best for that particular stone and then they sold it through the distribution channel that was most appropriate for whatever it is. Errors do occasionally happen but gaming it at the end by using your computer to find the cheapest stone that SOMEONE is willing to call a G/VS2 is a near guaranteed failure approach if the objective is to get the most diamond for your money.

Unfortunately, there’s not a simple conversion chart to go from GIA grades to other things like your aiming for. ‘Discounting’ by 1-2 grades is simply not a valid strategy. Some are dead on, some differ by as much as 4 grades. That’s the problem. If there were an adjustment that could be done without looking at the stone rather like converting foreign currency then it would be a non-issue.

I again point out that one of the stones you chose is ‘clarity enhanced’ but you haven’t otherwise commented on that beyond noting that I has an attractive price. Do you know what that means?

Neil

[denverappraiser]

To answer your question in the headline, yes, I have a better choice.

#1. Choose a dealer, or perhaps 2. No more than 3. What you’re looking for isn’t all that difficult and anyone can get it. You WON’T find a mispriced bargain so choose who you want to do business with FIRST. Dealers are not interchangeable and it's a mistake to assume that because Google can handle millions of them that the one who promises the lowest prices or the highest grades is going to be the best. They NEVER are.

#2. Set your budget.

#3. Identify what specs are important to you. Important issues include shape, how you want to divide the money between mounting and diamond, what’s your taste like in color, what’s your tolerance for inclusions, fluorescence, cut quality vs size, etc. Try to narrow it down to no more than 2 clarity grades and 2 colors. Decide if you are willing to work long distance, if you have the patience for a warehouse type store, if you value warranties and similar intangibles.

#4. Talk to your chosen dealer and ask them to make recommendations of stones. Insist on GIA or AGSL grading. Listen to their advice.

#5. When you find a stone that seems promising, have them ship it to you and immediately get it appraised by an independent expert. Talk to your appraiser about every detail and ask questions both about what they like and what they didn’t like. Show it to your Mom, your roommate, your astrologer and anyone else who’s opinion you value.

#6. If it passes step five, hand carry or ship it to the jeweler who will be setting it. If you can arrange it, use the same people who sold you the stone. If it fails step 5, ship it back to the dealer and go back to #4. Decide at this point that the failure was an intent to deceive on the part of the dealer or simply a miscommunication. If it’s the former, find a different dealer, if it’s the later find a different stone.

#7. When the ring is complete, go back to the appraiser for final documentation. Get it inspected for the quality of craftsmanship as well as to be sure that the stone and mounting are as expected and undamaged etc. Use this report to bind an insurance policy with a 3rd party insurer.

#8. Put together a kick ass presentation and make a show of it. Try not to act too surprised when she says 'yes'.


By the way, this all applies whether or not you're shopping online, in the neighborhood or in one of the 'diamond districts' distributed about the country.

Neil

[Ryan M.]

Ok, so you guys have made me change my mind (geez, tough crowd!). I am scrapping the EGL's and going with a GIA or AGS stone. Now I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and am ready to whittle this down and buy a stone. Here's the engagement ring if anyone wants to see what I'm working with: [url="http://www.tacori.com/Engagement-Rings/2616RD65"][url]http://www.tacori.com/Engagement-Rings/2616RD65[/url][/url] It's already been purchased and is being hand made now. It should arrive in 2 weeks, so I'd like to have a stone before then so that it can be mounted and given to the lucky lady shortly thereafter.

Ok, to go through Neil's points now.

1) I live in Lansing, MI and I am not getting good prices on diamonds. I think I will use a dealer online. The ones I've heard the best things about are: bluenile.com, steindiamonds.com, and pricescope.com.

2) Budget: $4,000.

3) Round diamond, mounting is free (since I bought the engagement ring already)
Color: H-J (maybe with a little fluorescence)
Clarity: VS2-SI2
Cut: Ideal only
Size: 0.98ct or larger
Fluorescence: preferred but not necessary

Ok, so this is where I am at. I feel like I'm close to buying a diamond. Will she be able to tell that the diamond is I or J in color if she is just an average know-little-about-diamonds type of girl?

I'd like to stay on subject, but if someone could explain "spread" to me I'd appreciate it. Pricescope has it included in their searches, and I'm not sure what is ideal, what is good, and what is unacceptable.

You guys have been great. I've learned a lot from you. I'm now really excited to buy a diamond and actually know what I'm getting instead of hoping to get what I paid for. Thanks a million!

Ryan

[davidelevi]

Hi Ryan - sorry for giving you a tough time, but it's all for the best You definitely aren't skimping on the ring, it's really a nice setting - so get her a really good diamond!

Suppliers: Pricescope - like this site - is an advertising channel; some companies advertising on PS also advertise here. You can find their goods by clicking on the "find online jeweler" link at the top of the page. Don't know Stein, while Blue Nile has a lot of stock available, but has the (in my view) significant disadvantage that they never see the diamonds, so they are unable to help you with the decision. This is certainly true in respect of clarity and cut: a good SI2 or even I1 will be eye-clean, but you can't rely on a grading report to tell you that; however you can always buy insurance in the form of a VS2 grade. On cut, you are on your own - and it's the most important thing to get right. Not all GIA "excellent" look the same, and to some the criteria used are too loose; AGS-0 is tighter, but again even AGS-0 have different looks.

Size-wise, if you can stick to 0.90-0.99, you'll get the carat look but you'll pay considerably less: one of the quirks of diamond pricing is that it jumps up once the diamond goes over one of the significant points (0.50, 1.00, 1.50, ...).

Colour: a well cut I or J diamond set in white gold without an immediate E or F colour comparison by the side will look very white. An unset J, if looked through the side against a white piece of paper will show a little tint. Put another way - if Tiffany sells I colour diamonds, I think you can be reasonably certain they are pretty good quality, and J isn't that far away

Spread: another word for size. A "spready" diamond is one that has a relatively wide diameter for its weight, so some spread is good. However, a very spready diamond will normally look like a large piece of - hem - ice, because light will tend to go through it rather than bouncing back. As for most things, there are happy averages...

Some options/ideas for you to consider - in terms of suppliers and of stones:

http://www.goodoldgo...m/diamond/5485/
http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/ind...nity&id=712
http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/ind...nity&id=576 (this is interesting because there is a video of a K colour, so you can to some extent judge by yourself if you can see the colour - bear in mind that the lighting is about as good as it gets in the video)

I will repeat Neil's advice: pick your seller first. Give a few people/companies a call, and see how you get on. Do they convey a sense of trust and competence in helping you pick a good diamond, or do they smell of snake oil and convey excellent sales pressure techniques?

[denverappraiser]

You’ve still got way too big a range and you apparently haven’t picked a dealer yet.

GIA only/H-J/VS1-SI1/0.98-1.02ct from the dealers advertising here range in prices from $2641 –$9513, nearly a factor of 4!

Go to some jewelers and look at some real diamonds instead of scans of documents online. Ask to see the best cut stones they’ve got and look at H-I-J-K colors to see if you can tell the difference and to see what you like. Ask to see their branded line for excellent cutting and compare it to the more generic stones they've got to offer. Look at some GIA SI1's and SI2's to see if YOU can tell the difference.

You've got Tacori handmaking a ring without knowing the size of the center stone? What specs did you give them? Is this being done through an authorized Tacori dealer?

Neil

Edited by denverappraiser, 03 November 2009 - 02:23 PM.

[diamondsbylauren]

HI Ryan,
I love the ring you picked!
I echo Neil's question- you must have ordered the ring with a head installed. Is the dealer you bought the ring from doing the setting?


Personally, I am not a fan of "Ideal" cuts- preferring other very well cut round diamonds.
The term was coined to describe a diamond that has a smaller table. At the time the preferred cut was "spredier"- referring to the fact a larger table, in concert with other aspects of the cut, give the stone a larger diameter, or "spread".
Basically there are many cases of a well cut 1.00ct "Ideal" stone having a diameter of 6.3mm, while a slightly spreadier cut may have a diameter of 6.6mm- which is noticeably larger.

Within the grades of EX, and VG cut grade of GIA there's a range of really great looking stones- including really well cut "spready" diamonds.
There are a lot of great values in "VG" cut graded stones.

I'll see if we have one to phtograph for you tomorrow.

[Ryan M.]

denverappraiser, on Tuesday, Nov 3 2009, 05:20 PM, said:

You’ve still got way too big a range and you apparently haven’t picked a dealer yet.

GIA only/H-J/VS1-SI1/0.98-1.02ct from the dealers advertising here range in prices from $2641 –$9513, nearly a factor of 4!

Go to some jewelers and look at some real diamonds instead of scans of documents online. Ask to see the best cut stones they’ve got and look at H-I-J-K colors to see if you can tell the difference and to see what you like. Ask to see their branded line for excellent cutting and compare it to the more generic stones they've got to offer. Look at some GIA SI1's and SI2's to see if YOU can tell the difference.

You've got Tacori handmaking a ring without knowing the size of the center stone? What specs did you give them? Is this being done through an authorized Tacori dealer?

Neil

Ok, here is an update on my progress. I went to the dealer who I put the order in for the Tacori ring (yes they are an authorized Tacori dealer) and they are making the ring for a 1ct stone +/- 5 points. The dealer will be setting the stone.

While I was there I looked at many different stones to see what I liked. I will be getting an AGS 0 stone or a GIA "excellent" stone, they are brilliant. I want color of I or better, preferably H or G. I could see the inclusions on SI2's that I saw (all diamonds were GIA certified), but I had to look really closely and I'd be ok with it (plus they would help to hide any visible defects with a prong).

Here's what I'm looking for: 1-1.05ct AGS 0 or GIA excellent cut, SI2 or better, I color or better. I'm using the pricescope.com/cutadvisor to help determine if the diamonds I find will reflect light well. I am only looking at diamonds I can "see" online.

I will post a couple of diamonds I have found on here in the next few days, and with everyone's help buy one!

Thanks!

[davidelevi]

If by "see" online you mean with photos/videos online, ignore the HCA and ask the dealer, since to photograph or video the stone they must have access to it. The HCA is a rejection tool (with a lot of limits, BTW), not a selection tool.

[Ryan M.]

Ok, so here is a stone that I have found that seems to fit everything I'm looking for. Does anyone see anything that sticks out to them as a reason I shouldn't buy it? After I buy a stone I will take it to an appraiser before it's set. It's 0-2 on the HCA as well.

Certification: GIA
Measurements: 6.45 x 6.51 x 3.93
Ct weight: 1.01
Cut grade: Excellent
Color: H
Clarity: SI2
Symmetry: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Cutlet: None
Girdle: Thin to medium 3%
Fluorescence: Medium Blue
Depth %: 60.6
Table %: 58
Crown Angle: 35
Pavilion Angle: 40.6

Price: $3,925

Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

Ryan

[davidelevi]

No alarm bells ringing; the only question I would have at this stage is whether it is eye clean or not.

On the other hand, all the paper in the world is not worth a single eye on the stone. See it, see if you fall in love with it, and hear what the appraiser thinks.

Edited by davidelevi, 10 November 2009 - 01:53 AM.