15 replies to this topic

[lennon_dragon]

Hi there,

My fiancee and I have found a ring that we really like but we are unsure if it is as "brilliant" as it should be. The spec of the ring looks pretty good (to us anyway) but we were wondering if the ring might not be cut as well as it could have been. Don't get me wrong - the diamond is still pretty stunning but when we compared it to a similar cut and graded diamond we noticed that it didn't shine as brightly. Incidentally, the similar diamond is attached to a ring that we don't want to purchase. We were a little bit worried that we were able to see the trace of a bow tie in the stone but can't be 100% sure. I would appreciate if you could review this spec and let us know if this diamond seems good from the numbers:

Cert: EGL

Description: Natural Diamond

Weight: 1.01 ct

Shape: Radiant

Measurements: 5.94 x 4.85 x 4.03 mm

Depth %: 83.1%

Table Diameter %: 73%

Crown Height: 17%

Pavillion Depth: 51%

Girdle thickness: Sl. Thick to Extr. Thick

Finish Grade: Very Good

Purity (Clarity Grade): Internally Flawless

Color Grade: D

Photoluminescence: None

The diamond is on a platinum ring with 18 princess cut diamonds on the shoulder. The total price is $9,281.59. We are buying the diamond in Ireland so the price may not seem that competitive when compared with US prices.

I've attached a picture of the ring if that helps!

Thanks for taking the time to read this!!

Edited by lennon_dragon, 15 September 2009 - 09:19 AM.

[davidelevi]

Hi lennon_dragon,

Sorry to disappoint, but you really are asking an impossible question to answer:

1. There's no accounting for taste
2. There is no way to predict how a fancy cut will look like or tell whether it's well cut from the information published on a grading report
3. Photographs offer limited help in assessing cut even when they are in carefully controlled lighting, taken using a good quality macro lens and looking at the stone from several angles (not just the front, which is all you can do when the stone is set in a ring!)

For what it's worth (and remember how much you are paying me for this advice), I don't think you are spending your money to the most effect:

1. You are paying a premium price for something you really cannot see without a loupe and particular conditions (loose stone, controlled lighting): D vs. F colour, and IF vs. VS1 clarity
2. For the same price, you can get a properly graded (GIA or AGSL) stone with the same grades, although set in a simpler setting. EGL is unreliable.
3. The stone faces up relatively small because of the relatively high depth.
4. The girdle is thick - again resulting in lower apparent size of the stone.

[lennon_dragon]

Hi davidelevi,

Thanks for taking the time to reply, we appreciate your advice. We kind of suspected that it would be difficult for someone to evaluate the cut based on the grading report and those photos but we said we'd give it a shot anyway! We are going to discuss the cut of the ring with the jeweller this week. Are there any particular questions we should ask him?

We also are aware that we are paying a premium price for characteristics of the diamond which you can't see with the naked eye but I think we just liked the ring as a whole so we are willing to overlook this fact. We are going to ask the jeweller is there anyway that he could put a similar cut and shaped diamond but with lower colour and clarity onto the same ring. Is this a reasonable request?

Finally, again this is probably difficult to answer, but how unreliable is an ELG grade compared to a GIA grade?

Thanks again

[davidelevi]

I'll start from your second question, because it may be the most important one:

There is no reason why the jeweller shouldn't be able to modify the ring or have another one made with the same model to fit a different centre stone. However, bear in mind that it's clearly in his interest to sell an item he has in readily stock rather than altering it to suit your requirements - particularly if the alteration involves lowering his overall price.

(From what I can see from your photos, there is no reason why 101 other jewellers cannot help you with a very similar setting, by the way)

On what you should ask - I think you should focus on finding a "good" centre stone, starting from the assumption that the setting can be sourced or adjusted relatively easily. This means looking at different colour and clarity grades, different cutting styles and possibly different shapes (unless you are already set on radiant), as well as considering any trade-offs with budget and size. You may have done a lot of this already - in which case, I apologise - but from the sort of questions you are asking you seem to be in the relatively early stages of the process, and I think you may run the risk of jumping the gun a bit.

On reliability - you are right, it's difficult to give a direct answer, precisely because it's unreliable. However, I would say that 2 grades on both clarity and colour are not uncommon, and 3 are not unheard of. This may seem a small thing, but it can account for 50% or more on price per carat.

[lennon_dragon]

Thanks again for the information. Some good advice in there.

You're right, we have only been looking at rings for a couple of weeks and there is a steep learning curve involved. The most important thing seems to be to find a good stone and then assume that its easy enough to get the right setting for that stone. I am going to be talking with the jeweller tomorrow so I will broach this topic. I will keep you posted.

[davidelevi]

You are most welcome. Feel free to come back with any further questions!

[lennon_dragon]

I spoke with the jeweller and every thing was good. He agreed that the stone is the most important piece and said that it would be no problem to attach a similar stone to the setting that we like. He is going to order in a few different stones (different specs, different certs) and we're gonna decide which one we like best.

He also agreed that GIA is more reputable than EGL and has said that he will get the stone certified by GIA if that's what we want to do.

I will keep you posted.

[davidelevi]

Good. It sounds like you have found someone who is prepared to work with you.

Just one final word on grading reports. Do not assume that there is a formula or recipe to get a "GIA grade" from an "EGL grade"; the problem is not the strictness of the grading, but the unreliability (EGL may be spot on sometimes, sometimes 1, 2 or even 3 grades off; occasionally more strict, more often more lenient; EGL-US is quite different from EGL-Israel, different from EGL-Belgium, different from IGI...).

Also, consider that no matter what the dealer tells you, the differences in cost and service levels between GIA, AGS and the rest are frankly irrelevant (a few tens of dollars per stone). There is a reason why a given stone has a report from a given lab, and the dealer is the one who chooses which report to market the stone with.

Edited by davidelevi, 27 August 2009 - 04:39 AM.

[lennon_dragon]

Hi there,

We've spoken with the jeweller a couple of times over the last few weeks and looked at a good many stones. I was just wondering if anyone could tell me if there is any technically wrong with either of these two stones. I know that I might be paying a bit of a premium price for them because they are D and IF. I also know that EGL doesn't come as highly recommended as GIA. But leaving those two points aside is there anything technically wrong with the specification of either of these stones. Having viewed both stones I think they both look really good.

Stone 1
Weight: 0.54 ct
Shape and cut: Cut Corner Princess Cut
Measurements: 5.44 x 4.47 x 2.68 mm
Depth % : 60
Table Diameter : 71%
Crown Height : 10%
Pavilion Depth : 50%
Girdle Thickness: Thin
Finish Grade: Good
Purity: IF
Color Grade : D
Photoluminescence: None

Stone 1
Weight: 1.04 ct
Shape and cut: Radiant Cut
Measurements: 6.47 x 5.29 x 3.67 mm
Depth % : 69.4
Table Diameter : 73%
Crown Height : 16%
Pavilion Depth : 50%
Girdle Thickness: Very thin to thick
Finish Grade: Good
Purity: IF
Color Grade : D
Photoluminescence: None

Thanks for taking a look and we appreciate any feedback you may have

[denverappraiser]

Hi Lemon Dragon,

Welcome back.

Hmm. So we know nothing about the clarity, color, cutting or price. Outside of that they both look good although I would look into the the reasons behind the 'very thin' girdle on stone #2.

Neil

[davidelevi]

Just to expound a bit on what Neil says:

Presumably you are prepared to pay a premium for a D/IF because you think this way you'll get the whitest, clearest possible stone. Right? Well, what you are getting is a stone which is called "D/IF", but I can guarantee it's not going to be the clearest, whitest possible stone. Why? Precisely for the reasons I mentioned a couple of posts back:

1. D/IF is "worth" a premium (of between 50 and 100% compared to an otherwise similar E/VVS1)
2. If the dealer sent the stone(s) to GIA or AGSL, they would have come back as "E/VVS1" or worse: no premium
3. ...

So, yes, technically there is quite a bit that is potentially "wrong". Will you be able to distinguish either stone with the naked eye from a properly graded F/VS1? No, you won't, and 99.99% of everybody else won't either. However, paying a premium in my mind is only (if ever) justified if the item is worth it. Paying a 25-50% premium for something that I could get with a reliable grade and a lower price somewhere else is most definitely not worth it.

BTW - just in case you are suspicious of my or Neil's motives for being so - erm - unkind to EGL: I am a consumer (or collector) of jewelry; it's very very unlikely you'd ever buy anything from me, since I rarely sell (my wife won't let me ). Neil is a professional in the jewelry industry, but does not sell diamonds and is not associated with anyone who does so.

On a separate issue: it's a bit uncommon to see someone undecided between a half carater princess (although with cut corners it may well look like a radiant), and a one carat radiant. Any reason why you landed on those two?

[lennon_dragon]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the feedback. The reason that we are drifting towards D/IF/EGL rings is that the jeweller doesn't really have much else in stock. Most of the stones are D/IF and almost all are EGL. He did order in a couple from GIA for us but they were either too big (and hence too expensive ) and the one that was in our price range had a very noticeable bow tie in it so we immediately dismissed that one.

So we are back to these two stones. At this stage we are considering just going back to scratch and trying another jeweller or asking the current jeweller to order in more stones for us to take a look at. The problem is that it takes 3 hrs for me to drive from my house to the jewellers so its a big trip every time I have to go look at diamonds!

In terms of these two stones we we're really excited about 1.04 radiant but we thought that it was a little pricey ($9131) and the 0.54 stone almost looks as big and is a good deal cheaper ($4479). What is the difference between the corner-cut princess and the radiant? They both look very similar?

Needless to say our minds are a bit frazzled trying to decide! I think what we ideally want is a stone thats maybe 0.80 - 1.00 ct, radiant, E/F, VVS1/VVS2. At this point we are also considering just buying online from someone like bluenile.com - it's convenient if nothing else!

Thanks for your help

[denverappraiser]

Start over.

You’re paying a goodly premium for the D/IF claim and if that’s not one of your priorities then I wouldn’t do it just for the convenience of your jeweler. 0.80-0.99/E-F/VVS1-2 has close to a hundred stones in the database here. It's not the easiest call but it's not THAT darned hard to get you what you want. Prices in Ireland are at a premium because of taxes and other issues and the jeweler is going to charge for their work on this, which is reasonable by the way, but it’s crazy to buy something other than what you really want just because they happen to have it on hand.

Cutting is a big deal on fancy’s, just like it is on rounds and it’s the tricky part of buying. That’s where the advantage comes to the local jeweler because they can actually show you a stone to consider. As you’ve noticed, they don’t all look the same. If they’ve got good relations with their suppliers they should be able to look through the specs and pick out likely prospects for you. Photos are extremely helpful and pay attention to the length-width ratio as this has a significant effect on the overall look of the stone and decide if you want a more rectangular or squarish look. When you spot one that seems likely, have the seller (or their supplier) actually look at the stone and give you their assessment of things like bowtie and light leakage before anyone incurs a shipping charge to get it to you. There are several tools that they can use that are helpful at this sort of assessment and it’s worthwhile to work with someone who isn’t just relying on the lab report to pick a stone.

Neil

[lennon_dragon]

Hi Guys,

Thats definitely good advice. I think we know what kind of diamond we want and how much we want to spend so I don't think we're going to settle for either of those two diamonds just because they are available!

One more question - I saw this loose diamond on blue nile. It seems to fit our criteria pretty well. The only problem is that we can't see it! But blue nile have a return policy so it might be a potential candidate. If we buy this diamond we will get a local jeweller to set it on a ring.

Does this diamond seem ok to you:

Carat weight: 0.87

Cut: Very Good

Colour: E

Clarity: VVS2

Price per carat: EUR 2,864

Depth %: 67.3%

Table %: 70%

Symmetry: Very good

Polish: Excellent

Girdle: Thin to medium

Culet: None

Fluorescence: None

Measurements: 6.29 x 5.13 x 3.45 mm

Length/width ratio: 1.23

Thanks again for all your help!

[davidelevi]

Nothing that rings alarm bells, but:-

1. It's definitely NOT a square. If you like the rectangular look, it may be for you, but the setting you had in mind on your first post seemed to be thought for a square stone.

2. Bear in mind that in addition to the price listed, there's VAT and courier fees. No import duty is payable into the EU for loose stones, but set stones attract duty of 2.5% as well. Also get some information as to whether any VAT or duty will be refunded should you ship the stone back; I suspect not.

3. If you plan to go shopping online, given cost and risk involved in shipping things back and forth, I'd consider picking a supplier that has inventory or that will look at the stone before it is shipped to you to make sure that the cut is good, that no bow-tie is present, that any very thin portions of the girdle aren't posing a risk when setting, ...

Blue Nile will not check the stone for you, for the simple reason that they never have it (they "drop-ship" asking the manufacturer to ship directly to you). However, many people that sell via internet do call the stone in or own it outright. Blue Nile has enormous availability and competitive prices, but they may not necessarily be the best supplier for someone in your situation.

4. Think about the ring, who would supply it and who would set the stone. While many jewellers will be happy to set a client-provided stone, very few (if any) will accept any responsibility for damage, since their own insurance will not cover them.

[D.Enaky]

Hello everyone
I am relatively new to the reels, but I have won a courting feather, and was looking to see if anyone had any reels that might be interested in getting together to make an egg for me?

Post or PM, either is fine. Thank you in advance