27 replies to this topic

[edman]

I'm in Atlanta looking at an 2.01 H/SI2 round diamond. Naked eye looks beautiful. Magnified, still looks good with a few inclusions. Really quite clean. Beautifully cut also.

The dealer wants $11,300, set in a pretty 6 prong white gold setting. Very "Tiffany-like"

The diamond has a Crown Report, which is a local office in Israel. The dealer says
they are very strict and quite picky with their ratings.

This dealer does also carry EGL and GIA diamonds. So he does have others to choose from.

Questions are, is the price good?
Is the certification good enough?

Not sure what to do here. Help!

[Adylon]

That's an expensive stone to buy without proper paperwork. Why doesn't he send it to the GIA to be graded, have you asked him that? What are the specs on the stone besides carat, color, clarity? Like depth, table, crown/pavillion, overall measurements, polish, symmetry, etc.?

Buying a stone with a major lab report doesn't just mean it's accurately graded on color/clarity. They also have extensive testing to be sure the stone is a natural diamond without treatments.

If I had to guess, I'd say that it's bottom heavy. But it could be anything.... for example, maybe it's a used stone, and there's a chip somewhere that if graded would drag the clarity down to I1, and he doesn't want to re-cut it because it would be less then 2 carats and drop significantly in value. Who knows what you're getting when you don't have a properly graded stone. I'm not trying to scare you or anything, but there's a very good reason why people trust these labs

If you do buy it, please be sure to at least have an independant appraiser look at it.

[diamondsbylauren]

Hi edman,
Whoever is showing you this diamond had given us some very important information.
What we've learned is more about the way the seller is representing than anything else- including the diamond.


There's only TWO labs which dealers consider accurate enough to base prices on- they are AGS, and GIA.
By making the statment about the totally unknown lab, and implying the diamond is "certified", they have shown no regard to the truth.
The price of a legitimately graded 2 carat well cut H/SI2 round diamond is a lot more than you were quoted.


I'd use the info provided to rule out this seller.

[edman]

I stand corrected and was off on the info. Sorry.
I've attached a JPG of the Report.

It's actually a 2.01 J-SI2.

Table: 61
Depth: 67.7

He just mentioned that it was a new stone and that the plotting can be added.

Please let me know what you think now.

Thank you so very much.

Attached Thumbnails

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[denverappraiser]

Offer this:

I really like the stone. I really want to buy it but I'm worried about the lab. You send it to GIA for grading. If it comes back H/SI2 with VG or better cutting, I’ll buy it, as well as covering all of the the fees from GIA and the shipping both ways. I’ll even pay an extra $100 for your trouble. If it comes back less on any one of those 3 attributes, you pay the bills, and you keep the stone. ($154 to GIA, $50 or so in shipping each way and $100 to the jeweler means this’ll cost you less than $400 if he accepts). As David points out, this is a bargain if what he says is true.

GIA is reporting a 7 day turnaround time at the moment. in Carlsbad.

Dollars to donuts he doesn’t accept this offer, despite the fact that it costs him nothing and he stands to get $11,000 if only what he’s telling you is true. You're even giving him a hundred bucks to pack a box. What does this tell you about his own confidence in his own chosen lab? If he doesn’t believe the lab, why should you? Equally importantly, if he is trying to get you to believe a lab that he himself doesn’t trust, why should you believe HIM?

Neil

[edman]

Hi Neil,

I just posted the actual Report.
Please note, I actually typed incorrect info on the initial posting.

Stone is actually 2.12 J/SI2.

Please let me know your thoughts now.

Thank you!

denverappraiser, on Friday, Jun 20 2008, 01:03 PM, said:

Offer this:

I really like the stone. I really want to buy it but I'm worried about the lab. You send it to GIA for grading. If it comes back H/SI2 with VG or better cutting, I’ll buy it, as well as covering all of the the fees from GIA and the shipping both ways. I’ll even pay an extra $100 for your trouble. If it comes back less on any one of those 3 attributes, you pay the bills, and you keep the stone. ($154 to GIA, $50 or so in shipping each way and $100 to the jeweler means this’ll cost you less than $400 if he accepts). As David points out, this is a bargain if what he says is true.

GIA is reporting a 7 day turnaround time at the moment. in Carlsbad.

Dollars to donuts he doesn’t accept this offer, despite the fact that it costs him nothing and he stands to get $11,000 if only what he’s telling you is true. You're even giving him a hundred bucks to pack a box. What does this tell you about his own confidence in his own chosen lab? If he doesn’t believe the lab, why should you? Equally importantly, if he is trying to get you to believe a lab that he himself doesn’t trust, why should you believe HIM?

Neil

[denverappraiser]

The difference between H & J is important. That's still a decent price if the information is correct but it's not a great bargain. You still might want to make the offer if you love the stone but you might want to drop off the $100 bribe. If it's wrong and, for example, if it's an undocumented K-I1, it's quite expensive. The concept still holds that if he's not willing to bet on the lab, you shouldn't either.

By the way, assuming that GIA agrees with the information provided, the highest cut grade available is Fair. 67.7% depth with a Poor symmetry are not what most people would include in 'beautifully cut'.

Can you give us a zoom in on that 'guarantee'. I"m really curious what the fine print says.

Neil

Edited by denverappraiser, 20 June 2008 - 09:28 AM.

[edman]

I just got an email from the dealer of the 2.01 H/SI2. This stone is EGL certified.

He has agreed to $11,000 completely set in 3-6 prong white 14k.

Is the price good, or can I do better?
Do I pick this over the other 2.01 J/SI2 $11,300 Crown certified stone?

I'm just trying to get a pretty stone at a good/fair price.

Thanks,
Ed

[denverappraiser]

All of the advice above applies to EGL as well.

Neil

[edman]

The Guarantee says this:

The Crown Report Guarantee.

We gurantee that our diamond grading will match a leading Independant Laboratory.
Some restrictions apply. See back of report.

Signature,
Graduate Gemologist, GIA

That's what I can read.

denverappraiser, on Friday, Jun 20 2008, 01:15 PM, said:

The difference between H & J is important. That's still a decent price if the information is correct but it's not a great bargain. You still might want to make the offer if you love the stone but you might want to drop off the $100 bribe. If it's wrong and, for example, if it's an undocumented K-I1, it's quite expensive. The concept still holds that if he's not willing to bet on the lab, you shouldn't either.

By the way, assuming that GIA agrees with the symmetry grade, the highest cut grade available is Fair.

Can you give us a zoom in on that 'guarantee'. I"m really curious what the fine print says.

Neil

[denverappraiser]

edman, on Friday, Jun 20 2008, 01:30 PM, said:

Some restrictions apply.

I bet.

Neil

[Feydakin]

denverappraiser, on Friday, Jun 20 2008, 01:34 PM, said:

edman, on Friday, Jun 20 2008, 01:30 PM, said:

Some restrictions apply.

I bet.

Neil

As Neil said, if it's not GIA or AGS then make the offer he suggested to send it to GIA and if it comes back as previously graded you pay the expenses and buy the stone, anything less than that and you are free to walk away or still buy it, your choice..

[diamondsbylauren]

It's remarkable how people are drawn to rip off artists.

What part about the "cerificate " meaning NOTHING - ( short of the fact that whoever is offering it is not interesting in telling the truth) did you NOT get???

Whyt would someone want to spend $11k with a seller who's so clearly misleading?

[jan]

Besides not having an AGS or GIA grading report, the stone is measuring out about like a well cut 1 70-1.75 ct. That means the stone is very deep and probably going to have an overall dark (nailhead) look.

I would pass on that stone and learn more about the cut grade of diamonds before I spent my hard earned dollars on a stone like that one. You are about to make a huge mistake.

[edman]

David,

I think you must take into consideration that the majority of people that look into these
sorts of sites are obviously layperson's when it come to the entire industry.

You obviously are in the industry. I think you could be a little more forgiving in the
way you critique the handling of an emotional choice like this one.

If you were a Doctor, would you have an absolutely deplorable bedside manner also?

As a matter of fact, if you have nothing positive to say like the other members,
I'd rather you not reply.

diamondsbylauren, on Friday, Jun 20 2008, 02:28 PM, said:

It's remarkable how people are drawn to rip off artists.

What part about the "cerificate " meaning NOTHING - ( short of the fact that whoever is offering it is not interesting in telling the truth) did you NOT get???

Whyt would someone want to spend $11k with a seller who's so clearly misleading?

[Adylon]

edman, on Friday, Jun 20 2008, 12:02 PM, said:

I stand corrected and was off on the info. Sorry.
I've attached a JPG of the Report.

It's actually a 2.01 J-SI2.

Table: 61
Depth: 67.7

He just mentioned that it was a new stone and that the plotting can be added.

Please let me know what you think now.

Thank you so very much.

Ah Ha! I knew it, a very deep cut bottom heavy stone. I would never buy a round brilliant at 65% depth never mind 67-68%.

As Jan said, properly cut that rough should have really been in the 1.6-1.8ct range.

There's a very good reason that stone was not sent to the GIA or AGS, and that is because it would not quality for Excellent Cut, nor Very Good, not even Good. It would have been rated Fair or Poor.

I'd definitely pass on this stone. Always go for top cut first, color and clarity second (based on your preferences), and then get the carat weight you can afford last. And make sure all the above are graded accurately by a reputable lab. And for a 2 carat size I'd stick with AGS and GIA.

Edited by Adylon, 20 June 2008 - 11:11 AM.

[Adylon]

PS - I also find it funny that they have a Cut Scale on that "lab report" going from Excellent to Poor, yet the Cut is not mentioned anywhere on the report itself.

[edman]

Yosef,

Can you give me a range of Top Cut (depth/table) I should stay within?

I believe once I have that down, my choice can be truly educated.

Thank you!

Adylon, on Friday, Jun 20 2008, 03:09 PM, said:

edman, on Friday, Jun 20 2008, 12:02 PM, said:

I stand corrected and was off on the info. Sorry.
I've attached a JPG of the Report.

It's actually a 2.01 J-SI2.

Table: 61
Depth: 67.7

He just mentioned that it was a new stone and that the plotting can be added.

Please let me know what you think now.

Thank you so very much.

Ah Ha! I knew it, a very deep cut bottom heavy stone. I would never buy a round brilliant at 65% depth never mind 67-68%.

As Jan said, properly cut that rough should have really been in the 1.6-1.8ct range.

There's a very good reason that stone was not sent to the GIA or AGS, and that is because it would not quality for Excellent Cut, nor Very Good, not even Good. It would have been rated Fair or Poor.

I'd definitely pass on this stone. Always go for top cut first, color and clarity second (based on your preferences), and then get the carat weight you can afford last. And make sure all the above are graded accurately by a reputable lab. And for a 2 carat size I'd stick with AGS and GIA.

[denverappraiser]

diamondsbylauren, on Friday, Jun 20 2008, 02:28 PM, said:

It's remarkable how people are drawn to rip off artists.

What part about the "cerificate " meaning NOTHING - ( short of the fact that whoever is offering it is not interesting in telling the truth) did you NOT get???

Whyt would someone want to spend $11k with a seller who's so clearly misleading?

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Not that he needs my help, but in defense of David, sometimes bedside manner isn’t what’s called for, either in a doctor or on an Internet diamond forum. In the case of doctors, I’m far more interested in my doctor producing the right diagnosis and treatment than how well she sugar coats it for me. I guess that’s why they have so many specialties. I’ll take an asshole surgeon who can cut straight any day over one with cheerful bedside manner who only gets it right some of the time.

He's said nothing in this post that I don't agree with although you're correct that I phrase things a little differently.

Neil

[Adylon]

edman, on Friday, Jun 20 2008, 02:17 PM, said:

Yosef,

Can you give me a range of Top Cut (depth/table) I should stay within?

I believe once I have that down, my choice can be truly educated.

Thank you!

Just speaking in generalities, most well cut rounds are in the 59-63% depth and 51-62% table range. But those are VERY rough figures and do not guarantee a well cut stone. There's a lot that goes into a well cut round brilliant, pages and pages to read.

However the major labs have made it very easy for you since round brilliant is the best selling and most studied/analyzed shape of them all. All the major labs now offer an Overall Cut Grade. GIA's highest is Excellent. AGS's highest is Ideal. You really can't go wrong by buying either one. Some value the AGS0-Ideal as the "most perfect ideal round cut" but you can rest assured if you do buy a GIA Excellent that it will at least be worth top dollar and cut well above average and look very nice.

Start with a GIA EX or AGS ID and work your way backwards to get the best possible stone in your budget. Leave carat weight as the very last criteria. If you need any help please let me know.

Best of luck

Yosef

Edited by Adylon, 20 June 2008 - 11:36 AM.